Regarding Recent Changes to Architect
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2010-04-08 18:12 in Mission Architect
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But they're much easier to find using this forum (see my thread on the subject for good examples) or the MA Arc Finder channel, which I think by now is generally accepted as the main story-centric MA arc chat, plugging and discusdion channel NA-side. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
There are such arcs. And some of them are very good.
Unfortunately they are buried under all the dreck, and impossible to find with the useless search feature. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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The MA system was "truly designed" to be part of the game experience, a leveling alternative, a source of content. That was the design intent, and the entire model is informed by that intent.|
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Eliminate the XP and the farmers will leave the AE system and do other things, like farming regular missions again. That way all the RPers and such can enjoy the AE system for what it was truly designed for.
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If XP is eliminated, it will no longer be what it was designed for. If XP is eliminated, the whole thing should be redesigned, because that's a different model with different priorities.
And it would not be, I might add, a model that caters to roleplayers. It would only be catering to a very small subset who (mistakenly) believe that game is somehow directly opposed to roleplay/story. That's a terribly small demographic for such a large investment.
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AE was supposed to be an alternative method of leveling, for those bored with the regular content.
Removing XP means it's not an alternative leveling path.
This current patch, also means it's not an alternative leveling path.
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I'd say it'd be like WoW, instead of letting people grind dungeons, or run through quest lines for XP, randomly deciding to nerf quest line exp so badly that dungeons are the only way to go.
There are some really nice stories on the AE system, but am I going to play them when they are offering 1XP per mob?
Nope, I'll be back to farming paper mission after paper mission....
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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You might have already found them, but Two Tickets to Westerly (level 5-12) and Night Calls the Weaver (level 5-10) are both on the front page at the moment and should be doable for a lowbie character.
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Originally Posted by Noght
Now if someone would make arcs that are soloable for lowbie/new characters that were possible to find with my poor Search abilities that would be awesome.
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@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"
the ae fix is not the farmers fault
its the devs.wanna know why?
caiuse their selection in the closed beta thats why. when you changed pvp and re-balanced it*again* you had actual pvpers go in and do it.
if you wanna find exploits in making your own missions you dont send 100 people and 50 stand in atlas and post here how awesome the devs are.send in the experts.
i farmed the crap out of this game since issue 2...no invite here so while devs are in beta and their fanbois are too. nothing gets done.
case in point..when inventions came in i was in closed beta.i was the FIRST and ONLY guy to hit the shard for the entire closed beta to test out drops for inventions.i camped it all night and day, but when i was in cb for 5 issues straight all i saw for feeback was
"omg hi posi"
"this issue rocks you devs are the best!"
not much for feedback...next time you select closed betas make sure you got who you need not who your favorites are.
course i dont farm the ae anymore since the xp nerf..i went back to the old standards..so nerf nerf nerf away!..doesnt bother me!
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Gravity is a myth - everything sucks. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You can debate the philosophy if you want, but you'd basically be arguing to repeal gravity.
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As to the point of fixing it immediately once it becomes virulent, that would be fine if the fix were at least checked. But the buffbot allies issue has been prevalent for over a year - it's been widespread for a looooooong time already. It seems that the major issue is that "nothing happens until broadcast in Atlas Park on Freedom latches onto something". I was told about the jellybeans the day of the patch for the MM pet exploit*, and to be honest, after a quarter of a run the team I was on stopped since we found that we could get faster xp on general-case farms (that, having no helpers, still work just fine) or even old-fashioned non-AE farms that have a chance to get purple IO drops.
So even then, the question that comes to mind is: does a patch that doesn't work to fix a problem that's been widespread for over a year really need to go live to fix a "meh" farm when there's a better solution in the works that will be out in a month?
* - I use "exploit" rarely, as anyone who follows my posts will know. If it doesn't involve using a bug, it's not one. Taking advantage of buffing allies isn't an exploit, any more than teaming with Defenders, Controllers, or Corruptors is. Abuse, sure - exploit, not so much. I'll freely call that one an exploit, though - it still is, to some degree: you still get more pets than you should have, but they're the right level now.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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As one of several people who started arcs addressing the problems this patch has caused, and while I agree with many of the posters' comments here, I'll simply go on record as saying, thanks for the update, Dr. Aeon. Personally, I can't understand why they can't rescind the patch with just a couple weeks wait, but knowing there's a fix in the works -- and that the ultimate goal combines eliminating farms while making those of us legitimate MA users happy -- I'll live with it.
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
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If this is the case, it means that their battle was essentially won before this patch went into place. The really effective exploits have all been ironed out of the system, putting the people who want it easier than the devs think appropriate in Architect to resort to their oldest and least effective tool. Buffbots have been a feature of some missions since AE went live. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's only one reason that can cause that that I'm aware of. The devs have datamined evidence in hand that the problem is being leveraged to increasingly higher degrees, and across an increasingly wider percentage of the player population. At that point, and this is true for every MMO dev team I've ever heard of, action is non-negotiably mandated. You can still argue what but the option to argue if disappears.
You can debate the philosophy if you want, but you'd basically be arguing to repeal gravity. |
This patch essentially tells you that it's OK to fill maps full of enemies to mow down, but you can't make a rewarding mission that uses other kinds of characters. And yes, indeed, this is indeed so wrongheaded, so perversely contrary to the devs' stated goals for AE, that it ought to be undone. The damage it does ought to outweigh any concern about the oldest exploit in the system.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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I can't attest to who was or was not in the Shard itself during I9 beta, but I can say with certainty that having been in basically *every* closed beta your portrayal of it is basically fantasy. *I* was testing Pool A drop rates in I9 beta from almost the very beginning. In fact I started a thread with my drop rate results only to discover someone else had beaten me to it, whereupon I dumped my results into their thread and then switched to testing Pool B end of mission drops. And in between the love-fest posts which are the only ones you apparently saw or remember testers were complaining about, and making suggestions regarding things such as common IO recipes, salvage storage, ingredient-recipe inconsistencies, and the like. I also hammered the devs on things like LotG and GotA being unique, and all the tohit buffs in the invention system (which caused them to get changed to accuracy buffs). There was massive testing and critiquing going on in I9 closed beta.|
Originally Posted by Severe
the ae fix is not the farmers fault
its the devs.wanna know why? caiuse their selection in the closed beta thats why. when you changed pvp and re-balanced it*again* you had actual pvpers go in and do it. if you wanna find exploits in making your own missions you dont send 100 people and 50 stand in atlas and post here how awesome the devs are.send in the experts. i farmed the crap out of this game since issue 2...no invite here so while devs are in beta and their fanbois are too. nothing gets done. case in point..when inventions came in i was in closed beta.i was the FIRST and ONLY guy to hit the shard for the entire closed beta to test out drops for inventions.i camped it all night and day, but when i was in cb for 5 issues straight all i saw for feeback was "omg hi posi" "this issue rocks you devs are the best!" not much for feedback...next time you select closed betas make sure you got who you need not who your favorites are. course i dont farm the ae anymore since the xp nerf..i went back to the old standards..so nerf nerf nerf away!..doesnt bother me! |
There wasn't as much opportunity to be highly critical for Issue 10, but there was a lot of testing of the RWZ and its missions, and those were pretty broken at times. And of course, while people were fawning over Positron they were also complaining about things like the mole machine.
Issue 11 was back to form. People complained about the way combos worked, they complained about the performance of Willpower, they complained about the stalker version of Willpower. The players also specifically got two changes to Willpower: they got its immobilization weakness removed after repeated complaints that lack of immobilization was potentially worse than lack of knockback protection because critters are designed to be able to perma-immobilize in many cases, and they got quick recovery moved from tier 7 to tier 6 which is a massive difference for scrappers and brutes: it makes the power available at level 20 - when stamina would first become available - rather than 28. The testers also beat the crap out of the Ouroboros system and complained about the temp power attenuation.
There was a lot of back and forth testing and debate over Cimerora and the VEATs in Issue 12, day jobs and the merit system in Issue 13, and even the architect in Issue 14.
For you to characterize the closed betas in the way you do, I have to assume you either weren't actually there, or you were there and were not an active participant, or you have such a loaded perspective that you were incapable of seeing what was going on around you. To say the testers were not rigorous or critical in *any* of the closed beta tests going all the way back to CoV beta - and I was in every single one of them - is so contrary to the facts that its insulting. And its personally insulting to me, because the issues related to this patch are things *I* personally tested in Issue 14 beta and reported on, so if you're saying that these issues are due to the quality of the testers of I14, then you're specifically saying that about me.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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As I said, you can argue what (I agree it goes too far) but not the if (I don't agree they can simply ignore it until they come up with a solution guaranteed to be optimal).
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
If this is the case, it means that their battle was essentially won before this patch went into place. The really effective exploits have all been ironed out of the system, putting the people who want it easier than the devs think appropriate in Architect to resort to their oldest and least effective tool. Buffbots have been a feature of some missions since AE went live.
This patch essentially tells you that it's OK to fill maps full of enemies to mow down, but you can't make a rewarding mission that uses other kinds of characters. And yes, indeed, this is indeed so wrongheaded, so perversely contrary to the devs' stated goals for AE, that it ought to be undone. The damage it does ought to outweigh any concern about the oldest exploit in the system. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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*Slow clap, building towards ovation!*
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I can't attest to who was or was not in the Shard itself during I9 beta, but I can say with certainty that having been in basically *every* closed beta your portrayal of it is basically fantasy. *I* was testing Pool A drop rates in I9 beta from almost the very beginning. In fact I started a thread with my drop rate results only to discover someone else had beaten me to it, whereupon I dumped my results into their thread and then switched to testing Pool B end of mission drops. And in between the love-fest posts which are the only ones you apparently saw or remember testers were complaining about, and making suggestions regarding things such as common IO recipes, salvage storage, ingredient-recipe inconsistencies, and the like. I also hammered the devs on things like LotG and GotA being unique, and all the tohit buffs in the invention system (which caused them to get changed to accuracy buffs). There was massive testing and critiquing going on in I9 closed beta.
There wasn't as much opportunity to be highly critical for Issue 10, but there was a lot of testing of the RWZ and its missions, and those were pretty broken at times. And of course, while people were fawning over Positron they were also complaining about things like the mole machine. Issue 11 was back to form. People complained about the way combos worked, they complained about the performance of Willpower, they complained about the stalker version of Willpower. The players also specifically got two changes to Willpower: they got its immobilization weakness removed after repeated complaints that lack of immobilization was potentially worse than lack of knockback protection because critters are designed to be able to perma-immobilize in many cases, and they got quick recovery moved from tier 7 to tier 6 which is a massive difference for scrappers and brutes: it makes the power available at level 20 - when stamina would first become available - rather than 28. The testers also beat the crap out of the Ouroboros system and complained about the temp power attenuation. There was a lot of back and forth testing and debate over Cimerora and the VEATs in Issue 12, day jobs and the merit system in Issue 13, and even the architect in Issue 14. For you to characterize the closed betas in the way you do, I have to assume you either weren't actually there, or you were there and were not an active participant, or you have such a loaded perspective that you were incapable of seeing what was going on around you. To say the testers were not rigorous or critical in *any* of the closed beta tests going all the way back to CoV beta - and I was in every single one of them - is so contrary to the facts that its insulting. And its personally insulting to me, because the issues related to this patch are things *I* personally tested in Issue 14 beta and reported on, so if you're saying that these issues are due to the quality of the testers of I14, then you're specifically saying that about me. |
The Story of a Petless MM with a dream
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
This entire post should receive some kind of award for being both hysterical and fantastic.
Well done. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There's only one reason that can cause that that I'm aware of. The devs have datamined evidence in hand that the problem is being leveraged to increasingly higher degrees, and across an increasingly wider percentage of the player population. At that point, and this is true for every MMO dev team I've ever heard of, action is non-negotiably mandated. You can still argue what but the option to argue if disappears.
You can debate the philosophy if you want, but you'd basically be arguing to repeal gravity. |
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Gravity is a myth - everything sucks.
As to the point of fixing it immediately once it becomes virulent, that would be fine if the fix were at least checked. But the buffbot allies issue has been prevalent for over a year - it's been widespread for a looooooong time already. |
As to folks saying that this solution is inelegant and the devs should've waited, see Arcanaville's comments up top.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
AE was supposed to be an alternative method of leveling, for those bored with the regular content.
CORRECT Removing XP means it's not an alternative leveling path. CORRECT This current patch, also means it's not an alternative leveling path. WRONG |
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My guess, someone in closed beta uploaded one of their arcs to the test server for PL purposes, and the the devs said enough is enough.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Quoted without the ragequit.
I would like to know what suddenly made the problem so bad that a solution had to be implemented RITE NAO, while a new issue is in closed beta, preventing it from being tested at all. |
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
A couple pages back, someone said that a fix would be to delete all the arcs and have folks republish the good ones.
I'm not buying it, personally, but it raises a question I've wondered about for a long time.
Very often, my published arcs get a LOT of tweaks and adjustments that the locally saved copies don't get. In fact, I've got really OLD revisions of various published arcs but not locally saved copies that match the latest republished revisions.
Is there any way to get a local save of a republished arc that doesn't wipe out ratings?
Sorry about the off-topic nature of this post, but it's something I've wondered a lonnnng time.
I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177
At this point I'd just as soon they shut the whole thing down. It's an abject failure in terms of drawing in customers, and a drain on resources that could be better spent in other areas.
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"Playing through" most farm missions requires finding the blinky and clicking it. The developers and GMs probably have access to tools that make finding said blinky instantaneous. So it doesn't take long at all to play through a reported arc and determine whether or not it's a farm.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Really the devs can't win on that one. Best bet is to chug through it and report all those old farms clogging up the system yourself and get the team to pay attention to them. Of course, in the end that still means they'd have to play through the 3000 or so arcs to get them taken down. So it's pretty much a wash.
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This is if they can't just look at the mission file and make a determination from that. The kinds of farms that are clogging up the search engine in droves are very very obvious.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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THAT would be hilarious.|
Originally Posted by Vega
My guess, someone in closed beta uploaded one of their arcs to the test server for PL purposes, and the the devs said enough is enough.
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EDIT: Why? Cause I would think the fact that you have a published Arc on the LIVE servers using a known abusive exploit or bug would, oh, I don't know, disqualify you from being in CLOSED BETA.
Hopefully what you're guessing isn't the case.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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When you edit a published arc there is a "Save As Local: Stop working on published arc" button at the top of the editor. It's the second icon, right next to the Republish button. Click it. It will save your arc locally without affecting the published version at all.|
Originally Posted by Tubbius
Is there any way to get a local save of a republished arc that doesn't wipe out ratings?
Sorry about the off-topic nature of this post, but it's something I've wondered a lonnnng time. |
Note that any changes you make before or after clicking this button will affect only the local copy, not the published one. If you want to keep your local copy updated, what you do is:
1) Make your changes, republish.
2) Wait for "blah blah blah has been updated" system message. Hit Search to refresh the browser window.
2) Hit edit again, Save as local. Your local version will now match the published version.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Actually he had it right the first time. This patch basically breaks NUMEROUS missions by targeting things that it wasn't supposed to target.|
Originally Posted by Hallowed
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Why?
Cause NO ONE on the playerbase got to vet it to make sure everything in it was working as intended.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
MANY MANY thanks, Eva! That's exactly what I needed to know. The "Stop working on published arc" threw me for a serious loop, making me think it was equivalent to unpublishing the arc. I've worked very, very hard to get the ratings up on my currently six arcs, and I didn't want to lose any of them. Thanks again! I'd rep you if it were possible. 
I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177
Or you could give up and stop making things worse. Havent you figured out that people will play the game the way they want to play regardless of the ANTI-everything battle cry?
Theres games out there that force people to play a certain way: Wow, Final Fantasy MMO, Champions, anything by SOE really. Sadly the Anti-everything crowd is not playing those MMOs that would cater to thier self absorbed play styles.
Dont be other MMO's, this is MMO lite. Its one step above Diablo 2 in that dept with better graphics and no crossbows or javelins that players can use.
People have been Pl'ing since the dawn of this game, and still some people are here and some people left. The people that left, theyre gone and forcing things isnt going to bring them back.
People are here because they WANT to be here. Heck, ive been here 5 years and guess what? IVE pled....oh noes im a dirty pler.....and yet im still here despite the
ANTI-everything cry of 'too easy and you leave'.
News flash: This game is easy, its also as hard as you want. Maybe you Anti-eveything crowd need to buck up, set your mission difficulty past -1 and try this game on heroic setting? you know +0 to your level.
No amount of Pl'ing will prepare you for that challenge.
No amount of playing the game on the same boring tutorial will make you a good player either.
Im sorry that you terrible ANTI-everything players need to run the tutorial everytime you make a new TOON. But if you skip it, you're no better than the dirty ple'ers you hate, because you skipped content.
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i like how you said soon thereafter(and i mean actual soon and not Soon)|
Originally Posted by Dr. Aeon
Hey everyone,
We wanted to take a moment to address issues that have come up regarding the latest patch that has been released. We certainly understand a lot of your concerns and we want to do our best to alleviate them. The change that has been implemented is a temporary change to combat a long standing exploit. This was a stopgap fix that we had to put out until we could come up with a more permanent solution. We certainly do not want to leave your arcs in a state where using them in non-exploitive ways results in little to no experience being gained. Myself, pohsyb, Television, War Witch, along with everyone else here involved in the operations of Mission Architect, are doing everything we can to arrive at a solution that we can all agree on. We currently plan to implement a solution in issue 17 or soon thereafter (and I mean actual soon and not Soon™) . We can't go into detail about what exactly is planned, but it will alleviate the current issue that many of you are having, which is finding your normal arcs are rewarding little experience. Anyone who has a normal story arc that is drastically affected by this change should not go about overhauling your work. We are going to make sure that this upcoming fix will stop exploitive behavior within Architect while also allowing you all to be as creative as you want within the system - without extremely negative consequences. Dr. Aeon |
as for the fix i can understand the need for the fix, and im also glad that it is a temp fix although im worried that wow that might be a lot of fixing if you wait until after gr (i know he said i17 but things happen.)
as for the people who are upset with this fix (Because of story not anything else) me personal i have several outlets for my stories and creativity. one of them is AE but i also have a blog where i will be posting stories.
i've also got a crymod that im working on so the AE being broke does not effect me much at lest not now anyways.
sincerly yours:
Bzald of TopTen
I like how this AE nerf didn't really affect any of the farmers. 8)
Of course, a sort of compromise (after reading responses on here) would be to have no XP/Ticket rewards until an arc is made a Dev's Choice.
Therefore the process of picking DCs would need to be sped up, as there are very good arcs out there that have amazing stories and are supported by the communities on both sides of the pond.
I say no XP/Tickets because Tickets themselves are pretty powerful and there would still be Ticket Farms, and Inf farms come to think of it.
There are over 3000 of them. They can't do it in an automated fashion. There are keywords that can be applied to real things. Someone might have an arc about catgirls, or it might say "this arc gives really low XP," or even be a joke arc about farmers.
They can't do it manually because, well, they'd have to play over 3000 arcs to make sure they aren't legit. And people are posting new farms and things constantly. I'd much rather they spent their time doing something else, even if it's an intern.
I've mentioned in another thread that I'd be willing to give arc numbers en masse to whoever is dealing with the problem, if only for the sake of speeding up the process.