Regarding Recent Changes to Architect
Like I said in another post, remove the XP and rewards from the AE all together, then anyonecan create any mission they want and put 2,000 AVS into 1 mission and can all be 1 shotted with brawl, at least it won't be a exploit anymore as you will be removing the risk vs reward scenario.
Eliminate the XP and the farmers will leave the AE system and do other things, like farming regular missions again. That way all the RPers and such can enjoy the AE system for what it was truly designed for.
Then as Arctic_Princess stated, remove/flush the AE arcs with those specific key words, it won;t be hard to do, just a little extra time and the AE system will be exactly what is was intended for.
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All I know is the AE is becoming a ghost town due to all the changes
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And what have we seen?
Massive player exploiting the likes of which we haven't seen before. And now that the dev's have fixed the exploits and reduce the rewards? A ghost town. Noone but a small majority of players is intrested enough, or creative enough to use this system the way the dev's wanted it used. And of them, even fewer are talanted enough to make an engaging story.
AE was, and still is, just a really bad idea.
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@PrinceSnake
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There are currently over 3,000 pages of 'arcs' in the AE. The following keywords denote blatant farming and powerlevelling: Farm Tickets H.D.S. Anti-Portal XP (Meow/Miaow etc arcs are still on the system! Delete them!) Although the Developers have a job to rebalance everythign and have gotten it wrong on more than one occasion, Player Greed and the desire to achieve something for nothing have created this problem. If farmers, mass exploiters, cheaters and the like are so sure that they have a good argument why they should be allowed to continue doing so then why are there multiple copies of the same 'arcs'? Just given a different flavour? I am not calling for account bans, suspensions or such. I'm calling for suspension from the AE with regards to creating content. If you can't play responsibly, then the privelege is removed. End of story. |
You could also do a good cleanup by deleting all arcs and then you will see that after the nerving only the good stories will be republished.
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Like I said in another post, remove the XP and rewards from the AE all together, then anyonecan create any mission they want and put 2,000 AVS into 1 mission and can all be 1 shotted with brawl, at least it won't be a exploit anymore as you will be removing the risk vs reward scenario.
Eliminate the XP and the farmers will leave the AE system and do other things, like farming regular missions again. That way all the RPers and such can enjoy the AE system for what it was truly designed for. Then as Arctic_Princess stated, remove/flush the AE arcs with those specific key words, it won;t be hard to do, just a little extra time and the AE system will be exactly what is was intended for. |
The problem is, that's not very many people at all, and the dev's sunk WAY to much time, effort, and money on this feature to have noone hardly use it. Which is why they keep trying to "fix" it. Trying to find a balance or chaseing after the new expliot. Never going to work. Exploits will keep poping up so long as rewards for AE are worthwile at all. But no rewards means no players which means there newest feature they spent god knows how long on is a faiulier. It's catch 22 and they are stuck with it. I hope they relise this one days soon, pull all XP from the system, and tickts too, and just move on with there lives... but i doubt it.
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We certainly understand a lot of your concerns and we want to do our best to alleviate them.
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The change that has been implemented is a temporary change to combat a long standing exploit. This was a stopgap fix that we had to put out until we could come up with a more permanent solution. |
I honestly do not believe that there was such an urgent exploit that required you to affect every singe arc with release captives, destroy and object etc etc in it. Not buffbots, not 18+ helpers but release captives.
You left the mitos in the AE for ages. The HDS runs were an epidemic for long time. Yet you say you have to nerf every non-farm arc for a month while you sort "long standing exploit"? In net parlance: "O'rly?"Any exploit that bad would be all over the boards, all over the channels and be spammed in Atlas/Cap of any high population server.
Not having heard a sausage about it, I call hogwash on your "long standing exploit"; a badly-concieved patch is much more likely.
We certainly do not want to leave your arcs in a state where using them in non-exploitive ways results in little to no experience being gained. |
Myself, pohsyb, Television, War Witch, along with everyone else here involved in the operations of Mission Architect, are doing everything we can to arrive at a solution that we can all agree on. |
Here's what I wrote in the Discussion forum:
Let me offer some constructive ideas:
1) If you want to nerf allies, nerf ALLIES over 10. Not captives or items to be destroyed. ALLIES who help and fight/buff. The mission computer in the ITF doesn't help the party one whit; why would you penalize people for it being there? 2) Actually remove arcs which only have one mob type in their arc. I have no idea how hard this would be but they are still out there; remove them and free space for decent arcs 3) Remove arcs which are reported as farms |
We currently plan to implement a solution in issue 17 or soon thereafter (and I mean actual soon and not Soon™) . |
By the you re-patch (if it isn't forgetten about) it will be too late. Anyone who would run or create an arc won't bother.
We can't go into detail about what exactly is planned, but it will alleviate the current issue that many of you are having, which is finding your normal arcs are rewarding little experience. |
Anyone who has a normal story arc that is drastically affected by this change should not go about overhauling your work. We are going to make sure that this upcoming fix will stop exploitive behavior within Architect while also allowing you all to be as creative as you want within the system - without extremely negative consequences. Dr. Aeon |
I hope I17 and GR has better testing than this because if not, they're going to be one huge mess.
It's incredible that the amount of dev time and marketing that went into MA and it has consistantly been one error after another.
I suppose I should thank someone for writing that post. But it's hard to because it's such nonsense. It's smoke and mirrors, vague hints of unknown issues and promised future fixes. Pfft.
SAVE CoX info:
Titan Network efforts
Saving CoX events/FB info
Eliminate the XP and the farmers will leave the AE system and do other things, like farming regular missions again. That way all the RPers and such can enjoy the AE system for what it was truly designed for. |
And this whole Ghost Town theory is bunk. There are many players, like me, that use AE to run other people's story arcs for entertainment and tickets. However, only the developers truly know the amount of players using AE, and I wonder if they can differentiate between players using it for farms, exploits or intended purposes.
I'd be pissed if they removed the EXP from AE, that's a terrible idea. I'm no RPer and I use AE quite often.
And this whole Ghost Town theory is bunk. There are many players, like me, that use AE to run other people's story arcs for entertainment and tickets. However, only the developers truly know the amount of players using AE, and I wonder if they can differentiate between players using it for farms, exploits or intended purposes. |
Yeah, we may have 50 people out of a few thousand that use it, but you said it yourself, you run it for entertainment and tickets, that has nothing to do with XP. You can still run the AE mission for entertainment and tickets, you just wouldn't get XP.
If you want XP, go run normal mission, leave the AE for creative fun thing people can create and share with others, it doesn't have to have rewards, hell if you ask me the AE system alone is a reward all on its own, to be able to create your own story arc.
Again, remove the XP and the exploitive behavior will be solved with the AE System. If you don't want to remove XP from the entire AE System, then remove it from the Mobs and attach a certain amount of XP on the mission complete. Assign a different amount of XP depending on the length of the mission and its criteria for the mission arc.
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I'd be pissed if they removed the EXP from AE, that's a terrible idea. I'm no RPer and I use AE quite often.
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Fact is, given a game with two systems, one of which offers rewards and one of which doesn't, the players will choose the one that does. "The way it was meant to be used" and all that is a load of horseshit, the system is there to create story arcs in the game, and the game includes rewards. There's nothing wrong with wanting rewards when playing, no matter what those who for whatever reason want the AE dead say.
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You know, these "explainations" really should be posted with the Patch Notes. I mrean, really, do you guys not know that every time AE is nerf'd, the forums will cry DOOOOOOOOOOOM?
Anyone who has a normal story arc that is drastically affected by this change should not go about overhauling your work. We are going to make sure that this upcoming fix will stop exploitive behavior within Architect while also allowing you all to be as creative as you want within the system - without extremely negative consequences.
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I'd be pissed if they removed the EXP from AE, that's a terrible idea. I'm no RPer and I use AE quite often.
And this whole Ghost Town theory is bunk. There are many players, like me, that use AE to run other people's story arcs for entertainment and tickets. However, only the developers truly know the amount of players using AE, and I wonder if they can differentiate between players using it for farms, exploits or intended purposes. |
Must be a server thing. I always run my AE contact real fast cause of my OCD, and haven't seen a single person in the atlas AE building in MONTHS. Totally empty. I never heard AE spam anymore. Ok, maybe once in a blue moon. I can honestly say, in all my gloabl chat channels i'm a member of, only ONCE in... the last 6 months have i seen someone spam for an AE team. And i remember THAT because it was so weird to SEE an AE team forming in a long time.
I suppose bigger server may have more people using AE, obviously. Bigger servers also have more active PVP. That doesn't make it "popular" though. (I don't know what server your on, but mine is Triumph. No AE activity, no PvP. We are the PVE server. LOL)
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
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I very much doubt the devs will remove all rewards from AE any time soon. It seems like some people want the rewards removed so that they can say "ah, I told you so!" when nobody uses it, as if it validated their reasoning that AE is used only for powerleveling farms.
Fact is, given a game with two systems, one of which offers rewards and one of which doesn't, the players will choose the one that does. "The way it was meant to be used" and all that is a load of horseshit, the system is there to create story arcs in the game, and the game includes rewards. There's nothing wrong with wanting rewards when playing, no matter what those who for whatever reason want the AE dead say. |
Tickets which offer a better rate of return on items people want on the market than merits do.
Just remove the xp and up the ticket cap and number of tickets each mission gives.
Problem solved.
The reality is if they removed all rewards from the AE, barely anyone would use it. They know it. You know it. And I know it.
Not when there are other, faster ways to level up.
EDIT: My issue isn't the exploit fix. THAT is/was/will ALWAYS be needed. My issue is (as MANY others have already stated) 1) the constant whackmole that the devs have been having to do with the AE to fix exploit after exploit. We'll never know what that time they spent on it could have been used for AND my bigger issue:
2) The fact that such an obviously flawed patch (someone mentioned that within an hour the PLAYERS found every single flaw with the patch) made it LIVE. I have to wonder if there was anything else that the patch would have broken (mission xp in regular missions) would it ever have been caught? And no, the fact that Issue 17 is in CLOSED BETA IS NOT A F&*^ING excuse. SORRY! The fact the players (primarily you AE Authors) found the problems with this patch makes PS Q&A looking like a freaking joke.
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Aura:
Well, I was only interested in doing AE content, period. So no XP would mean I... never leveled. Ever.
So that wouldn't have worked for me.
Aura:
Well, I was only interested in doing AE content, period. So no XP would mean I... never leveled. Ever. So that wouldn't have worked for me. |
I have a funny feeling if PS polled the regular in-game population about whether folks would do AE content without XP, PS would get a majority response similar to yours.
No matter how many times I hear "its about story!!!!elventy111!!!!" the reality is this is STILL an MMO.
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To be fair:
I appreciate that Dr. Aeon, WarWitch, etc and the rest are going over this and explained the situation. Saying something is better than them being silent.
In the future I request that ALL patches be properly tested, including exploit fixes. If you don't want the exploit getting out, put the server in a quickie (a day or so) "closed" mode.
This patch really should NOT have made it live without any testing since you already have a trusthworthy audience on test who could have tested this patch properly for you. Also in this case the exploit was widely known already, so would have been no harm in letting the players test this patch properly before it hit live. Worse case you could have PM'd 5 to 10 of your most prolific authors to TEST the patch for you. Would not have taken long, as most of them were the ones who found the not working as intended parts, as soon as the patch was out.
Just a lesson for the future.
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This is all I have to say...
That is all
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You know Dr. Aeon, it's interesting that you're preaching patience when you know full well (or should know as an employee) that time isn't a luxury PS/CoX can afford. I know where to find NCSoft quarterly reports and what to look for when it comes to CoX revenue. I'm sorry but I couldn't help myself. This is part of what I do for a living. In anycase, since the introduction of AE in April of last year, CoX sales revenue all the sudden plummeted 40% (compared to a 43% revenue decline in a rolling 12 month period ending in Q4 2009). Basically, during the course of Q1 2009, CoX revenue went down 3% which can be attributed to the natural decline of most aging MMOs. Then came AE in Q2 in the final two quarters of 2009, revenue fell off a cliff and dropped 40%.
Next let's look at the chronology of AE itself. The first 2-3 months after the introduction of AE, there was no doubt that it was wildly popular and widely utilized. Everyone and their extended family were crammed into the AE buildings in AP or Mercy/Cap. That kind of player interest couldn't have been bad from the revenue standpoint and the fact that revenue only dropped 3% from Q1 to Q2 of last year seems to reflect just that. Then came the fine-tuning or nerfs to be more blunt. In chronological progression, ticket cap, custom critter exp, MM pets, and now allied NPCs, just to name a few of the big ones. If you log on during peak hours right now, the players in Mercy and Cap AE buildings are a mere small fraction of where it was a year ago. Going back to the revenue decline in 2009, you can't honestly tell me that these two trends had no correlation. The fact is that drastic and persistent nerfing of popular (and maybe even integral) features in a MMO can contribute significantly to the eventual demise of the game itself. After all it has already happened several times in the short history of MMORPGs. Two prominent examples would be SWG and more recently, Tabula Rasa. Now let us consider the obvious fact that PS is not exactly flush with subscribers and rolling in dough (at least compared to years before). It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the bigwigs at NCSoft corporate have already expressed their concern over the steep decline in CoX revenue last year. After all in the corporate world, if a product line suddenly loses 40% of sales revenue in a matter of months, it usually gets discontinued. NCSoft may be willing to deal with it for now given that the overall company profitability skyrocketed last year due to the popularity of AION in Asia but how long is it going to last? What if GR doesn't generate as much revenue as desired? That projection isn't all that far fetched given the short term memory nature of the MMO population, ample competition and the fact that CoX is an aging game. This is not to mention that patience isn't exactly a virtue in the world dominated by corporate balance sheets. With all of this in mind, I am simply shocked that you guys haven't switched to a more conservative approach when it comes to AE fine-tuning. The nerf now and deal with it later approach as exhibited by this latest episode is extremely shortsighted and irrational. It's almost as if PS is willing to alienate some player now while banking on GR to inject fresh blood later but that scenerio is far from a guarantee. Regardless of what the "good riddance, let them leave" or "we don't need players like that anyways" crowd is saying, CoX is currently not on a solid enough footing to be able to afford the hemorrhaging of even more subscribers (revenue). P.S: If you dislike my bluntness and challenging tone, feel free to put a temporary or even permanent ban on me. If that is to be a consequence of me saying what needs to said, so be it. My main account was already canceled prior to all of this and this account only has about two weeks left. However, allow me to say this one final thing. The reason I canceled originally was due to a perfect storm of busier real life schedule, low CoV population and other diversions. It was not the result of some ragequit over any particular prior issue. However, now that I've seen the way this particular nerf was handled and the continuation of collective tunnel vision on the part of PS, I doubt I would've renewed anyways. Good luck. |
I'm not disputing what you said, i can't, i don't KNOW the numbers. I just know from first hand experience, on a small server, there seem to be more "new" people or names i haven't seen running around then there was a year ago. Teams, at least on blue side, seem somewhat easier to get. It feels like more people are around not less. I'd imagine a 40% drop in membership would be very noticeable. *shrug* Of course, i don't know. I'm not an accountant or businessman of any kind really. (I'm an Import/Export compliance specialist for my company, FYI. )
I hope CoH has at LEAST a year left in it... to get me to TOR without a lapse in an MMO i'm interested in. I hope it has more life in it then that actually, but a year will do me. And with GR coming out, i figured that's a safe bet. Can't see an expansion NOT proping up a game for at least that long. Frankly, Id be surprised NCsoft would undergo the expense of an expansion on a product that lost nearly half it's value as shapely as you say... But i don't honestly know. *shrug*
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@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
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Fact is, given a game with two systems, one of which offers rewards and one of which doesn't, the players will choose the one that does. "The way it was meant to be used" and all that is a load of horseshit, the system is there to create story arcs in the game, and the game includes rewards. There's nothing wrong with wanting rewards when playing, no matter what those who for whatever reason want the AE dead say.
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A story with good XP, good meaning equivalent to canon story arcs is a reason to play that arc again. And again with your friends. And again with a random PuG. It's a reason to tell everyone you meet about it.
I had the highest hopes for AE when it was released and still do to this day. I have, however, chosen to basically stop playing AE missions and making arcs for myself and friends until I can be more certain that the kinks in the system have been ironed out. I will not ragequit, cry or moan one way or the other.
The Architect, to me, is an absolutely amazing idea/creation/invention. Unfortunately, like a lot of things, you can internally test them for decades and never cover every scenario that the real world will subject your little gem too. Everything, especially technology, evolves and you must be patient and let the things evolve to the point where future change is minimal and for the most part beneficial.
You can debate the devs faith in the player base but I am not sure what more they could have done. They sorta handed the players blank sheets of paper and a box of crayons and said draw all over your piece of paper and share it with everybody. Unfortunately, some players felt since they had the crayons, that the walls, floors, ceilings, windows and small kitchen appliances were all fair game. Now you can't even see the work of the people that stayed on their piece of paper. It has created quite a mess.
I honestly think the mess will get cleaned up. It may take a while. It may take a white wash of the mission bank. It would not surprise me one bit if the devs said "we are making changes x,y,and z to architect", by a certain date. "At that time all published missions will be wiped from the architect. Please save any missions you wish to preserve and simply republish after the wipe." I think it may take more than one round of wipe/publish/new exploits pop up like weeds/correction/repeat.
This system is too important and too complex to perfect without testing on a MASSIVE scale. We are all living through that testing and it seems that some people cannot see that. The devs have a vision of what they want the Architect to be. They are sticking to that vision. I think they will get there and it will be touted for many years as a landmark system other games should aspire to.
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Actually the nicest thing about the AE system is this (at least for me) is that I can take a lowbie/new toon into an AE building and run content until I get my travel power.
See this way I don't have to run all over King's Row with sprint on running scanner missions hither and yon for a flight pack.
I can run an arc, die and rez downstairs, load up on inspirations, and get enough tickets to buy DO's all in one tiny little building. No running around the place.
Now if someone would make arcs that are soloable for lowbie/new characters that were possible to find with my poor Search abilities that would be awesome.
It would be more awesome if people who made those arcs were 5 starred as a reward from the community, just my thought.
BTW: EXPLOIT Farming hurts everyone, Regular farming not so much.
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Actually the nicest thing about the AE system is this (at least for me) is that I can take a lowbie/new toon into an AE building and run content until I get my travel power.
See this way I don't have to run all over King's Row with sprint on running scanner missions hither and yon for a flight pack. I can run an arc, die and rez downstairs, load up on inspirations, and get enough tickets to buy DO's all in one tiny little building. No running around the place. Now if someone would make arcs that are soloable for lowbie/new characters that were possible to find with my poor Search abilities that would be awesome. It would be more awesome if people who made those arcs were 5 starred as a reward from the community, just my thought. BTW: EXPLOIT Farming hurts everyone, Regular farming not so much. |
Unfortunately they are buried under all the dreck, and impossible to find with the useless search feature.
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There are such arcs. And some of them are very good.
Unfortunately they are buried under all the dreck, and impossible to find with the useless search feature. |
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
Actually, my arc A Hero in Need... (full details in sig) is 5-14 and listed on page 3 with 65 plays and five stars. Also, last I checked Gypsy Roses arc named Suppression is also listed there and is for levels 5-15. Page three is the first page that has any normal player arcs on it.
WN |
Though player arcs really should be on PAGE 1.
Dev's Choice needs to be moved to it's own tab.
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And yet somehow the GMs cannot find these farms, delete them, and ban the creators when we the players can easily find them in a matter of seconds. There's little point in reporting them anymore as weeks later they will still be there, the Devs would rather nerf the hell out of everyone with a tactical nuke than perform a surgical strike on the actual instigators.
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There are over 3000 of them. They can't do it in an automated fashion. There are keywords that can be applied to real things. Someone might have an arc about catgirls, or it might say "this arc gives really low XP," or even be a joke arc about farmers.
They can't do it manually because, well, they'd have to play over 3000 arcs to make sure they aren't legit. And people are posting new farms and things constantly. I'd much rather they spent their time doing something else, even if it's an intern.
They can't start banning people for petty or minor farms, especially stuff that no longer works like meow or bubble farms. For one, we've always worked under the theory that the devs accept regular farming (maybe not happily, but accept), just not exploits. As soon as an intern or the Indian outsource guys start cranking away at these, they'll find something that's kiiiiinda borderline and then we'll have rage threads the likes of which we haven't seen since the last time they punished people for exploiting the AE.
Really the devs can't win on that one. Best bet is to chug through it and report all those old farms clogging up the system yourself and get the team to pay attention to them. Of course, in the end that still means they'd have to play through the 3000 or so arcs to get them taken down. So it's pretty much a wash.
It's not so much that they can't find them. They're just as capable as we are. But they know that if there's anything we FREAKING LOVE to complain about on the forums, it's that the devs are wasting their time doing something when we'd rather they be doing something else (even if it's not even in their department).
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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To see yet another problem where the devs place the fun of folks using the system right below the 'exploit' of those using the system wrong makes it very clear this is not a new design philosophy, and one that will be in place for the forseeable future.
AE is the only reason I came back. So.
I have too many characters to give away all of my stuff, though I did wipe my arcs.
And if AE was you only reason to come back, it was a bad one frankly. AE is an exploit magnet. IMO, it was a bad idea from start to finish. (it's a long rant, i'll not get into) And the dev's have to address powerleveling exploits before any new wave of players hit. PLing new players would give a totally wrong impresion of what this game involves and how deep it can accually be. I'm sure they'er hoping for GR to bring them in, they'd want to keep them after all. Hell, i LOVED playing STO, but i'm about to drop my sub for them ATM cause the game is crasy short and I have nothing to DO atm. A massive PLing exploit for noobis to use and abuse could easily result in a similer feeling for this game, when that isn't the case. Theres ALOT to do in this game. (at least, a whole LOT MORE then STO has.... LOL)
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