Technique, Numbers, and Knockback

Do you want the game to be about technique or numbers?

I recently made a character named Goblin Knight. She's a claws/electric scrapper on Victory, whom I've been slotting extremely offensively. Electric isn't terribly durable in and of itself anyway, so it makes sense to me to make a melee character who relies on sheer damage for survivability in rough situations.

As always, I find I like characters that rely on finesse rather than mathmatical superiority. Accordingly, being quick in battle and making the right choices is much more entertaining to me rather than simply hitting '1, 2, 3' and zoning out as I've heard some players say.

As Goblin Knight has grown, I've found myself developing tactics that both fit the character's image and allow her to win fights that she'd otherwise not be able to if she simply waded in and tanked the enemies that came to her. For example, after agroing a group of high-melee damage enemies such as redcaps, she'll leap back and use Shockwave to knock them back and off their feet. This gives her a second or so to do more damage to them without them being able to attack.

It's an extremely effective technique and relies on careful positioning, twitch decision-making, and quick reflexes.

(I also do well at the ski slope event every winter.)

It's also EXACTLY the kind of tactic that pisses off knockback-haters since it requires meleers to move around to attack their enemies. It somewhat reduces the effectiveness of AOE powers in terms of the number of enemies they can hit at once.

It occurs that I'm looking at perhaps the underlying cause of knockback hate. It's a difference between what players think the game should be about-- combat technique or mathematical superiority.

The purest kinds of 'technique games' are fighters and shooters. These games rely almost solely on reflex and twitch decision-making. The purest kinds of 'numbers games' are turn-based resource-management games and RPGs. They rely almost solely on planning. Most games fall somewhere in between the two extremes. Pure turn-based games are pretty rare these days and almost all of them incorporate at least some mechanics that allow for technique to play a winning role. Likewise, modern fighters and shooters have mechanics that allow planning skills and number crunching to come to the fore.

City of Heroes lies right about the middle of the spectrum. A player can approach it from either a technique or numbers direction and be successful.

The opinions I've heard from knockback haters indicate to me that they fall into the latter group. The math works out the best and has the least chance for failure if every player on a team goes by a script. By spending lots of money on their character build, they can ensure a high-rate of survivability with a repetitive strategy. On the extreme end of things, this allows a player to wade into a farm mission and get a certain amount of exp and drops per hour.

I do not fit into that group. I find it boring, numbing, and conducive to agriculture. It is in no way relaxing or entertaining for me to play that way.

I do certainly see myself in the former group, which is entertained by learning against different kinds of enemies and trying and sometimes failing to find new and exciting ways to overcome them. On the extreme end of this side of the spectrum are PVPers, in which tactics are key to victory. It surprised me to realize this since I really don't care for PVP.

I think it's very arguable that the most successful players are those who don't ignore either the planning or technique aspects of the game. That goes no matter how you apply it. Both the pure farmer and hardcore PVPer do better at their chosen activity if they understand the other.

Accordingly, to keep the game fun and entertaining for the widest variety of players, both the game developers AND game players should resist efforts to allow the balance between technique and numbers to shift.

It's easy for ME to say that knockback haters should not make efforts to discourage players from tossing their foes around. However, that goes both ways. I should not make efforts to discourage people from doing the math and choosing effective playstyles and builds ahead of time.

Likewise, players who enjoy the technique and finesse side of the game should resist the temptation to encourage the developers to make the game more about technique and less about numbers. Players who enjoy the numbers and control side of the game should resist the temptation to encourage the developers to make the game less about technique and more about numbers.

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Now, all that said, knockback is fun. You haters should try it. You might like it.

I recently encountered a very apologetic energy blaster while I was playing one of my tanks. He was apologising in team chat about the knockback and how he wished energy blast didn't have it, and then he specifically sent me a tell apologising. Then he apparently couldn't accept it when I said in no uncertain terms that I was absolutely undisturbed by it and sent me another tell apologising again and saying he knows how much it sucks being a melee character and having enemies knocked around like that.

As far as I'm concerned, if they're knocked back, that's time they're not attacking me or anyone else. I can either chase them down and get some free licks in or turn to the nearest convenient target and assault them instead. I played a 'port-less Stone/Battle Axe Tanker for awhile and never complained about having to chase enemies down despite being Rooted (though I have complained about the power Rooted and its inability to traverse the tiniest bumps at times). Generally speaking, of course. I have encountered some few players with certain toggles that can make battles quite a headache.

Knockback is entertaining when you are the one dealing it, you can predict, and react more rapidly when you're the source.

It's frustrating when you're melee and you're constantly having to move and adjust because someone else is throwing your targets around from somewhere you can't see, because you're focused on the mobs around you and which is the biggest threat.

It also has an impact on the damage output of other melee toons. The way the game's set up, constantly having to move into position will take a bite out of your damage output, and when damage output is your prime function then it's not going to be popular.

And then there's the issue of knocking mobs out of a tankers aggro aura. reacquiring aggro in that situation isn't always a trivial issue fr stone tanks, for example.

Oops, time to go to work. All the above IMO, of course.

It's all fun and good to talk about technique vs. numbers, but City of Heroes does most decidedly NOT lie right in the middle of the spectrum. It's a pure numbers game that just occasionally allow for some creative thinking. But it's still a numbers game. Knockback just happens to be a number that's less rigidly defined.

I still remember the old arguments and the "Use Tac-Tics!" Tic-Tacs spoof, but that simply makes a difference far too rarely. If anything, I'd say it's more knowledge of the system than any specific technique, which in itself is just another side of planning. You know not to be dumb enough to mass-immobilize the things slipping on your Ice Patch, you know not to be dumb enough to chase things you knocked back into another spawn, and you know that enemies afflicted with Afraid effects are not worth chasing after. That's not technique, that's knowledge of how things work.

I'm sorry, Moo, but hitting things with shockwave so they go flat on their *****, while very smart I'll grant you that, isn't really technique. It's the basic function of knockback. It's like saying I can use Force Bolt to keep a knockback-susceptible EB down on the ground probably 75% of the time is technique. It's not. It's what the power is designed to do. I could probably possibly see the ability to control which direction you knock them in as technique, but even that's pushing it.

We still do have a few avenues for technique, of course. Force-Bubbling an entire spawn into a tight corner so that they can eat massive AoE damage and die within seconds (true story) would probably count, since I guess the point of Force Bubble is more to keep things out of melee range, but again - it relies on having a convenient corner in the right place. By the same token, Wormholing enemies onto Trip Mines or into a Tar Patch or into a corner could probably pass for technique, since Wormhole's point seems to have been retrofitted into that of a AoE stun, but this exact practice is what it was made for back in the day. I will freely admit that a Mastermind who uses Black Hole whose entire henchman entourage wipes IS using good technique, if for no reason other than because people keep insisting Black Hole sucks (no pun intended), but that still skirts the line of knowledge.

Basically, technique, skill or whatever you want to call it is the ability to do something that's difficult, but known. You know HOW to beat Web Spider, because it's fairly obvious, but it's just HARD to pull off. I don't think very much anything in this game is actually hard to pull off as long as you know WHAT you have to do. Straight-line knockback is decidedly not on such aspect. In fact, people complain about scatter-shot knockback specifically because it's a cheap form of control that happens to be disruptive. I'd say the only way you could call using it "technique" is if you manage to use it WITHOUT causing scatter, which is actually possible, if not exactly easy to pull off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Of course, you could always make the claim that it's less about tactics and twitch play and more about your twitch play making my twitch play less effective. I generally don't enjoy knockback because it forces me to do something that I wouldn't have had to do otherwise and wouldn't have had to do had said twitch player gone through the effort to position themselves to minimize the negative impact of their knockback. I love knockback when it's used with discrimination and for the benefit of the group. I hate it when it's used indiscriminately and ends up generating more work for the rest of the team because of the lack of consideration by that party.

Keep in mind that I actually enjoy twitch play. I love it. My favorite survivability set is */Regen specifically because it requires skill rather than math (that, as is almost always the case, someone else did). One of the big reasons I like */Regen is because I don't force anyone else to make up for my twitch play beyond what is expected from everyone else. I've long been encouraging the devs to design more sets akin to modern */Regen where the constant powers only serve to provide a decent base for your numerous short term, but powerful click powers to provide a majority of your survivability.

Of course, you're using some semantically loaded terms. Twitch play, as I see it, refers to the use of powers with very specific situational precision. */Regen is a twitch play set: whether I use a power this moment (and which power I use) or the next can mean the difference between my surviving and my dying. Situational awareness and spot decision making are key. Intelligent use of knockback is less about twitch play and more about positioning: if you put your target between yourself and a wall, you've got him where you want him. There is less twitch decision making and more just placing yourself intelligently and repositioning yourself if the situation changes drastically. If you use a power 1 second too late, it's not likely that you're going to bite it.

What MOO describes is more of a difference between solo and team tactics with squishier characters. I know if I solo for a while then team some of my "default" tactics is highly frowned upon by PUGs whose only tactic is to bum rush the next mob once the current mob is down to one or two damaged minions.

My gameplay isn't about grinding to the next level or getting or drops it's the mission and supporting the team. Nothing is worse than the blaster that pulls boss aggro and then runs away from the rest of the team where if he stayed close the tank or scrapper can cover him. I like to imagine the battles as how I would like to see them portrayed in a movie. Stick together, cover each other, retreat in mass if needed.

Knockback is just another form of damage mitigation, like any other mez in game. If they are falling on their backsides or flung across the room that's X seconds of them not trying to hit you. It's a good thing. But often times enough the impatient player believes damage dealing is the best damage mitigation. A defeated critter isn't going to hit you anymore so the faster you defeat them, the less damage you receive. Of course this is usually offset by a suicidal tendency to rush the next mob before the rest of the team is ready or cranking the difficulty up so in the long run you still are damaged by the same amount, it's just spread over more critters.

I like knockback. Two of the characters that were part of my formative experience learning the game were a Forcefield/Energy Blast defender and an Ice/Storm Controller.

I never understood the complaints about single-target knockback. If I Crane-Kick a guy and for some reason forgot to aim him into a wall, I will go chase him down and finish him -- I'm a Scrapper, I kill stuff, it's my problem, why would that bother anyone? Yet I have heard complaints about that, weirdly.

But I do realize that area knockback can be an irritant. It scatters groups often quite badly. Few things are as baffling as lining up one's big cone attack only to have the foes all swept away and scattered (usually by a low-damage attack, too).

You can use altitude and angle to greatly reduce the irritating aspects of area knockback. You can also use timing. Either go first or (better still) last -- don't wait until the tanker has gathered a crowd tightly around him to abruptly undo his efforts, go before he's done the work of clumping them or (much better) as a finishing move when they're whittled down and your attack will defeat them.

For some reason Peacebringers are the worst for this. I have a (low-level) Peacebringer and he has only one area knockback attack so far -- do they get more, or are they doing all the scatter with that one attack? They seem to always wait JUST until everyone is targeting the clump or just BEFORE the area debuff or control hits to scatter everything.

I recently teamed with a dedicated knockback specialist in "hardcore" mode, where any defeat is treated as permanent (the character will be deleted from the SG if he or she is defeated). You'd think that would be extra scary, since we always hear about knockback endangering the team. Truth is, it probably helped a lot by providing mitigation to our low-level characters. My melee character (Broadsword Scrapper) occasionally saw the targets swept out of his Slice cone, but that was only sort of startling; it wasn't very dangerous. I guess I adapted mentally to the unusual requirements of our playstyle making every scrap of mitigation valuable.

But generally, I can see how area knockback irritates. Used thoughtfully, though, it's pretty easy to put up with unless one is just emotional about knockback generally...like say, if your parents were killed by knockback.

Although that might have the reverse effect, come to think of it, and cause you to take on the identity of the Knock-Bat, who knows AoE users are a superstitious, cowardly lot, and sets out to terrorize teammates and rearrange evildoers across Paragon City!

My KB is used either defensively or offensively, on a melee character it's perhaps to alpha the enemy instead and gain aggro and this could be on someone silly's behalf. Otherwise directed towards corners, secondarily walls and then maybe thirdly used/not used for the benefit of other peoples characters. Depending on whose in team I can guess at what kind of scatter I can create. KB is a tool for control as much as it is a tool to cause less of it. Some players open with a -kb mass immob and so my cone kb is held back on until that's been used. Even peoples taunt auras can be turned off for the benefit of the team at times. DPS could be lowered by one person to help better ensure the survivability of an entire team so that the entire team maintains their DPS. Not everything should be used because it's available. Techniques can be good or bad without the numbers.

My first 50 is a gravity/energy dominator - so that's lots of knockback with pretty much half her powers. It made her loads of fun to play even solo, which happened a lot because she's on Triumph, and I found myself using her tier-one powers (Lift especially) all the way up, because the knockback/knockup was such a good way to prevent her from being smacked by whatever wasn't currently being held in her Gravity Distortion or distracted by her Singularity. I've learned to think of Lift as a few-seconds-long hold, and more control is ALWAYS better, regardless of what class you're playing. However, most of her attacks are slotted for damage and accuracy (except the holds and Wormhole which were slotted for duration instead of damage), because technique aside, numbers do matter. If I'm not doing enough damage to kill things, the game stops being fun and starts being frustrating, regardless of how many minions I'm flinging all over the place.

I'm reading and re-reading MOO's post over and over again, looking for some sort of question or request for input from the forumites. I'm not seeing it.

This doesn't sound like a thread that was created to start a discussion, it just seems like a statement, a proclamation.

I min/max my claws/sr main scrapper and utilize shockwave in a way that will cause knockback haters to have seizures.

I've been called a dirty power-gamer.

I've been told I don't know how to use shockwave properly.

I've been told a great many things and been called a great many more.

It's your 15 bucks, do what you want. If it doesn't work with the way I do things, we don't have to team with each other.

Combination of both.

When I play my lowbie feeble toons I use technique and strategy so I can kill those pesky Hellions and Outcasts for xp.

When I play my high level toons I tend to rely on numbers more to achieve things the game wouldn't let me otherwise.

I play and plan to play in a way that allows me to survive and have fun without relying on a pristine connection.

"Twitch" gameplay, where being perfectly (or close to perfect) synched with where the enemies are and where I am at all times, is highly vulnerable to sudden lag spikes. They don't even have to be big lag spikes; trying to fire off a power and finding out that the power has not fired off and now the enemies are all in different positions than I intended is not fun for me.

My view of knockback is if you knock an enemy away, getting that enemy back or defeated is not my problem, until they come back in range of the main group of enemies. If I have a debuff on them, I'll turn it off, wait for it to recharge, and re-apply it to an enemy closer to the group. If we're all fine with that, then I have no player-problems with knockback; all my problems turn into dev-problems with enemies being knocked through geometry, which despite disbelief on the forums happens surprisingly regularly to me.

The last time I mentioned this, I was called lazy, stupid, and a bad teammate. This is part of why I don't want to team anymore, even with people on the forums.

This happens the most in Pink Caves, because of the way their walls slope. When you knock someone back, you can shove his chest into the little crevice between the sloped wall and the floor. However, when that enemy stands up, he will stand STRAIGHT up and clip through the wall, forcing the centre of his hit box out of the map.

This is actually easily reproducable, and it happens almost every time you knock someone into a wall in the Pink Caves. I say almost every time and I MEAN IT, because my Robotics Mastermind usually has to deal with between two and three of these PER MISSION in the Pink Caves. This is a serious problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I don't have a problem with knockback.

I have a problem with stupid and/or jerkwad knockback.

Like the energy blaster who followed my BS/DA scrapper around targeting through me and sending my target flying right before I got a chance to attack it. (jerkwad knockback) The worst part was he was my teammate.

Stupid knockback would be the energy blaster who hits a spawn with Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast back to back......before a tank establishes agro. Now the tank has to work that much harder to get the spawn on him, while they're shooting whatever they saw first when they stood up.