Discussion: Live Patch Notes - 4/7/10
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-04-07 09:43 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Incorrect. You could easily stack Defense/Resist bubbles, making you invincible for the most part. You're only thinking of buffs such as Speed Boost or Fort etc. You're forgetting about Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion
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Originally Posted by RoboBug
did you actually use the bots? they were not that efficient. most of the time they just buffed each other. you got one reliable buff per type of helper you made after that it was luck of the draw. they wouldn't stack like buffs either. so sure you could get lots of buffs but it wasn't like you were getting 3 forts or something like that. did it make it easier? sure. but it wasn't as game breaking as it sounds. 30 buff bots sounds like a lot but you never had 30 buffs on you.
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We'll see....
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This. All of this.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Then you were doing it wrong. Toggles are always on, and offensive debuffs are always used. Give the buffbots Dispersion Bubble or Sonic Dispersion and you have pets following you that ALWAYS grant DEF/RES and ALWAYS stack. All it takes is a couple FF users and you're soft-capped. You don't need them to cast individual buffs when they have toggles that are always on. Things like Quicksand and AoE mezzes work just fine too.
The issue is this change pretty much gives people permission to have an Earth/FF pet in every farm mission they make, while making it easier and not impacting the exp any. But it simultaneously breaks legitimate missions. I would say that the exp drop happens based on the powers the pets have. If they have all offensive or self-defense powers, no reduction, no matter how many you have. But you start getting reductions the more buffs/debuffs they have. Even if you only have one. That would be the right way to do it. |
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Originally Posted by Kreeyith
Why does everyone keep talking about "instant level 50s," "1-50 in a few hours" and the like? In the jelly bean and weenie farms - the ones which instigated this patch - it took hours to get into the early twenties. And that's assuming you didn't have a bunch of AFKers and everyone had enough powers to string together an attack chain. It was still fast leveling, but nowhere near the exaggerated claims I've heard in this thread. All AE has done is made PLing available to the masses instead of restricting it to those with the cash and/or connections to doorsit their way to 50 in PI. Which is funny to me, because in the current AE farm paradigm team members get kicked if they're not playing. Also, let me say that given the... idiosyncratic behavior of ally AI in this game, there is plenty of risk in counting on them to follow you and keep you buffed. Trust me, there's plenty death to be had in a jelly bean farm, especially if you add minions to the GM spawns...
As someone who's been around since the dumpster + Burn combo, I have to say that this conflict doesn't seem any closer to ending now than it was when I started playing. Perhaps it would be better to assess why so many people want to PL in the first place? We can argue about it all we want on the forums, but at the end of the day the actions of the player base speak for themselves. For me personally, I'm another one of those players who levels many characters normally, and PLs others. Some builds are fun from level one, and others are late bloomers; it's just that I've been playing long enough that I don't get any enjoyment from slogging through a late bloomer, and if the means are available I'll gladly skip to the good part. For me this usually starts at level 22 (3-slotted Stamina + IOs), although I have on occasion PLed myself to the mid 30s for a particularly weak character. I also used to PL folks for free back before they started making AE farms where lowbies could PL themselves; it was often fun just to hang out and chat with folks, something that almost never happens on a regular team. Although to be fair sometimes people would get bored and start squabbling with each other, and then I'd get a headache and have to stop playing for a day or two.  But I have to hand it to the devs, it was pure genius to improve the mission difficulty system so we didn't need lowbies to pad spawn sizes anymore. Yet here we are arguing about farms again, leading me to conclude that clever quality of life upgrades are not going to end this back-and-forth. The only solution I can think of is to somehow enrich the leveling process itself, so that even someone who wishes they could PL straight to 50 would say No, no... if I were to suddenly hit 50, I'd miss out on X, and that would SUCK so badly! But as long as the value of X is a whole ton of warehouse missions then we can expect PLing to continue. |
i concur.
perhaps the problem (and also the answer) lies in players who
1 are lazy/don't have the time to play (a LOT) but want no one else to have more than they have and
2 players who define "farming" on very narrow terms and willfully justify THEIR OWN farming because it falls outside of their narrow definition.
no one is forced to use AE
no one is forced to use IOs
no one is forced to use AH/BM
no one is forced to pvp
these are ALL optional parts of this game. OPTIONAL means you do not have to participate in them or even acknowledge they exist.
yet, the playerbase has a LOT of knowitall busybodies dead-set on destroying everyone's playing which does not conform to THEIR acceptable way of playing.
i pity those people, for a multitude of reasons.
as for this fixing AE farming -- um, i can now set my missions to a + or - level and have them automatically generate mobs for 8 people WITH the options to have AVs or not... the normal "game" is already begging me to farm it relentlessly -- take the blinders off and see the poop you're traipsing thru.
Political correctness is a stench in the nose of God. Yes, your God(s) also.
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They should not. They should be banned from publishing missions, like Positron said would happen.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
There's no learning experience there, there's usually no story there, there's no challenge; no risk. Why should anyone that plays an arc like that expect to be rewarded (for pretty much... door sitting). And why should the author expect to get accolades and rewards for providing a weak, hollow and lackluster experience? IMO, of course.
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| Players that chose to do this screwed everyone over; not the devs... you had to know the nerfbat was coming... again... again... yet you played the odds (again); betting with everyone's potential gaming experience and losing... |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Then you were doing it wrong. Toggles are always on, and offensive debuffs are always used. Give the buffbots Dispersion Bubble or Sonic Dispersion and you have pets following you that ALWAYS grant DEF/RES and ALWAYS stack. All it takes is a couple FF users and you're soft-capped. You don't need them to cast individual buffs when they have toggles that are always on. Things like Quicksand and AoE mezzes work just fine too.
The issue is this change pretty much gives people permission to have an Earth/FF pet in every farm mission they make, while making it easier and not impacting the exp any. But it simultaneously breaks legitimate missions. I would say that the exp drop happens based on the powers the pets have. If they have all offensive or self-defense powers, no reduction, no matter how many you have. But you start getting reductions the more buffs/debuffs they have. Even if you only have one. That would be the right way to do it. |
i farm on softcapped toons anyway...
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Nope, these aren't them. If anything trying to get to 50 on maps with the types of buffing allies that were available would teach you how to play your character very very well.
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Originally Posted by Wondering_Fury
They are fixing exploits, exploits which are resulting in the very 50's that some of you are contradictorily complaining about.
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I don't think the Devs care about your 'fun'. That's not what it boils down to when you look at it from their perspective.|
Originally Posted by RoboBug
again, you didn't get 20 stacked buffs. at least, i didn't maybe i was doing it wrong. the players did nothing but use the tools given to them to make the game as enjoyable for them as possible. the devs decided that they were having fun the wrong way, not the players.
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For many players (not most or all); the game ends at the first 50 or the next few 50s thereafter... and so does their subscription. Players blazing to get nowhere have their fast fun and then many say meh and take their money with them.
I'm sure there are those players that stick around after their umpteenth 50 but it's probably not the majority of the playerbase and hence; not the majority of the money.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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those didn't even cross my mind... i should have been using those and farming with my fire/elec blaster all this time!!!
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Originally Posted by Flameshot
Incorrect. You could easily stack Defense/Resist bubbles, making you invincible for the most part. You're only thinking of buffs such as Speed Boost or Fort etc. You're forgetting about Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion
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somehow, even softcapped to def and res, I'm sure you would find a way to die on that blaster
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Originally Posted by RoboBug
those didn't even cross my mind... i should have been using those and farming with my fire/elec blaster all this time!!!
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/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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But why now after 6 years? I guess it could have been an oversight, something they just forgot to do years ago. But it just seems odd to do it now unless they have something cooking.
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
Of course they trademarked CoH 2 already. Why would they wait for some troll to snatch it and then try to make a profit by selling it to them when they finally do decide to use it? Companies trademark a lot of stuff that they may never use in the near future, just in case.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I don't think the Devs care about your 'fun'. That's not what it boils down to when you look at it from their perspective.
For many players (not most or all); the game ends at the first 50 or the next few 50s thereafter... and so does their subscription. Players blazing to get nowhere have their fast fun and then many say meh and take their money with them. I'm sure there are those players that stick around after their umpteenth 50 but it's probably not the majority of the playerbase and hence; not the majority of the money. |
you are right that they don't care about my fun. pvp "fixes" prove that.
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Do you farm on toons who are soft capped, RES capped, immune to slows, and ALL status effects, and fight enemies who are -ToHit floored, -DEF floored, -RES floored, -recharge floored, held, confused, and stunned? Because you could if you were using the right pets.
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Originally Posted by RoboBug
i farm on softcapped toons anyway...
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Then you were doing it wrong. Toggles are always on, and offensive debuffs are always used. Give the buffbots Dispersion Bubble or Sonic Dispersion and you have pets following you that ALWAYS grant DEF/RES and ALWAYS stack. All it takes is a couple FF users and you're soft-capped. You don't need them to cast individual buffs when they have toggles that are always on. Things like Quicksand and AoE mezzes work just fine too.
The issue is this change pretty much gives people permission to have an Earth/FF pet in every farm mission they make, while making it easier and not impacting the exp any. But it simultaneously breaks legitimate missions. I would say that the exp drop happens based on the powers the pets have. If they have all offensive or self-defense powers, no reduction, no matter how many you have. But you start getting reductions the more buffs/debuffs they have. Even if you only have one. That would be the right way to do it. |
Saying it again. This really did nothing to speed up farming. What it did was allow people that normally wouldn't get a bite at the apple have one. If you really really wanted to go insane, you could build a toon for all recharge no defense and then try it with one of these maps, but really its much easier to just bring a kin and use an empowerment buff.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Do you farm on toons who are soft capped, RES capped, immune to slows, and ALL status effects, and fight enemies who are -ToHit floored, -DEF floored, -RES floored, -recharge floored, held, confused, and stunned? Because you could if you were using the right pets.
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i used pets that were all either earth or ill and emp, therm, pain, and kin. it was fun while it lasted. i guess i wasn't maximizing my farming potential all this time.
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I ran the Punchdrunk farm many, many times using nothing but a tray full of purples to keep my Fire Brute softcapped on defense the whole time, making me "practically unkillable" for the entire mission. Is this an exploit? Should the devs now nerf lucks so this clearly aberrant behavior which allowed me to perform feats so miraculous that they simply must not be allowed to exist be snuffed from existence?|
Originally Posted by Redoubtable
I think your definition of "a little bit" is somewhat off. Putting enough buffbots in a mission makes any character practically unkillable, which is a pretty big exploit when there's no corresponding reduction in XP gain.
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Hmmm?
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An army of pets applying -300% RES to enemies while keeping them from doing any harm to you whatsoever, regardless of your AT, level, or power combination doesn't speed up farming?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Saying it again. This really did nothing to speed up farming.
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And making farming far more accessible is just as bad as making farming faster anyway.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm confused. If the content of your story is SO important, and removing a few ally spawns would completely break the narrative... isn't the mission XP a secondary concern anyway?
Arc #41077 - The Men of State
Arc #48845 - Operation: Dirty Snowball
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This is the undeniable truth.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
If you think a farmer can't come up with a character that can't run the same maps without the bots, you are sadly mistaken.
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"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Originally Posted by Dispari
An army of pets applying -300% RES to enemies while keeping them from doing any harm to you whatsoever, regardless of your AT, level, or power combination doesn't speed up farming?
And making farming far more accessible is just as bad as making farming faster anyway. |
The ones that were applying debuffs to enemies were a royal pain to have around. They would go around randomly aggroing spawns, never follow you properly and in general just make a nuisance of themselves. The bubblers were the best of the lot and there was always the problem of people putting so many of them on a map the bubbles would merge go opaque and you couldn't even see what you were doing.
The commentary on farming, illustrates a process that is slowly strangling the game. The institutionalization of intolerance. Farming isn't a playstyle that appeals to everyone but it is perfectly valid for those that do. You can make the argument, that people feel compelled to farm, but the paradox of this is that because of the way the market works, the more people that farm, the less compulsion to do so
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No. There's a limit to the number of insps in your tray; you run out... tough. To get another tray full, you exit and pay for more.|
Originally Posted by Captain Fabulous
I ran the Punchdrunk farm many, many times using nothing but a tray full of purples to keep my Fire Brute softcapped on defense the whole time, making me "practically unkillable" for the entire mission. Is this an exploit? Should the devs now nerf lucks so this clearly aberrant behavior which allowed me to perform feats so miraculous that they simply must not be allowed to exist be snuffed from existence?
Hmmm? |
The bots don't run out; they don't have to leave the mission to get more. They're a free, permanent group of insp trays that follow you around.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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what if your mission involves a PPD raid on say... a family warehouse? and you show up in the middle of a huge warehouse room with a LOT of PPD fighting a LOT of family members?|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
So you expect to be able to get full XP when you are at a lower risk by having multiple buff bots follow you around? Even if you only have 3 allies you are still at lower risk and should get lower XP due to that.
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you're already getting XP stolen by the PPD attacks. right?
this type of mission is just as affected.
but, i can set my normal world missions to spawn 8-man-sized mobs, for my farming pleasure, and that's fine and dandy.
the devs are sending two completely contradictory messages about farming (again).
Political correctness is a stench in the nose of God. Yes, your God(s) also.
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Or they're just the average joe player who wants some fast XP (ever notice how busy PI and Grandville were before I14?). I hardly think people farming the MA are a "small but visible" subgroup of players. Their "only punish the exploiters" plan kind of backfired on the last time they tried that - at least that's what you'd see if all the threads about "hey my level pacted character got deleted, wtf!?" threads hadn't been deleted as fast as they were being created. When all you see in broadcast in some zones is "looking for AE farm" or "AE farm forming PST," you really have to wonder what the people who think that's a "minority" are smoking.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Players that chose to do this do not care about "lolRPers," or for that matter anyone else. The devs should realize by now that a small but visible sub-section of the playerbase will use any loophole, shortcut, or flat-out exploit to earn the maximum amount of rewards possible in the shortest amount of time, and punish those players. The exploit, shortcut or loophole should be closed with the minimum amount of impact to those who don't use it, like they do with any exploit that doesn't involve AE.
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Originally Posted by Monkey_King
isn't the mission XP a secondary concern anyway?
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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With this system in place, there should be no need to find loopholes and exploits. People are just doing it because they love the exercise of rebellion. No other justification for it really.|
Originally Posted by Ezoran
as for this fixing AE farming -- um, i can now set my missions to a + or - level and have them automatically generate mobs for 8 people WITH the options to have AVs or not... the normal "game" is already begging me to farm it relentlessly -- take the blinders off and see the poop you're traipsing thru.
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This coupled with the fact, as someone pointed out, that toons can be made/built to run farms (or any other content) without the need for crutches emphasizes this.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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The thing is the mission is done before the lucks run out. And at 50 inf a pop a whole tray is a pittance. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
No. There's a limit to the number of insps in your tray; you run out... tough. To get another tray full, you exit and pay for more.
The bots don't run out; they don't have to leave the mission to get more. They're a free, permanent group of insp trays that follow you around. |
And we are talking about farms. Meaning you don't just do them once. So every new run means gathering the bots all over again.
It's absolutely no different. Except the bots now give little to no XP while using Lucks gets you full XP.
I think it's time to nerf Lucks! This exploit needs to be closed!!!
There's no learning experience there, there's usually no story there, there's no challenge; no risk. Why should anyone that plays an arc like that expect to be rewarded (for pretty much... door sitting). And why should the author expect to get accolades and rewards for providing a weak, hollow and lackluster experience? IMO, of course.
Players that chose to do this screwed everyone over; not the devs... you had to know the nerfbat was coming... again... again... yet you played the odds (again); betting with everyone's potential gaming experience and losing...
again, you didn't get 20 stacked buffs. at least, i didn't maybe i was doing it wrong. the players did nothing but use the tools given to them to make the game as enjoyable for them as possible. the devs decided that they were having fun the wrong way, not the players.