Scrapper vs Brute?
The Brute will not be doing 250% more damage than a Scrapper, it will be doing more but not that much more.
Scrapper damage at cap = 1.125 damage scale * (100% + ~10% chance of critical) * 500% damage cap = 6.19 Brute damage at cap = 0.75 damage scale * 850% damage cap = 6.38 The Brute damage cap is 350% higher but with that 350% it will only be doing a bit more. |
I have no idea what happened really. My mind decided to just vomit a sentence out.
In this case, you won't fine the brute out performing the scrapper. And you won't find the scrapper outperforming the brute. The only real reason to switch once you've started one is to play different content with essentually the same toon.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
In this case, you won't fine the brute out performing the scrapper. And you won't find the scrapper outperforming the brute. The only real reason to switch once you've started one is to play different content with essentually the same toon.
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Plus the whole feel of fury over crits. That's quite a different experience.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Really, as far as survivability goes, the only advantage the brute will have is higher hit points. Once you're softcapped the only noticible difference you'll find is that enemies have to get lucky more times in a row to drop the brute.
This is assuming you're considering Fire/Shield for both characters.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I would just like to say this thread is fantastic
and I applaud all of you who have participated.
The information & opinions offered by you all in this thread are very much appreciated.
The simple answer right now i'd give you is, do you want to be the hero or the villian? Pick that and roll accordingly. You can't go wrong with either.
After GR, or heck, even now i guess, since you can just shift him later, it'll boil down to the machanics more then now. As it is now, brutes act as presto tanks red side, but after GR that won't nessessirly be true. At which point, IMO, the 4 melee classes in the game become more like 2 different classes. Tanks, and the guys that kill stuff in slightly different ways.
Brutes will be a smidge tougher, with higher HP and better caps, but have less burst damage, and around about the same sustained damage as a scrapper assuming they maintain furry. Much better damage if buffed. IMO making them better teammates as team buffs go further with them. (tanker level caps and 850% damage cap) AoE about equal to a scrapper since they share powers. Higher if buffed obviously. Well buffed brutes can tank like tanks if built for it.
Scrapper will become the middle all arounders. Good defence, good damage, both burts and sustained, and AOE. Good soloer, Good teamer. Just a good toon to play. Can tank, but isn't what i'd consider "good" at it.
Stalkers become the lower defence, higer burst damage dealers. Noone out burst damages a well build stalker. They suffer defencively as a result. As a result, I'd never consider even trying to tank with one.
With tanks being the meatshields. Lowest damage but highest defencive values. And, IMO, like stalkers, and kind of limited to one roll. While brutes CAN tank, and even some scrappers, tanks cannot match brutes or scrappers in terms of damage. Assuming of course you pair a well build scrapper/brute to an equally well built tank.
Since you can be a fire/shield in 3 or the 4 catogries, you have a real desision to make. Hope my prespective may help a bit.
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It seems to boil down to who likes what. I dont have a brute, but i know soft capped, with nice rech, an elce/sd scrapper is awesome.
Scrapper damage for me goes like this: 850ish hp of damage dealt with Melt Armor+BU+AAO+SC. Then LR hits to clean up if anything is left standing. At even level cons, SC clears a whole mob x8.
How does a brute compare? What kind of damage are you seeing with them?
Yep brilliant discussion!
I am sticking with the Scrapper as my main melee character and hope to take him to 50. I have never had a 50 and i have clocked up almost 2 years vet rewards. The answers offered here are what gave me the motivation to stay with my best guy and not re-roll yet again
I cannot wait for GR when we get to see how it works with the melee classes being slightly different. I am interested in particular to see how Brutes like teaming with a real Tanker hehe. But, I will be there as a Scrapper!
Don't limit yourself to playing just one character. This game is built around being alt-friendly. Why not make a scrapper and a brute? I prefer melee, and I love both scrappers and brutes and I have tons of both.
I would also remind you that tankers and brutes have been able to team for quite some time in co-op zones, so there won't be to much change. I doubt it will be game breaking dynamics, because (unlike what many people believe) brutes are not tankers.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
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Don't limit yourself to playing just one character. This game is built around being alt-friendly. Why not make a scrapper and a brute? I prefer melee, and I love both scrappers and brutes and I have tons of both.
I would also remind you that tankers and brutes have been able to team for quite some time in co-op zones, so there won't be to much change. I doubt it will be game breaking dynamics, because (unlike what many people believe) brutes are not tankers. |
Depending on how the population picks up red side after i17 and Demon Summoning today, i might make another Brute just for the hell of it.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
I'd also like to add the one and only reason I prefer Scrappers to Brutes...
Critical Hit!
Not game breaking, but when GR hits it may take a bit of adjustment for some people. Tankers having to follow the Brute's lead in leveling up missions so it can set the pace for example.
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I think Tanker ego will be the biggest issue here.
On co-op teams I find some Tankers understand their role very well, which is to leverage their survivability to allow the support characters to survive.
Other tankers misunderstand the role, and get into some sort of bizarre ego contest where they continually try to taunt mobs off of Brutes who are clearly designed to break and survive large spawns.
Usually this is at the expense of the squishies, who are left to their own defenses in the back field as the Brute and Tanker jockey for aggro against each other. Which is just counterproductive for everyone.
Someone once put together a mathematical arguement that Brutes do, on average, 3% more damage than scrappers.
So really the difference between the two isn't so wide.
"I accidently killed Synapse, do we need to restart the mission?" - The Oldest One on Lord Recluses Strike Force
They don't have to follow the Brute, but Brute's will most certainly add impetus to most groups to move faster.
I think Tanker ego will be the biggest issue here. On co-op teams I find some Tankers understand their role very well, which is to leverage their survivability to allow the support characters to survive. Other tankers misunderstand the role, and get into some sort of bizarre ego contest where they continually try to taunt mobs off of Brutes who are clearly designed to break and survive large spawns. Usually this is at the expense of the squishies, who are left to their own defenses in the back field as the Brute and Tanker jockey for aggro against each other. Which is just counterproductive for everyone. |
I find that the more the tanker has had experience in cross-faction activities (Imperious/Lady Grey/Mothership raids, etc) the more they learn to trust brutes to survive, and to understand that the brute NEEDS that aggro in order to deal the damage the team needs the brute to be dealing. It's pretty much the Tankers who have limited exposure to villain mechanics who don't understand the two can be very complimentary.
In an ideal team with both a brute and a tanker the brute is holding minion/lieut group aggro for fury, the tanker has all the most dangerous enemies locked down and the squishies are free to unload at will knowing the tank can step in if anything even looks at them the wrong way. It's very nice when it works. Really lets you run on max difficulty with an idiot like me on the team =)
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Very good point.
I find that the more the tanker has had experience in cross-faction activities (Imperious/Lady Grey/Mothership raids, etc) the more they learn to trust brutes to survive, and to understand that the brute NEEDS that aggro in order to deal the damage the team needs the brute to be dealing. It's pretty much the Tankers who have limited exposure to villain mechanics who don't understand the two can be very complimentary. |
The two together can lockdown a huge amount of mobs, and I'll often see well played tankers with great situational awareness, often dropping out of the main fight to peel off any mob overflow assist the support section.
I just got my first brute to 50, and I gotta say that I'd rather have crits than maintain fury. Solo it's a wash, but when your in groups who never seem to run at my same pace or have other guys battling me for fury, keeping it full can be troublesome to say the least.
Crits > Fury
I just got my first brute to 50, and I gotta say that I'd rather have crits than maintain fury. Solo it's a wash, but when your in groups who never seem to run at my same pace or have other guys battling me for fury, keeping it full can be troublesome to say the least.
Crits > Fury |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
I forget the %, but you don't need it full. At 65% I think you're doing the same or more damage as a scrapper after crits. at 100% you're doing a fair bit more.
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80ish is generally what you'll hover at mid-combat.
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
They simply die too fast for "DPS" to matter. Many high DPA attacks can outright kill even level minions.
When was the last time you were able to go through a full top tier attack chain on a lieutenant?
Critical Hits are burst damage and when they go off effectively double the DPA of that attack, and speed up the demise of lesser enemies in a way that DPS simply doesn't.
Now you can average out criticals over time, and calculate that into DPS, but Fury doesn't have the same burst damage that Critical Hits does.
Which is also, incidentally, part of the appeal of Shield Charge vs. Damage Auras - only on a massive (and probably unbalanced) scale.
Here's a couple of interesting quotes that are similar to how I feel about Fury vs. Criticals.
Originally Posted by Julius Seizure
Sustained DPS =/= burst damage.
A Brute with access to Build Up, Soul Drain, FU/BF, red pills, or external +damage that's on a timer simply does not pump out the burst damage that a Scrapper can. This is an important distinction that places the Scrapper as more of a hybrid between Stalkers and Brutes if viewed through "red" glasses, while the Brute is a hybrid between a Tanker and a Scrapper if viewed with "blue" glasses. Both the Brute and Scrapper AT possess multiple attributes and abilities that fall somewhere in between their respective bookends from the other faction. Looking at everything through a lens that only values sustained DPS denies Scrappers one of their primary roles-- an ability to leverage burst damage against Bosses and Lts. There's also the issue of realistic external +damage in a team setting. |
Originally Posted by Julius Seizure
While on this tangent, I've always viewed the Melee ATs in a gradient as such:
Tank <> Brute <> Scrapper <> Stalker At one end you have survivability and agro management. At the other end you have burst damage. There is a clean progression of such capability in both directions when the melee ATs are viewed like this, survivability and burst damage being inversely proportional. In the middle you have the DPS classes, the Scrapper and the Brute. I don't think it should be a shock that the two ATs have similar DPS, as was shown by Bill Z. |
It's a very interesting idea.
Every single DPS calculation I've ever done is based on a single target attack chain against a hard target.
When I'm playing either my scrappers or my brutes on teams, those single target chains mean precisely nothing unless we're dealing with +conned bosses, AVs, monsters and the like.
On Bill, on an 8man team, my chain is going to be followup, spin, shockwave, repeat. On Louis I'll be throwing out shadow maul and dark obliteration every time they're up.
The point? Burst damage doesn't mean much in a team anyway. Any halfway decently built team not run by incompetents is going to be steamrolling through content to the point that no one, and I mean NO ONE, would notice the difference if a DM/SD scrapper was suddenly replaced with a DM/SD brute.
The spawns aren't going to disappear any faster or slower either way.
It is ONLY when solo against a hard target that we can get into the nitty gritty of ST attack chains and average DPS.
There are two "Results" threads in the scrapper forum. The first one was based on fully IOed out builds with ridiculous recharge and an average 10% crits for scrappers.
The second was based on using basic IOs and a 7.5% crit chance.
In both threads, while brutes tend to come out on top, the differences are small enough to disregard.
Brutes are faster to solo pre-SO, they have higher base HP and can leverage inspiration use better due to higher mitigation caps. At the damage caps, they pull ahead further from scrappers, but how often do you really run around with 750 damage buff showing in your combat monitor unless you're runnin at x8 diff with a pocket kin?
Be well, people of CoH.
Hello folks.
I have a lvl 39 fire/shield scrapper but after taking a long break I am thinking of starting a new character and would go with a similar fire/shield brute. Which would I rather have at end-game? I hear that the fury bonus affecting burn damage is worthwhile, and that critical hits not affecting it makes that a little less effective. What about the bonus damage cap? Thanks to the mechanics of fury doesnt a Brute get a much higher cap and therefore more effective with the right SOs? Then again, a Scrapper doesn't need to build up fury and can hit for higher numbers right away. What about Ancillary/Patron powers? Which one has better and while I am asking which are the best for each? Thanks if you have read this far! |
There was a thread a while ago comparing the sets DPS, brute won on just about every test, this wasnt with 100% fury either.
I cant find the link right now, but if this is correct it means brute would be better hands down, simply because Brutes have a higher resist/defence cap than scrappers as well.
Patrons for brutes also wipe the floor with scrappers, plus brute with a pet? yes please.
Although that wont matter much anyway with going rogue coming around
What works in Brutes favor is the DoT from Fire Melee is effected by Fury and is not affected by Crits.
If AAO was equal strength on a brute ie 19.38 w/ 1 enemy, 81.3 w/ saturation instead of 15.5 /w 1 enemy, 65 w/ saturation their damage would be much closer. Scrapper would still edge it out, but brute has a lot more survivability.
If Shield Charge was able to use the brute ability to have low damage leverage by ridiculous damage caps it would be more in line with the scrapper version. Unfortunately, a brute just has sneeze at a spawn and they can hit the ceiling on SC. The result is that scrapper SC ends up being nearly 1.5x as good as the brute version. When you consider brute SC is already crazy good and then make it 50% better than that well....
*The same thing can be seen in defenders vs corruptors except in their case it is the AT that starts out lower and without crits that has the much stronger buff scalar. The result is that soul draining defenders can actually surpass average corr damage even with scourge taken into account. It helps that def soul drain recharges in half the time of the corr version, but that is a different discussion.