Regarding Recent Changes to Architect


Aliana Blue

 

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Originally Posted by konshu View Post
It's possible, perhaps, that the new people you are seeing are part of the existing player base who switched servers.

I know I've made some changes with my toons and in the past several months have played a lot on Victory, Liberty, Triumph, and Pinnacle, and hardly any on Freedom and Virtue.
Yeah, it's not like we didn't have a couple months of free server transfers in the recent past or anything.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The notion that balancing reward systems or combat systems is an impossible, and therefore ludicrous task, is itself ludicrous. ... [It may be difficult.] ... But you don't, as someone else put it, "give up." Giving up on game balancing is giving up on game design, period.
I can see where a big problem might be meeting deadlines, with design quality getting sacrificed in order to have new things released to keep the player base happy.

As I've said a million times before ...

If we had a small number of people (1-4) on the design team whose sole job was to release new content on a monthly or similarly frequent basis, it would buy the rest of the design team more time to complete and fully test the larger new features. There would be less of a need to rush projects out that are barely half-baked, as AE was.


 

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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
So now you're accusing me of being a farm writer? It's obvious that you haven't played any of my arcs then.

In fact, don't play them. I couldn't care less about your opinions after this point.

I think that 'They are' was the message directed at Farmers who don't think that Farm Arcs are exploits, and then, her message to farmers over with, she moved on to give you personally a completely separate message about your comment to her being cheap.

Eco.


MArcs:

The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

 

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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash View Post
There is using the system, and "using" the system. If players are doing things with the current set up that fall too far outside of what the intent of the system is (no matter if it's PvP, or AE, or something in PvE), the Devs have full rights and responsibility to take care of those outliers. If you choose to live in that gray area, don't be upset when your toy gets taken away or changed.

If you don't have the patience to hang with AE as it goes through its evolution, there's no hope for you. Every MMO changes, and not everyone is happy with any change. Fact of life. To expect otherwise is just gonna make your brain hurt.
If the devs can ignore a player problem for a few weeks, it is unlikely to ever be fixed. They have a track record of this. They always get pulled away to make the next new gimmick instead of staying on task. I dont blame the devs,,it is a management problem. patience is waiting for cathedral of pain to come back. AE is dead as far as a lot of people are concerned.


Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running

I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!

You are in a maze of twisty little passages

 

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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA View Post
AE is dead as far as a lot of people are concerned.
A lot of people think AE is the best thing since sliced bread.

See I can do that too.


@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.

 

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
I've come to the conclusion that AE has been the single worst concept ever implemented by the dev team.
And I've come to the conclusion that AE has been the single most awesome thing ever implemented by the development team. I have played arcs that have genuinely made me go "Wow, that was good" and I am sorry to hear you never had the same experience, but please don't stomp on my fun because you think it will somehow increase yours.

MA is and always should be an alternative leveling path for the players. This was how it was given, and it has been player enforced by the plethora of pre-20 arcs that players have made to get away from the same old grind.


A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread

 

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Originally Posted by Tangler View Post
And I've come to the conclusion that AE has been the single most awesome thing ever implemented by the development team. I have played arcs that have genuinely made me go "Wow, that was good" and I am sorry to hear you never had the same experience, but please don't stomp on my fun because you think it will somehow increase yours.

MA is and always should be an alternative leveling path for the players. This was how it was given, and it has been player enforced by the plethora of pre-20 arcs that players have made to get away from the same old grind.
Oh, I've played plenty of arcs that were quite enjoyable. Unfortunately, that enjoyment pales in significance to all the negative effects AE has had on the game overall.


 

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Well okay, let's run down the negatives you have listed:

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
It has done nothing but allow rampant & continued exploits
No argument here that exploits are bad, but exploits are hardly something exclusive to MA.

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
drained development time & resources away from other projects
That we can only speculate on. What we do know is that Dr. Aeon was hired on specifically to be the AE guy, so having him working on AE is not redirecting developers.

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
seriously screwed up the market
Everything screws up the market. Arcane salvage was heavily hit back when ITF was shiny--but we shouldn't start giving dirty looks to it just because that happened.

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
and driven a major wedge between players over the farming issue.
They've been doing that since the days of PI and Television. Again this is not exclusive to MA, the only thing here that some people need to realise is the difference between farming and exploiting.


A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by IncredibleMouse View Post
Thanks for the exploit fix.

My friend re-activated her account now that it's been fixed.

Thats is perverse. Your friend could play because of how other people were playing on teams she wasnt even on? Your friend needs to save her money for therapy.


Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running

I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!

You are in a maze of twisty little passages

 

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Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess View Post
I'm feeling adventurous today and so will go with the following:

I don't want you to be able to play like this in the AE.

This kind of playstyle is perfectly doable in regular content. It's called the Super Sidekicking System. It lets you fight with a team at higher levels than you are, gaining xp, influence/infamy, merits, salvage, recipes, inspirations, etc.

There are currently over 3,000 pages of 'arcs' in the AE.

The following keywords denote blatant farming and powerlevelling:

Farm
Tickets
H.D.S.
Anti-Portal
XP
(Meow/Miaow etc arcs are still on the system! Delete them!)

Although the Developers have a job to rebalance everythign and have gotten it wrong on more than one occasion, Player Greed and the desire to achieve something for nothing have created this problem.

If farmers, mass exploiters, cheaters and the like are so sure that they have a good argument why they should be allowed to continue doing so then why are there multiple copies of the same 'arcs'? Just given a different flavour?

I am not calling for account bans, suspensions or such. I'm calling for suspension from the AE with regards to creating content. If you can't play responsibly, then the privelege is removed. End of story.
Im calling for the closing of AE and making the place into a hero museum..or a walmart.


Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running

I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!

You are in a maze of twisty little passages

 

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Originally Posted by Predatoric View Post
They pretty much have to nowadays since theres next to no teaming outside of it thanks to AE.

Thats not the only person thats left because of AE, it pretty much killed EU I found. My entire SG left within a month of its release and havent been back since. Even myself, if it doesnt get sorted properly soon i wont be staying either.

Just because farmers love it, doesnt mean the actual people wanting to play a decent regular game do.
and they cant form a freaking team? or did their mothers tie a pork chop around their neck to get the dog to play with them. It is amazing the number of people that whine that no one will invite them to a team. yet they refuse to start one. Its like the 15 lowbies in atlas all broadcasting "lft". start a team, be a leader. stop acting like 9 year olds.


Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running

I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!

You are in a maze of twisty little passages

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Predatoric View Post
They pretty much have to nowadays since theres next to no teaming outside of it thanks to AE.

Thats not the only person thats left because of AE, it pretty much killed EU I found. My entire SG left within a month of its release and havent been back since. Even myself, if it doesnt get sorted properly soon i wont be staying either.

Just because farmers love it, doesnt mean the actual people wanting to play a decent regular game do.
That's not my point. I don't care if you love it or hate it. You can hate AE more than anything in your life. I never even hinted you should like it. Or anyone else. But, what about AE stops you from playing the decent regular game that never went away?

You said you had a SG. There was teaming for you, but they quit. Because AE farming existed? I still can't fathom why people who enjoy the game outside of AE would quit because AE exists. Except for badges, there is no reason one would ever have to set foot in any of the buildings.

That's like quitting because there's PVP in the game.

I am sorry your SG quit because of AE. I am sorry that AE somehow "poisoned" the rest of the game for you. I just don't understand it at all.


 

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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
Didn't look like AP was talking to you when she said that. Looked like she was talking to exploiters. If we start fighting among ourselves over this non-issue, the exploiters have already won.
And if you write off legitimate concerns as a "non-issue" you just may get them fighting among themselves more.

Seriously, there is at least one issue here. Maybe not the intent, but certainly the execution. Either that or the execution was fine but the patch note was horribly written. But that is still an issue.


 

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Originally Posted by Tangler View Post
No argument here that exploits are bad, but exploits are hardly something exclusive to MA.
I am not aware of anything in the past that has come close to the AE exploits, and certainly not on such a frequent and widespread scale. My issue is not that there are exploits, it's that the exploits are so large and continual and all seem to be centered around the AE system.

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That we can only speculate on. What we do know is that Dr. Aeon was hired on specifically to be the AE guy, so having him working on AE is not redirecting developers.
That doesn't address all the time, effort and money spent during development and implementation of AE. Is Dr. Aeon a programmer? Is he the only person involved in making changes to game mechanics, like the recent XP nerf in AE? Further, I assume Dr. Aeon requires a salary & benefits, therefore continues to siphon off potential resources that could be redirected to other projects.

What about the GM team responding to petitions about farm missions in the AE? (If they even bother anymore, which is a completely separate issue.) This takes time away from responding to other player problems.

Quote:
Everything screws up the market. Arcane salvage was heavily hit back when ITF was shiny--but we shouldn't start giving dirty looks to it just because that happened.
ITF wasn't taking players from zero influence to the influence cap in a weekend either. And, yes, I'm aware that there are many other factors that affect the market, and that the rampant inflation is not only related to AE. However, AE is one of the largest contributing factors, in my opinion.

Quote:
They've been doing that since the days of PI and Television. Again this is not exclusive to MA, the only thing here that some people need to realise is the difference between farming and exploiting.
Again, it's a matter of degrees. There has always been some conflict between farmers, powergamers, RP'ers, and the mythical casual player. None of it has reached the level of divisiveness that the AE system engendered between players. Go back and read some of the old threads from around issue 14. At least those that didn't get deleted by the forum mods.


 

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The mythical casual player? What?


 

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Per my earlier post - My arc Suppression was sitting at 5 stars and on the bottom of page 3. It now gives only 2 XP per kill because of this fix.

While I was on playing, I received 3 stars with no comment at all. Perhaps due to almost no XP, perhaps to make a spot for a farm which is now sitting at the bottom of page 3, or perhaps because some one does not care for a fairy tale like story.

I should have put a warning in this arc not to play it for now as I thought about doing in case the 3 stars was for lack of XP, but it's too late now. Like many others I am kind of at the point of giving up in MA.

I am once again asking that this "fix" be pulled. It isn't fair to punish people who have worked for months on arcs using MA for its intended purpose in an attempt to punish exploiters. People who cheat the system to level are not hurting us. While I don't agree with it, it does no harm to me. This "fix" does.


@Gypsy Rose

In Pursuit of Liberty - 344916
The Vigilante - 395861
Suppression - 374481 - Winner of The American Legion's February 2011 AE Author Contest

 

Posted

I very quickly put up a warning in the description of my one remaining arc. I would suggest doing so, regardless.


 

Posted

I have, after some very careful thought, deleted my MA folders and unpublished all of my arcs.

Yes, that includes the DC.

My faith in AE as a viable system in City of... is low. It's the fault of greedy players whose reaction when the original furore over mass exploitation of the AE was commented on by Positron was 'Oh no, we got caught, it's the Devs' fault'.

I liken that reaction to various politicians in the UK who tried to claim that their expenses were legitimate, despite evidence to the contrary. There are other Real Life examples but I have no wish to invoke Godwin's Law.

I would like to request that the hotfix be reverted, as it's not going to stop exploiters (some arcs have already been updated, with the description stating that they have been updated to work around the latest nerfs).

I would then like to see the arcs that contain exploits removed and the publishing privileges of the globals responsible removed.

I would also like to see some evidence of housekeeping, namely the removal of arcs that were exploits that no longer work due to the string of hotfixes.

Then I would like to see more community competitions, to encourage the use of the AE for story-telling: including the recognising of community threads regarding awards, such as the Players' Choice Awards.

If the AE truly was designed as a story-telling device and an alternate levelling method for people who have gone through the content more times than they'd care to mention, then the community competitions could reflect this: A competition to design, for instance, starter arcs (1-5) for Heroes/Villains etc: A competition to design a new arc for the 30-35 range, and so on.

As it stands, the AE is predominantly used by abusers of the system, who will cry out that they're entitled to abuse the system because the tool is there for them to do so. Despite evidence to the contrary.

I'm sick of their lousy attitudes, I'm sick of hotfixes that do nothing except harm legitimate storytellers and designers of alternative levelling content, I feel sorry for those who bought Architect Edition, and this problem needs to be sorted out before GR.

Otherwise there's absolutely nothing to stop lazy abusers rolling a Praetorian, powerlevelling them via exploits in the AE, getting bored, farming tickets and repeating. The longer it goes on the harder it is to undo the damage this player-led exploitation is doing.


 

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Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess View Post
I liken that reaction to various politicians in the UK who tried to claim that their expenses were legitimate, despite evidence to the contrary. There are other Real Life examples but I have no wish to invoke Godwin's Law.
Riiight. Your argument is invalid, you implicitly compared farming in a videogame to killing millions of people in a terrible atrocity.


Ambush City, Or: How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Ambush - Arc #1043
Strife of the Grave - Arc #3409
Shift - Arc #529411

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess View Post
I have, after some very careful thought, deleted my MA folders and unpublished all of my arcs.

Yes, that includes the DC.

My faith in AE as a viable system in City of... is low. It's the fault of greedy players whose reaction when the original furore over mass exploitation of the AE was commented on by Positron was 'Oh no, we got caught, it's the Devs' fault'.

I liken that reaction to various politicians in the UK who tried to claim that their expenses were legitimate, despite evidence to the contrary. There are other Real Life examples but I have no wish to invoke Godwin's Law.

I would like to request that the hotfix be reverted, as it's not going to stop exploiters (some arcs have already been updated, with the description stating that they have been updated to work around the latest nerfs).

I would then like to see the arcs that contain exploits removed and the publishing privileges of the globals responsible removed.

I would also like to see some evidence of housekeeping, namely the removal of arcs that were exploits that no longer work due to the string of hotfixes.

Then I would like to see more community competitions, to encourage the use of the AE for story-telling: including the recognising of community threads regarding awards, such as the Players' Choice Awards.

If the AE truly was designed as a story-telling device and an alternate levelling method for people who have gone through the content more times than they'd care to mention, then the community competitions could reflect this: A competition to design, for instance, starter arcs (1-5) for Heroes/Villains etc: A competition to design a new arc for the 30-35 range, and so on.

As it stands, the AE is predominantly used by abusers of the system, who will cry out that they're entitled to abuse the system because the tool is there for them to do so. Despite evidence to the contrary.

I'm sick of their lousy attitudes, I'm sick of hotfixes that do nothing except harm legitimate storytellers and designers of alternative levelling content, I feel sorry for those who bought Architect Edition, and this problem needs to be sorted out before GR.

Otherwise there's absolutely nothing to stop lazy abusers rolling a Praetorian, powerlevelling them via exploits in the AE, getting bored, farming tickets and repeating. The longer it goes on the harder it is to undo the damage this player-led exploitation is doing.

In my opinion, this is a massive over-reaction.

Eco.


MArcs:

The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Arctic_Princess View Post
It's the fault of greedy players
Right. The devs bear no responsibility at all for implementing a system without adequate safeguards or oversight to minimize the potential for abuse.

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I liken that reaction to various politicians in the UK who tried to claim that their expenses were legitimate, despite evidence to the contrary. There are other Real Life examples but I have no wish to invoke Godwin's Law.
*sigh*

Before this thread devolves further, can we stop with the tired, worn-out & absurd attempts to make some kind of moral comparison between real life actions and anything that happens in a videogame?

The us vs. them mentality doesn't add anything to this discussion.

Quote:
I would then like to see the arcs that contain exploits removed and the publishing privileges of the globals responsible removed.

I would also like to see some evidence of housekeeping, namely the removal of arcs that were exploits that no longer work due to the string of hotfixes.
I agree. If the GM staff was more proactive and aggressive about this, it probably wouldn't be nearly as rampant as it has been since day one.

Quote:
As it stands, the AE is predominantly used by abusers of the system, who will cry out that they're entitled to abuse the system because the tool is there for them to do so. Despite evidence to the contrary.
Gamers will be gamers. Effort spent trying to alter human nature is ultimately wasted. Better to expend that effort on a system that prevents "abuse" in the first place.

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The longer it goes on the harder it is to undo the damage this player-led exploitation is doing.
I don't think the damage can ever be undone. It's already occurred and fundamentally altered the current state of the game.


 

Posted

My solutions to the problem would probably be the opposite of what the developers approach seems to be:

- Sanction the activity. After all, people would sit in doorways and do absolutely nothing to earn level 1-50 for 5 years in this game. Literally nothing. As in NOTHING. After that and considering the fact that it went on for 5 years, the entire concept of risk versus reward sort of fell by the wayside.

- Have authors clearly define an arc as a 'story arc' versus a 'leveling arc.'

- Change the interface so that 'leveling arcs' have their own space and are not included with 'story arcs.'

The reason I say all of this is because it does not matter to me what people do to get 50 alts to 50. What they do does not affect me at all. I generally do not play with them and the only time their activities affect me at all is when they mistakenly play one of my arcs, give it 1 star because it is not what they want to do, and go on about their business.

The people who do not want to exert any effort to level their characters will always find a way to do so no matter what the developers do. It is simply their nature.


 

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Originally Posted by Sister_Twelve View Post
- Have authors clearly define an arc as a 'story arc' versus a 'leveling arc.'

- Change the interface so that 'leveling arcs' have their own space and are not included with 'story arcs.'
.
I could get behind that if:

1: Leveling arcs that attempt to use exploits, loopholes, or anything that made them more advantageous than dev-created missions are nuked with extreme prejudice and the authors lose access to MA.

2: Leveling arcs that are labeled as "story arcs" are nuked with extreme prejudice and their authors lose access to MA.

3: All arcs currently in the system are labeled "story arcs" by default, and any that are found to not be such, see #2.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

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I have, after some very careful thought, deleted my MA folders and unpublished all of my arcs.

Yes, that includes the DC.
Alright, I've done my best to stay out of discussion/debate/flamewar until now, but I have to reply to THIS comment.

Arctic_Princess, regardless of your frustration with the latest patch, the rampant exploitative farming in various MA arcs, and/or the Devs' handling of the AE system until now, THIS decision just... astounds me.

I know there are many, MANY players who have designed arcs in the AE system who would love nothing more than to have their work granted the title "Developers' Choice", including myself.

While my own work may or may not be of high enough quality to earn that title, if any of the arcs in my "Galactic Protectorate" series was recognized by the Dev team in such a way, unpublishing the arc from the system would be the LAST decision I would ever consider. Personally, I think it would be like a slap in the face to those MA authors who have tried and have yet to succeed in earning that title.

If you truly believe your grievances with the Devs are so vast that you need to take such an extreme stand for your "message" to be heard, then go ahead. It's your arc. But I think throwing away such a presitigious distinction within the AE community would be tragic.




Supplemental Galactic Protectorate Fanfic