Regarding Recent Changes to Architect
You haven't really stated anything new. |
Of course, you've also completely glossed over the thought that we could be just on the pre-launch side of a resurgence of subscriptions |
What is totally unconstructive is drawing inferences from the fate of City of Heroes at some indeterminate point in the future that this particular decision has any relevance in instigating that future. |
I'm not even going to hesitate a guess on how much longer the game will last. |
I just can't imagine it going away in less than five more years or so |
Look - I'm not here trying to rain on your parade, so don't take offense to anything I said. By all means, enjoy the game. I know I have been. And I love paragonwiki by the way. Its my one stop source for badge hunting.
I just wish everyone could take a step back and look at the big picture here. They didn't roll out this patch to screw you personally. It's silly to think that they make decisions like these to piss people off and make them leave. It really is about short-term gamer rage versus long-term playability of the game. These guys have busted their butts to promote the latter, and even when I disagree with day-to-day decisions they make, I do respect that.
So if you're really willing to leave over it, you have to understand that the sentiments you are expressing are the exact same sentiments I have seen people express repeatedly for over five years over every single tweak (and major change, for that matter) that has been rolled out. I'm not going to say that the game will be better off without you, but I will say that the game will go on, with or without you. A week from now, I'll forget that you ever existed. Three months from now, no one will even remember this patch. Two years from now, there will be a whole different set of things to be ecstatic and pissed off about. If you're newer to Paragon City, reading the gamer rage in threads like these, and a bit worried, don't be. Us long-timers know the drill, and you'll get used to it, too. Read some of the "You guys are the BEST!!!" threads to get yourself in a better frame of mind and go have fun. |
Big Picture. I17's coming. Demon Summoning's coming. Here in Poland, Summer's coming. Cycling Season's coming. Er, Other Stuff Season is coming.
This is like, pfff. Look out the window. Smile at your Significant Other and go watch a DVD Box Set . Install that FPS you've been meaning to get around to.
But don't go all nerdgah! or ragequit over something that'll be sorted in a few weeks or a month or two at most, when Aeon etc deliver what he said they would.
And heck, even if nothing changes, MA's still awesome. I played Talos Vice tonight. Damn, that's a good arc.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Hey everyone,
We wanted to take a moment to address issues that have come up regarding the latest patch that has been released. We certainly understand a lot of your concerns and we want to do our best to alleviate them. The change that has been implemented is a temporary change to combat a long standing exploit. This was a stopgap fix that we had to put out until we could come up with a more permanent solution. We certainly do not want to leave your arcs in a state where using them in non-exploitive ways results in little to no experience being gained. Myself, pohsyb, Television, War Witch, along with everyone else here involved in the operations of Mission Architect, are doing everything we can to arrive at a solution that we can all agree on. We currently plan to implement a solution in issue 17 or soon thereafter (and I mean actual soon and not Soon™) . We can't go into detail about what exactly is planned, but it will alleviate the current issue that many of you are having, which is finding your normal arcs are rewarding little experience. Anyone who has a normal story arc that is drastically affected by this change should not go about overhauling your work. We are going to make sure that this upcoming fix will stop exploitive behavior within Architect while also allowing you all to be as creative as you want within the system - without extremely negative consequences. Dr. Aeon |
Why wasn't this information included in the original announcement?
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
It's possible, perhaps, that the new people you are seeing are part of the existing player base who switched servers.
I know I've made some changes with my toons and in the past several months have played a lot on Victory, Liberty, Triumph, and Pinnacle, and hardly any on Freedom and Virtue. |
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
Question. Why did you make maps that could be exploited to begin with. Shut up.
Sister Twelve: same goes for you. Shut up. You aren't gaining any sympathy, and at this point you've managed to get people un-involved with this whole mess willing to step in and tell you it's time to close your mouth. |
Really, if you don't bother to read the objections people have, and just wish to label everyone who is affected some kind of dirty cheat, please bow out of the thread.
You ever played any of his arcs. Nary a funky mechanic to be found. And that has been at least half the complaints in this thread - it affects "legit" arcs as much as, if not more than, the exploit arcs.
What's particularly grating is that legitimate arcs require a lot more time to create than exploits. Once the exploit is discovered? I mean, you don't need text, even. Just slap in 'bob' in all the required text fields, place the appropriate whatsis, and go.
The people who put in the time to create an interesting mission and story? They loose far more.
I just wish this had happened BEFORE I plunked down cash for 2 super boosters, GR preorder, and 5 extra mission slots. Ungh.
To the Red Name(s) It May Concern:
It's a rule. An unmoderated medium will always degenerate to the lowest common denominator. It's like leaving books of matches in the classroom. The entire student body is not necessarily going to be involved, but, lacking the proper supervision, that school is going to burn to the ground.
I know what you thought. You had this idea, the first of its kind. You thought the players would share your vision for the AE. You thought you could trust the players to use it the way it was meant to be used, the way you thought it should be used. You thought you could let the system police itself. The "good" arcs would rise above the rest, the chaff would sink to the bottom, and abusers would be flagged. It was a noble approach, but not realistic, and, given the game's long history of the constant push-and-pull relationship between yourself and the "min-maxers", I'm surprised you would even entertain the notion.
This is your wake up call. The players cannot be trusted. It was admirable to give them the opportunity to prove otherwise, but by now you must realize the conclusion is unavoidable. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You built this system. You're going to have to step up and manage it properly.
The conflict is centered around this question of rewards. How much is too much? How little is too little? What exactly is the magic formula for risk vs. reward? You've always been sketchy about this answer, and understandably so. If you say the answer is "5", then 12 new forum posts suddenly appear discussing the best way to attain "4.999999".
Personally, I don't care about XP. I care about story. Wipe all XP from the AE and I would still use it. I know I'm not alone thinking this way, but I also know I'm likely in the minority. However, at the same time, if you continue along your current path and nerf AE to the point where it ceases to be a functional tool with which I am able to tell a story or find enjoyable stories authored by other players, I will stop using it. I'm not alone in thinking that way either, and, face it, if you persist in alienating the authors that create the content for the AE, it will fail, and poor Doc Aeon will be out of his shiny new job before he's barely qualified for benefits.
You already have two classifications for AE arcs: Honored arcs (includes Dev Choice and Hall of Fame) and Published arcs. This implementation shows that you have the ability to 1) differentiate the rewards between the two classes, and 2) lock arcs in a "finished" form that forbids further edits and changes.
What is needed here is a third classification for arcs. Something in the middle that borrows from both. Let's call it "Approved arcs" for now. You can think of a better name later.
Honored arcs continue to have (or the option to have) "normal" rewards, just as they do now, while Published arcs have no rewards at all.
Enter our new category: Approved arcs. Arcs that are in the Published class can be submitted to a queue to be reviewed and checked for exploits. When they have passed quality control testing and are deemed exploit-free, they are locked and passed into the Approved class. Approved arcs will have XP and ticket rewards just like arcs currently in the Published class. Not nerfed XP but XP in line with what a player would expect to achieve through normal gameplay.
Of course, the quality control process has a certain cost involved. Let's look at the Cost-Benefit Analysis.
For the cost of adding mod(s) to the AE system, you would reap a number of benefits.
First and foremost, you would completely eliminate the players' ability to abuse and exploit the AE system. This, on its own, would let Positron sleep more soundly at night and make him a much more pleasant person around the office. Additionally, you would save all the future costs involved in fixing any as yet undiscovered exploits.
Next, you would be able to continue to keep your definition of what is "acceptable" AE content in-house by exercising direct control over which Published arcs qualify for Approved status and which do not. Arcs would rise or fall on their individual merit, not get struck down as collateral damage by the latest nerf levied against farmers and exploiters.
Another benefit, and perhaps the most elegant of all, would be that you could roll back every nerf and change you've made to the AE thus far. Give us back Sky Raider Engineers as allies, put the Prisoners group back in, take those silly throwing knives away from custom melee sets, and so on. Abuses for disportionate rewards would be a thing of the past! Features that were once useful for authors but since removed because they were exploitable for farmers can be inserted back into the system with no qualms or hesitation.
One important benefit would be satisfaction of your stated goal that, with Honored and Approved arcs, AE remain a viable method for players to level from 1-50. Although the Approved category would have to start from scratch, if you could add even four to six new arcs per week, it would quickly grow to a respectable size and give players a plethora of options in searching for fresh, player-designed content. Doc Aeon has shown the tenacity to introduce a new Dev Choice arc on a semi-regular (close to bi-weekly) schedule. The standards for an arc to graduate to Approved status would be much less stringent than required for Honored status. I don't think that four to six arcs per week would be unreasonable.
Finally, and possibly most notably for some, it would be time for the other end of this argument to put up or shut up. All those players who have consistently argued that their reason for designing and playing exploit and farm missions was to "test their build" will have free reign to test, test, and test to their hearts' content. They can make the ultimate outdoor map of jellybean, green jello, meow mix, and banana bread and clear it over and over if that's what makes them happy. Unless, of course, it's not about testing their build, and their main goal all along was to unbalance the reward system. Then I suppose they'd leave AE and move on to their next farming strategy. I'm seeing a win-win here.
Don't get me wrong. AE was a great idea. If it weren't for the AE, I can't honestly say that I'd still be playing and paying for this game. Since it's release, it's taken a beating from bad decisions, poor judgment, and overall mismanagement, but it's not too late. AE can be a great idea again. You still have players that believe you can turn this thing around and take control. I still believe, but I'm barely hanging on at this point. Don't let me down. I still have stories to tell.
Screw that, just look at how long it has taken them to give out DCs and nobody has had a legit HoF in several months. This "approved arcs" idea only would add even more unneeded overhead. QA couldn't even find the problems in this patch, you'd trust them to play through your arcs and decide if you're worthy of giving rewards? You'd expect any of this to occur in a timely matter?
For the Nth time, most people will not play AE arcs if they give no reward and that includes a large subset of the authors as well. The "I'll play anything just for the story crowd" is very tiny compared to the total AE community.
Besides which, editing your arc will have to take it off the "approved" list. Authors edit their "Final" arcs all the time.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Dr. Aeon:
I understand the reason for the hotfix, and can appreciate that a better solution is 'in the pipeline.' I'm patient, and I can wait out MA being "sub-par" until the better solution can be implemented.
Here's my primary concern. The majority of my arcs (including a DC'ed one!) have at least one mission with severely reduced XP because of this change, in spite of the fact allies are used in a completely legitimate way.
I can handle that, given that I trust you guys to come up with a better solution than the current one that will soon be put into place.
But I'm very concerned about the players that are 'not in the know' who will undoubtedly hand out low ratings when they find a mission isn't giving XP. I hope something will be done to counter this: for example, starting from April 7th, any ratings below 5 stars that are given between the 7th, and whenever the *real* fix gets here will be removed.
I would really hate to see arcs I've worked so hard on get bad ratings in response to something I wasn't even responsible for, and that isn't permanent.
Because in most cases, a particular player's rating *is*.
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice! )
Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
Using phrases like "gamer rage" is offensively condescending. It's only a small step above adding stupid tags to threads.
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- I'm a lot disappointed. Subscription cancelled.
- Whoever is supposed to be in charge of this thing doesn't seem to have a clue or care about the carnage they leave behind among the players that actually try to use the thing as intended.
- What made this so damn important that you had to screw over so much of your customers, many of who weren't farming anyway, RIGHT NOW when you could have waited a few more weeks?
- Your stop-gap solution would be bad enough if it only affected allies. It does not. It is flat-out BROKEN.
- So every time I start to have fun with something, the devs change it, and I'm just tired of it. That's why I too am canceling my subscription.
- If you dislike my bluntness and challenging tone, feel free to put a temporary or even permanent ban on me. If that is to be a consequence of me saying what needs to said, so be it. My main account was already canceled prior to all of this and this account only has about two weeks left.
- AE was, and still is, just a really bad idea.
- Not having heard a sausage about it, I call hogwash on your "long standing exploit"; a badly-concieved patch is much more likely...This patch wasn't properly tested. Devs didn't realize how much of a mess it was and don't have the guts to roll it back so you're going to spend a month letting the MA be wasteland and authors punished for writing content similar to your own.
...And so on, and so on. This isn't constructive. It's not honest disagreement. It's petty and vindictive, and it's more likely to make the devs dig in, not less.
The thing that really rubs me the wrong way is that these messages are posted in response to a thread started by someone who is making an honest attempt to explain that the current situation is not the end result of what they have in mind, and they are working on fixing it. "BUT YOU'RE NOT FIXING IT FAST ENOUGH (YESTERDAY!) SO I'M QUITTING!!!" Good riddance, we don't need those kind of bad vibes around when new players do show up.
These are probably some of the same people who whine and gripe about how they don't give us enough news and information in a timely manner. Can you blame the devs? If this is the kind of reaction that I knew I was going to get when I did announce news and information--even good news (we know there's a problem and we're fixing it)--it wouldn't take me long before I was like, "Screw it. They'll figure out it's happening when it happens."
You know, I'm not being facetious when I say this, I hope that if you ever put yourself out there in the form of something you've created, people give you a little more respect for your efforts than what a lot of people here have given the CoH developers. I really do hope that if it's 98% perfect, people don't hone in on that 2% that's not and sit there and trash the hell out of it, all indignant that you would ever even bother trying to do something worthwhile.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
Your stop-gap solution would be bad enough if it only affected allies. It does not. It is flat-out BROKEN.
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Rewards in Mission Architect missions that contain more than one allied critters will give progressively lower rewards for each additional allied critter in the mission. |
Given the obvious disconnect between what they thought they were doing and what they did, it seems to me that the patch is "not working as intended". Broken, for short.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
We aren't supposed to notice the obvious disconnect with what they thought they were doing, and what they said they were doing ---and the actual effect, which is to spoil arcs that contain captive rescues (not "allied critters") and even defendable objects?
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The rewards aren't what you'd like them to be. Again, that's not broken. I will point out yet again that for the people who are writing these stories for the sake of telling their story, I assure you that for the purposes of telling a story, the Mission Architect is working better than it ever has. I will point out yet again that for the people who were using the Mission Architect to skip the first 30 (or whatever) levels, this was never what it was intended for. If you were gaining levels significantly faster than you could have otherwise, you were exploiting the system, which the devs have repeatedly cracked down on. In that sense, this patch has actually FIXED something that WAS broken and no longer is.
For everyone else in between, take a deep breath and a chill pill and lay off the rage. As Dr. Aeon said, it will be working again as it should in short order. This is AT MOST a minor oopsie, not a sign of the apocalypse. If your arc gives out pathetic experience but entertains me, in no way do I consider your arc "spoiled." If it was yet another friggin' farm, then it never could have been more worthless than it already was.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
"Not working as intended" is not the same thing as "broken." Broken means that you literally cannot create an arc. You can. I have. People do. They work. I've seen it myself. It's not broken. Cathedral of Pain? Broken. Mission Architect? Not broken.
The rewards aren't what you'd like them to be. Again, that's not broken. I will point out yet again that for the people who are writing these stories for the sake of telling their story, I assure you that for the purposes of telling a story, the Mission Architect is working better than it ever has. I will point out yet again that for the people who were using the Mission Architect to skip the first 30 (or whatever) levels, this was never what it was intended for. If you were gaining levels significantly faster than you could have otherwise, you were exploiting the system, which the devs have repeatedly cracked down on. In that sense, this patch has actually FIXED something that WAS broken and no longer is. For everyone else in between, take a deep breath and a chill pill and lay off the rage. As Dr. Aeon said, it will be working again as it should in short order. This is AT MOST a minor oopsie, not a sign of the apocalypse. If your arc gives out pathetic experience but entertains me, in no way do I consider your arc "spoiled." If it was yet another friggin' farm, then it never could have been more worthless than it already was. |
I assure you that for the purposes of telling a story, the Mission Architect is working better than it ever has.
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It's not about the rewards. It's about the constant fiddling with the thing while the devs chase ghosts. What author wants to put the effort into making arcs not knowing 1) if there will be anyone around to play it once it published, and 2) which MA feature is going to be next one nerfed? I doubt you will find many amongst the better authors that would be willing to work under those conditions.
The only reliable thing about the MA is that it isn't reliable, because Paragon won't step up to the plate to take responsibility for it and mod it. These repeated attempts to put down abusive behavior accomplish very little except to create an atmosphere of instability.
Some of the things that I post might sound harsh to you, TonyV, but they are simply my honest observations. When I see evidence of two brain cells being rubbed together, I have acknowledged it, but until such time I will call them like I see them. The fact is, the AE has been mishandled from the start, at times to the point of what can only be referred to as a fiasco, and I think it's a shame that something with so much potential is getting treated so poorly.
And if the things I post are too harsh, I suppose my post will be modsmacked. Because Paragon mods these forums. They won't mod AE, but they mod the forums. That shows you where their priorities lie.
The rewards aren't what you'd like them to be. Again, that's not broken. I will point out yet again that for the people who are writing these stories for the sake of telling their story, I assure you that for the purposes of telling a story, the Mission Architect is working better than it ever has.
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These will always have a variety of reward structures, but even so, the goal in every such game is to progress characters forward in terms of levels and gear. If you aren't doing that you may as well be cybering in the arena.
You know, I'm not being facetious when I say this, I hope that if you ever put yourself out there in the form of something you've created, people give you a little more respect for your efforts than what a lot of people here have given the CoH developers.
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Look, I have a high regard for the developers generally. This game will always be the one I come back to. I eventually came back even after the even grosser disappointments of i5 and i6.
I want AE to be a smashing success. As I've said before, AE has done wonders to sustain my interest in the game. I enjoy the creative outlet, I enjoy having missions available that actually contain new elements ... and I enjoy the XP, and the tickets that allow me to sidestep WW/BM for salvage and recipes, because that's a mini-game I don't enjoy nearly as much.
I probably am done with writing for AE, though; my next arc will be my last for the foreseeable future, and I probably will take down the ones that are made wastes of time by the patch if this drags on like the other one has. Yes, this makes me sad and angry. I'm no longer willing to put in the time to create arcs only to see them so casually stepped on.
If we want AE to remain viable as an alternative way to play the game, the writing community needs to unite in defense of our mutual interests. Telling people that it's nothing to get upset about is not helping what ought to be our common cause.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
No it hasn't, it's just people blowing things way out of proportion yet again.** Is it ideal? No of course not. But how exactly does this ruin anyone's game? Yes, some (many) arcs have reduced rewards. But really is worth all this crying? Just skip those for now,or if it's your arc take it off line for a bit if you're concerned about any negative points you might get from the kiddies.
Now if this was a permanent 'fix' I'd agree (sans the childish tantrums). But it isn't a better fix is in the works. So seriously, get a grip. **as is shown by the dive my forum rep took for speaking out against overreacting morons and the fun comments I got! Looking forward to the effect of this post. *waves at nerdragers* |
It is by no means going to cause me to think about quitting; that's just stupid. I already have my GR and I'm paid up through this year.
Actually, what I had hoped to be able to do was to create game content for an MMORPG.
These will always have a variety of reward structures, but even so, the goal in every such game is to progress characters forward in terms of levels and gear. If you aren't doing that you may as well be cybering in the arena. Unintended irony is the best kind. Look, I have a high regard for the developers generally. This game will always be the one I come back to. I eventually came back even after the even grosser disappointments of i5 and i6. I want AE to be a smashing success. As I've said before, AE has done wonders to sustain my interest in the game. I enjoy the creative outlet, I enjoy having missions available that actually contain new elements ... and I enjoy the XP, and the tickets that allow me to sidestep WW/BM for salvage and recipes, because that's a mini-game I don't enjoy nearly as much. I probably am done with writing for AE, though; my next arc will be my last for the foreseeable future, and I probably will take down the ones that are made wastes of time by the patch if this drags on like the other one has. Yes, this makes me sad and angry. I'm no longer willing to put in the time to create arcs only to see them so casually stepped on. If we want AE to remain viable as an alternative way to play the game, the writing community needs to unite in defense of our mutual interests. Telling people that it's nothing to get upset about is not helping what ought to be our common cause. |
This was well said and gets to the heart of the matter.
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I mentioned I was unsubscribing to convey just how much of a problem I thought this was.
I think there's a big difference between 'there's suddenly a new possible exploit that we have to fix or it's going to completely derail the game in the next month -- it's going to cause a lot of problems for nearly all other content, but it's better than the alternative' and 'we've suddenly decided to slap a fix on something that's been around since day 1, which is also going to shred the XP for nearly all other content, but for some reason we find it necessary to tod that rather than wait the month or two for a more sensible fix.'
My objection, and why I'm leaving, has to do with the pattern of decision making that lead to that, rather than the specific 'fix.' That they thought this was a good idea speaks volumes, and means I'm not willing to shell out more money to find out what happens next. Maybe I'll be back in another year, but it's looking increasingly unlikely.
TonyV, your comments about only 'some' arcs being affected strike me as disingenuous. Some? Really? How many arcs do you think have nothing but enemies in them at all?
Your dismissive attitude to why people might be upset their arcs have reduced XP is obnoxious, too. Like others said, it's hard to be a storyteller with no audience.
That they thought this was a good idea speaks volumes, and means I'm not willing to shell out more money to find out what happens next.
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It sucks you have decided to leave. If you feel the devs are making poor game design choices then there isn't much anyone can say to convince you otherwise. Especially since the devs have been going out of their way to provide improvements to this game that players have been wanting for years. And, in my opinion, this game's direction and enjoyment is nearly the best I can remember in the past 4 years.
To each their own.
and I probably will take down the ones that are made wastes of time by the patch if this drags on like the other one has.
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I look at it like this: even if they take say six months to fix this problem, why bother putting in time to pull down an arc? You can let it sit there gathering dust without having to lift a finger. Then, when they do fix the problem, the arcs are still there and ready to go, again no effort required. It's not like not getting plays costs you something.
Keep in mind this comes from someone who's time online is limited so every minute or two spent here and there counts.
I look at it like this: even if they take say six months to fix this problem, why bother putting in time to pull down an arc?
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When there's an obvious right way to fix this, we shouldn't have long to wait.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
SAVE CoX info:
Titan Network efforts
Saving CoX events/FB info
Now if this was a permanent 'fix' I'd agree (sans the childish tantrums). But it isn't a better fix is in the works. So seriously, get a grip.
**as is shown by the dive my forum rep took for speaking out against overreacting morons and the fun comments I got! Looking forward to the effect of this post. *waves at nerdragers*
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.