Regarding Recent Changes to Architect


Aliana Blue

 

Posted

Hey everyone,

We wanted to take a moment to address issues that have come up regarding the latest patch that has been released. We certainly understand a lot of your concerns and we want to do our best to alleviate them.

The change that has been implemented is a temporary change to combat a long standing exploit. This was a stopgap fix that we had to put out until we could come up with a more permanent solution. We certainly do not want to leave your arcs in a state where using them in non-exploitive ways results in little to no experience being gained.

Myself, pohsyb, Television, War Witch, along with everyone else here involved in the operations of Mission Architect, are doing everything we can to arrive at a solution that we can all agree on.

We currently plan to implement a solution in issue 17 or soon thereafter (and I mean actual soon and not Soon™) . We can't go into detail about what exactly is planned, but it will alleviate the current issue that many of you are having, which is finding your normal arcs are rewarding little experience.

Anyone who has a normal story arc that is drastically affected by this change should not go about overhauling your work. We are going to make sure that this upcoming fix will stop exploitive behavior within Architect while also allowing you all to be as creative as you want within the system - without extremely negative consequences.

Dr. Aeon


Follow me on my blog or on twitter:
Dr. Aeon's Blog

Dr. Aeon's Twitter

 

Posted

Doc, you guys have probably already figured this out, but the stopgap solutions that are currently in (namely the custom-power-selection XP reduction and now the allies/etc. one) should really get hammered down to a permanent, less harsh solution when Going Rogue actually hits. Not shortly thereafter or soon enough after it.

GR is likely going to produce an influx of players (or so we hope), not so much new as people who've gone on a break and may be lured back in by the new shinies. If GR is going to work as the three stage content in Praetoria/Move to Paragon or the Isles/Back for more, there's going to be a good population of newly leveled alts who could get back into the AE buildings if the system is actually ship-shape and settled down, without these stopgap solutions.

GR could very well revitalize AE, if the latter is ready when the former hits that is.


Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!

It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...

The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013

 

Posted

I'm sure you guys are on the ball with this, but just to recap the things I said:

The current issue is that some pets take their share of exp while others do not. Attacking pets take exp when they attack. Buffing (and debuffing) pets do not. All of these contribute in a way, but only attacking pets actually take points from you.

The new system doesn't fix or change this. It makes no attempt to consider what a pet is or what it does. Ideally, pets with buffs/debuffs should take away exp overall. Otherwise, the way the system is set up, pets who only attack are DOUBLY penalized by the new exp tax, and a small number of buff/debuff only pets are not affected at all. This more or less gives farmers incentive, even permission to give themselves a buffbot.

A system that's fair to everyone would need to involve imposing an exp tax for every buff or debuff power that every allied creature has. These powers currently contribute without taking away experience, unlike pets who only attack. That should be fixed without overly taxing for offensive-only pets. Nobody ever exploited AE using pets that only punch, shoot, or stab badguys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

Posted

I'm a little disappointed you didn't wait the month (or two) to have the 'right' solution for what you've stated is a long-standing problem.

Actually, I'm a lot disappointed. Subscription cancelled.


 

Posted

Thank you for the post explaining the situation and coming solution. I'm sure it will help alleviate a lot of frustration for players/creators.


Kohei-Vigilance Committee Founder

"Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once." - Caesar by Shakespeare

AE ARCS: search for Kohei, Vigilance Committee, or...
#365403: Arch-Nemesis Inc.
#130465: The Dark Side of Time
#328975: Power Broker
#159392: Animal Uprising
#70770: Attack of the Bee People
#331282: Universal Evil

 

Posted

Glad to hear a fix is on the way.


 

Posted

Thank goodness. I suspected as much, but glad you came out and mentioned it to put our fears to rest!


Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.

Current Team Project: Pending

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Wormwood View Post
I'm a little disappointed you didn't wait the month (or two) to have the 'right' solution for what you've stated is a long-standing problem.

Actually, I'm a lot disappointed. Subscription cancelled.
I'm curious why, after five years, this is the straw that broke the camel's back?

We've seen hotfixes and temporary solutions come down the pipe before, often with a much longer promised wait time for the "permanent solution" (see: PVP 2.0). In this case, we are being told that the permanent fix is coming with Issue 17, or shortly thereafter (definately before Going Rogue), which is supposed to release later this month.

Some good stories are adversely affected (the amazing Teen Phalanx story, for one ), but there was no way they could have let the jelly bean exploit stand once it got out how to remove the attack powers from your custom critter allies.

The alternative is bringing out the banhammer again, which I'm sure no one wants a repeat of from last year.

Just curious. I can see being hot about it now, especially if one or more of your stories was adversely affected. I tested one of mine last night, and it was hit, so I removed it for now and saved the file on my local drive to be brought out again when the permanent solution is in.

Here's hoping you decided to stick around after all. Don't give away all your stuff quite yet.


New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Wormwood View Post
I'm a little disappointed you didn't wait the month (or two) to have the 'right' solution for what you've stated is a long-standing problem.

Actually, I'm a lot disappointed. Subscription cancelled.
I actually lol'ed at this. Thanks.


@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Wormwood View Post
I'm a little disappointed you didn't wait the month (or two) to have the 'right' solution for what you've stated is a long-standing problem.

Actually, I'm a lot disappointed. Subscription cancelled.
I will give you credit. Not very many players have the guts to flame-bait a developer in the developer's own thread.

Anyways, onto the topic at hand, or rather what I wanted to comment on:

Quote:
Doc, you guys have probably already figured this out, but the stopgap solutions that are currently in (namely the custom-power-selection XP reduction and now the allies/etc. one) should really get hammered down to a permanent, less harsh solution when Going Rogue actually hits. Not shortly thereafter or soon enough after it.
There are a few rather large issues with this statement Aliana Blue. One of those presumes that there is a single solution that will make all players happy. The reality of development is that the developers probably will not be able to please all the players with the changes. They will, however, seek to please as many players as possible.

Another issues is the presumption that a permanent fix is possible. Given the nature of the game itself, the changing nature of content over each level, as well as the ever growing addition of content to the AE system, means that a permanent fix is not possible. Just take a quick look at the known AE exploits so far. Pretty much each time the developers nail down one known exploit, somebody else comes up with yet another way to work the system. Some of these new exploits have depended on new content being added into the AE system. Ergo, it stands to reason that as the developers continue to add content, somebody will look for ways to abuse that content.

Ergo... a permanent fix by Going Rogue, or any other date, is practically impossible. The developers rely on feedback from various beta tests to identify and deal with most possible types of exploits, but an all encompassing solution that can deal with everything AE can do, or could do... is very unlikely.


 

Posted

I only recently came back after a year away. Among other things, I was disappointed to see many things that were 'right around the corner' for AE still in the 'real soon now' category (like properly functioning custom powers).

To see yet another problem where the devs place the fun of folks using the system right below the 'exploit' of those using the system wrong makes it very clear this is not a new design philosophy, and one that will be in place for the forseeable future.

AE is the only reason I came back. So.

I have too many characters to give away all of my stuff, though I did wipe my arcs.


 

Posted

So - problem all solved, we just need to be a bit patient. End of raging please, people.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Wormwood View Post
I only recently came back after a year away. Among other things, I was disappointed to see many things that were 'right around the corner' for AE still in the 'real soon now' category (like properly functioning custom powers).

To see yet another problem where the devs place the fun of folks using the system right below the 'exploit' of those using the system wrong makes it very clear this is not a new design philosophy, and one that will be in place for the forseeable future.

AE is the only reason I came back. So.

I have too many characters to give away all of my stuff, though I did wipe my arcs.

There is using the system, and "using" the system. If players are doing things with the current set up that fall too far outside of what the intent of the system is (no matter if it's PvP, or AE, or something in PvE), the Devs have full rights and responsibility to take care of those outliers. If you choose to live in that gray area, don't be upset when your toy gets taken away or changed.

If you don't have the patience to hang with AE as it goes through its evolution, there's no hope for you. Every MMO changes, and not everyone is happy with any change. Fact of life. To expect otherwise is just gonna make your brain hurt.


Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
Otherwise, the way the system is set up, pets who only attack are DOUBLY penalized by the new exp tax, and a small number of buff/debuff only pets are not affected at all.
This is the problem with my arcs. I put allies in for players who can't solo the content. The pets attack all the time, don't buff, and draw aggro to themselves. Players who don't need the help can let the pet pull a Fusionette or just ditch it at the earliest opportunity.


 

Posted

Falling outside the system, like having a rescue objective or defendible object, which apparently takes an XP hit?

As for 'every MMO changes,' they are quite up-front that this isn't the intended fix, that this isn't meant to make anyone happy except a general 'cut down on exploiting.'


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon View Post
We currently plan to implement a solution in issue 17 or soon thereafter (and I mean actual soon and not Soon™) . We can't go into detail about what exactly is planned,
If they keep to their usual pattern, the "temporary" fix will be swept under the rug and conveniently forgotten about until the population simply accepts the fact that this is now a permanent "feature" of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Wormwood View Post
To see yet another problem where the devs place the fun of folks using the system right below the 'exploit' of those using the system wrong makes it very clear this is not a new design philosophy, and one that will be in place for the forseeable future.
I have to agree with this statement. The AE system has suffered horribly from a long string of short-sighted or flat-out retarded design flaws and haphazard swings of the nerf hammer since before it even made it to the live servers. Whoever is supposed to be in charge of this thing doesn't seem to have a clue or care about the carnage they leave behind among the players that actually try to use the thing as intended.

If you want to punish farmers, then go punish them. Don't break the MA anymore.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Wormwood View Post
I'm a little disappointed you didn't wait the month (or two) to have the 'right' solution for what you've stated is a long-standing problem.

Actually, I'm a lot disappointed. Subscription cancelled.
You know who Aeon is? He's Fearghas, from Virtue. He's one of our own. The Devs are "our own," too--but Fearghas REALLY is. I would trust him with a great many things...I can certainly trust him to take good care of the legitimate player content.

Your post just smacks of, "My latest exploit got fixed? I'm going to ragequit."


There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.

 

Posted

I agree with DumpleBerry. Dr. Aeon knows and understands the concerns of content creators. I'm sure it pains him to know how this affects the 20(?) arcs he created as a player, and he will do whatever he can to help the creators out.

That being said, he's not omnipotent, so we've got to cut him some slack.


Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
There are a few rather large issues with this statement Aliana Blue.
No, not really.

Quote:
One of those presumes that there is a single solution that will make all players happy. The reality of development is that the developers probably will not be able to please all the players with the changes. They will, however, seek to please as many players as possible.
I don't expect a single solution that will make all players happy, I'm not even sure why you think I presume that. I expect a solution that the developers will agree is a good long-term strategy. A.k.a., not a stopgap.

Quote:
Another issues is the presumption that a permanent fix is possible. Given the nature of the game itself, the changing nature of content over each level, as well as the ever growing addition of content to the AE system, means that a permanent fix is not possible. Just take a quick look at the known AE exploits so far. Pretty much each time the developers nail down one known exploit, somebody else comes up with yet another way to work the system. Some of these new exploits have depended on new content being added into the AE system. Ergo, it stands to reason that as the developers continue to add content, somebody will look for ways to abuse that content.
I'm talking, again, specifically about the issues that have been named as stopgap solutions. That is, solutions that are not good and are overly heavy and in need of a more specific and detailed fix that the developers haven't had time to create and implement. It has nothing to do with new additions to AE.

Quote:
Ergo... a permanent fix by Going Rogue, or any other date, is practically impossible.
Call it long term strategy if fix doesn't do it for you, but the idea is that these stopgaps, which are far too heavy handed and not very specific, should not be there when Going Rogue comes. I haven't said anything about new exploits not being addressed, I've specifically talked about the quick fixes. These can be permanently hammered down with a change in the system that, sure, may need specific tweaks later on. Same way powersets are tweaked from time to time, but the powerset system remains.

Example: Selecting custom powers can reduce the XP of a mob to zero if you unselect a key power. Possible solution: Have each power selected give an individual weight to the final XP (so that just missing the lowest attack may not remove all XP if the rest of the powerset of the custom is selected). Final solution? Yes. Sure, later on someone may find a specific combination that makes weak critters that give lots of XP, that can be fixed by addressing those individual powers and not just hammering everything.

This is just an example, since this isn't the thread to make suggestions for something the devs have probably hashed out to death already internally. Point is: You can do a change in the system that will be pretty final even if it may require small specific tweaks later on.

Quote:
The developers rely on feedback from various beta tests to identify and deal with most possible types of exploits, but an all encompassing solution that can deal with everything AE can do, or could do... is very unlikely.
You don't need to tell me that, specially as I've never asked for such a chimera. I'm asking for specific systems that don't rely on these heavy handed stopgaps. That is, exactly what Doc Aeon said:

"This was a stopgap fix that we had to put out until we could come up with a more permanent solution."

And what I'm saying is: this "more permanent solution" should be there before or when GR hits.

Clear now?


Players' Choice Awards: Best Dual-Origin Level Range Arc!

It's a new era, the era of the Mission Architect. Can you save the Universe from...

The Invasion of the Bikini-clad Samurai Vampiresses from Outer Space? - Arc ID 61013

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon View Post
The change that has been implemented is a temporary change to combat a long standing exploit. This was a stopgap fix that we had to put out until we could come up with a more permanent solution. We certainly do not want to leave your arcs in a state where using them in non-exploitive ways results in little to no experience being gained.

Myself, pohsyb, Television, War Witch, along with everyone else here involved in the operations of Mission Architect, are doing everything we can to arrive at a solution that we can all agree on.

We currently plan to implement a solution in issue 17 or soon thereafter (and I mean actual soon and not Soon™) . We can't go into detail about what exactly is planned, but it will alleviate the current issue that many of you are having, which is finding your normal arcs are rewarding little experience.
This just pisses me off even more.

You claim that you have a more elegant fix coming with i17 or "soon". The pre-download for i17 began today, indicating that it is likely only a few weeks away. Also GR pre-order are supposed to get access to Demon Summoning in April, and now it's a week into it and still no sign of it while Dual Pistols arrived right at the start of March.

And this buffbot exploit has existed for months.

What made this so damn important that you had to screw over so much of your customers, many of who weren't farming anyway, RIGHT NOW when you could have waited a few more weeks?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry View Post
You know who Aeon is? He's Fearghas, from Virtue. He's one of our own.
So what? That doesn't make him any less fallible.


 

Posted

Thanks for the information, Dr. Aeon.

We (Well, most of us) know everyone over there cares a great deal and must have been working things out. It's good to let everyone know though, no question.

I'm sure you all know the problems that this change has caused and there has been some great feedback and test documentations about it on the forums.

So, I wish you a speedy solution and much happiness for everyone (Except the exploiters).

I have to say... the negative affect on the rest of the legitimate AE content was harsh this time 'round.

I do love and appreciate the AE for non-xp concerns, but, just as the Team wishes for also, many of us love it for the alternate means to progress at a pace consistent with the rest of the game (not exploiting, but not gimped).

A tricky balance, no question.

Best of luck!

Or... should I say... FOR SCIENCE!


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Wormwood View Post
I'm a little disappointed you didn't wait the month (or two) to have the 'right' solution for what you've stated is a long-standing problem.
Quoted without the ragequit.

I would like to know what suddenly made the problem so bad that a solution had to be implemented RITE NAO, while a new issue is in closed beta, preventing it from being tested at all.

Your stop-gap solution would be bad enough if it only affected allies. It does not. It is flat-out BROKEN. People figured out that it was broken within about an hour of the patch notes being posted. So please explain how something so broken ever made it to live, I would really like to know.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightfoot View Post
I'm curious why, after five years, this is the straw that broke the camel's back?

We've seen hotfixes and temporary solutions come down the pipe before, often with a much longer promised wait time for the "permanent solution" (see: PVP 2.0). In this case, we are being told that the permanent fix is coming with Issue 17, or shortly thereafter (definately before Going Rogue), which is supposed to release later this month.

Some good stories are adversely affected (the amazing Teen Phalanx story, for one ), but there was no way they could have let the jelly bean exploit stand once it got out how to remove the attack powers from your custom critter allies.

The alternative is bringing out the banhammer again, which I'm sure no one wants a repeat of from last year.

Just curious. I can see being hot about it now, especially if one or more of your stories was adversely affected. I tested one of mine last night, and it was hit, so I removed it for now and saved the file on my local drive to be brought out again when the permanent solution is in.

Here's hoping you decided to stick around after all. Don't give away all your stuff quite yet.
My back too was broken by this. I canceled my subscription as well.

Granted, this wasn't the only reason why, and I'm trying not to be a baby about it. Maybe I shouldn't even bother posting about it. I doubt you guys could care less if I canceled my subscription. I understand.

But this happens all the damn time. I start to enjoy a feature of this game, and BAM, the devs "fix" it. It happened with PvP. I looooved the old PvP. The only reason I played this game pre-I13 was cause of PvP. BAM. PvP 2.0 comes in, and it's not fun anymore. It wasn't needed.

I enjoyed everyone being on an even scale with SO's. BAM. Inventions. It still hasn't grown on me. Maybe it's cause I'm old school, but I hate the invention system. I know it's not required, and you can do just fine with SO's, but I always feel inferior to those with "teh purple sets lol". So I have to spend time getting a ridiculous amount of inf. to stay in competition with those people.

I've played the regular PvE missions so much, I can just about remember every mission from every contact. It got boring. Leveling felt slow and tedious. Then comes AE. New content yay! And then comes the farms. Now I can level up a character to 22 relatively easy. The part I hate most about CoX is that you do the low level content SO much, it's awful. It doesn't help the fact that you're undeniably weak, and I suffer until SOs. I love the farms. I know the devs don't want people leveling up this fast, so I understand this fix. No problem. But I just can't bring myself to do the tedious PvE anymore.

So every time I start to have fun with something, the devs change it, and I'm just tired of it. That's why I too am canceling my subscription. I'll be back for sure for GR, hoping to see some new content finally. But I wish the devs would quit screwing around with the stupid **** in this game, and just focus on more important details.

Anyways, see y'all in July hopefully.