Issue 19: Incarnates
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-27 09:03 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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That may change my mind a bit, I'll confess. To think that other factors beyond XP would give the levels.|
Originally Posted by Radmind
I wonder if the Incarnate lvls will be more tied into completion badges than XP itself. Watching the presentation the Devs mentioned more Zone events tied into the Incarnate system. So say complete X number of arcs, X number of TFs/SFs and X number of Zone events to get your first incarnate level.
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However, from observing the community, I can't see that too horribly likely to happen. People clamor about Taskforces as it is, hating the fact that they can't activate it alone, listening to the people who solo AVs for sport, etc etc.
I cannot imagine the community hearing that 10 'levels' of content will be restricted to things requiring a team/group to complete. It just doesn't sit well in consistency, especially on lower-population servers like Guardian, where I can imagine people demanding that the requirements be pushed back because of the lack of availability of a team.
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Maybe they will treat it somewhat like Patron Power Pools? But with a twist? *scratches beard* I can't wait actually...and here I was thinking that GR was going to be hard to meet up to/Top...
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Originally Posted by Sigium
That may change my mind a bit, I'll confess. To think that other factors beyond XP would give the levels.
However, from observing the community, I can't see that too horribly likely to happen. People clamor about Taskforces as it is, hating the fact that they can't activate it alone, listening to the people who solo AVs for sport, etc etc. I cannot imagine the community hearing that 10 'levels' of content will be restricted to things requiring a team/group to complete. It just doesn't sit well in consistency, especially on lower-population servers like Guardian, where I can imagine people demanding that the requirements be pushed back because of the lack of availability of a team. |
Hmm... Incarnates...
I'm reminded of this post by Mothers Love last year for a TF idea to unlock Incarnates for level 50 chars... Could be interesting. 
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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There is a pretty big difference there, really. There are two problems with raising the level cap. The first is that new content has to be written to fill in those new levels... but given that iLevels will be gotten through the new endgame content (ie all new content written just for it), that ones already taken care of.|
Originally Posted by Sigium
But I think that it's fair to call this exactly what it is; progress beyond 50 that will make content 50 and below easier than it currently is for those advanced levels. You can call that however you'd like: Incarnate Level X, Level 60, whatever. The final idea is that it will be raising the 'Level Cap' in some form. Just because your enhancements still fit and your contacts still call you doesn't change this.
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The other problem is that a level cap increase tends to render all the current "uber loot" worthless in favor of the new shiny "uber-er loot". To compare, another game might have you do endless raids and require tireless effort to get all the best of the best equipment... and then when the new expansion comes out, that gear suddenly becomes junk in comparison to the new best equipment. So you can never really "win".
In contrast, it seems very much like the new Incarnate Levels WON'T replace the current "uber loot" we have. If anything, it will work along side it and just create that much more of a benefit. So rather than making all your prior work meaningless, it adds on to it.
And that's the basic difference between raising the level cap and adding on an alternate level system. When you raise, you make the current top-end stuff weaker by comparison. With this system, it could still retain some of it's value.
Yes, it is just a matter of semantics in the end. But it's an important distinction to make.
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I have some questions as to how Villains would handle Patron Power Pools on Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Negate
Maybe they will treat it somewhat like Patron Power Pools? But with a twist? *scratches beard* I can't wait actually...and here I was thinking that GR was going to be hard to meet up to/Top...
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Of course, there's the chance that the two will become more uniform:
Levels 1 - 38:
Regular Powers/Pools
Level 41-49:
Ancillary Power Pools
Level 51(52?)* - 60*:
Incarnate/Patron Power Pools
Even then, it doesn't seem quite as majestic. If there's going to be some big opening in the sky for this future content, it would seem that there would need to be more importance than just a few new shinies to fill in the utility gaps.
* Levels 51 - 60 are still speculative at this point, as you can imagine.
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IO's also let people make advancements beyond level 50, and made content below level 50 easier. As do some accolades to a certain degree. Not that I disagree with you, I just wanted to point that out before someone else jumped on it.|
Originally Posted by Sigium
But I think that it's fair to call this exactly what it is; progress beyond 50 that will make content 50 and below easier than it currently is for those advanced levels. You can call that however you'd like: Incarnate Level X, Level 60, whatever. The final idea is that it will be raising the 'Level Cap' in some form. Just because your enhancements still fit and your contacts still call you doesn't change this.
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I think the most indicative thing is that they do refer to these as levels, inferring that there will be some leveling system rather than a single objective that delivers an Incarnate level.
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Thank you and I assure you, I'm well aware of this. It's possible to become far superior thanks to Set Bonuses, especially from the Superior recipes. My main point, however, is that just because those enhancements will benefit you past 50 doesn't mean that those levels are '50+1'. |
Originally Posted by ketch
IO's also let people make advancements beyond level 50, and made content below level 50 easier. As do some accolades to a certain degree. Not that I disagree with you, I just wanted to point that out before someone else jumped on it.
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I think if the developers were to simply announce Levels 51-60, there would be a panic, and it's pretty sad to think of. I would think the remedy would be to say that there would be additional zones for additional content, enhancements would retain their bonuses as 50+ and contacts would still have missions for them. Then again, I've been wrong before.
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Originally Posted by ketch
I think the most indicative thing is that they do refer to these as levels, inferring that there will be some leveling system rather than a single objective that delivers an Incarnate level.
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Let's face it; this game is all about the freedom of letting people level how they want. People who level through AE might feel cheated for having to go outside! People who hate to team (in an MMO, no less) might hate being required to team to progress.
Once again, I'm all for adverse requirements. I'd like to get people out of their comfort zones via slegehammer.
Staff powerset coming out? Aww hell yeah! I wonder if it will be strictly blunt staff, or if it will be general polearm, which would allow for more custom weapon choices? I'm also exited about the Incarnate system, and Kinetic Melee. Although from the looks of it, I would call it Telekinetic melee instead- it looks like the guy is using telekinesis to smack his foes around, which is pretty cool.
I've already pre-purchased GR, so I can't wait to play with all the new goodies!
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Wait, what? Where did you hear this? Is there some thread I'm missing somewhere? Because this is a set I've been dying for for ages.
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Originally Posted by Amanita
Staff powerset coming out? Aww hell yeah! I wonder if it will be strictly blunt staff, or polearm, which would allow for more custom weapon choices?
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It was mentioned during the 'live Q&A report' on a website someone linked to, it's on the 'whiteboard' and probably in the next one or two years.
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I don't think you should look at the Incarnate levels as actual levels like the 1-50 ones.
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Originally Posted by Sigium
I have some questions as to how Villains would handle Patron Power Pools on Heroes.
Of course, there's the chance that the two will become more uniform: Levels 1 - 38: Regular Powers/Pools Level 41-49: Ancillary Power Pools Level 51(52?)* - 60*: Incarnate/Patron Power Pools Even then, it doesn't seem quite as majestic. If there's going to be some big opening in the sky for this future content, it would seem that there would need to be more importance than just a few new shinies to fill in the utility gaps. * Levels 51 - 60 are still speculative at this point, as you can imagine. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Here you go good sir.|
Originally Posted by Westley
Wait, what? Where did you hear this? Is there some thread I'm missing somewhere? Because this is a set I've been dying for for ages.
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(there are other new powersets "on the whiteboard" that will make it into future expansions, including staff use )
You can find that discussed at 12:22 on this site.
http://www.newsarama.com/games/city-...ax-100327.html
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But someone in Broadcast the other night said the game was dying, and would be shut down soon - who should I believe?
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
It was mentioned during the 'live Q&A report' on a website someone linked to, it's on the 'whiteboard' and probably in the next one or two years.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Thank you Neg!
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I wouldn't trust their sources Cox just won a shiny new award from Beckett MMORPG AND they ironically beat out CO. Also if it's dying why would they push for i19? I doubt it would die anytime soon. At least for another 1.5 years.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But someone in Broadcast the other night said the game was dying, and would be shut down soon - who should I believe?
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NP Wes!
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My comment was some way from being serious |
Originally Posted by Negate
I wouldn't trust their sources Cox just won a shiny new award from Beckett MMORPG AND they ironically beat out CO. Also if it's dying why would they push for i19? I doubt it would die anytime soon. At least for another 1.5 years.
NP Wes! |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I know, I know. I was trying to keep all the DOOM Sayers at bay before they even showed up :P.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
My comment was some way from being serious
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Plus I admit I am pretty loyal to this game...I haven't cheated...YET. >_>
I just have to say, delivering just one Incarnate level in GR and saving the other 9 for i19 is a great move. The devs will be able to see how the Incarnate levels interact with everything else and what combinations are ridiculously overpowered with only one level out there in the live environment.
If they were to release all 10 levels at once, and then realize they have to be nerfed hard, the cries of doom would be deafening. Releasing just one level, seeing where it's too good, and then delivering the nerfs with another 9 levels would soften the blow a lot.
The 1st incarnate level stuff wouldn't be the most "valuable" so nobody should feel cheated that they have to replace it because it sucks after a nerf -- because they're announcing WAY in advance that there's going to be a lot more coming down the pipeline, so don't get attached to what you get in the first Incarnate level.
It's a great way to treat i18 as an extended, live beta of the foundation of the Incarnate system -- after which i19 will be the polished version, with the good (9 new levels) and the bad (nerfs) balancing each other out.
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How long before the first "the devs are making us pay to test the game" post? |
Originally Posted by Leandro
I just have to say, delivering just one Incarnate level in GR and saving the other 9 for i19 is a great move. The devs will be able to see how the Incarnate levels interact with everything else and what combinations are ridiculously overpowered with only one level out there in the live environment.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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What, you mean it hasn't been done for this already?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
How long before the first "the devs are making us pay to test the game" post?
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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I think it's just not been noticed yet |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
What, you mean it hasn't been done for this already?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Anyway, back on topic, I think Incarnate levels sound a lot like a mechanic I first saw in Dark Age of Camelot (not saying they came up with it, it's just where I saw it first). When they hit level cap, they have ten levels of...stuff (never looked that closely) in which they earn more powers and abilities, but their base stats stay the same. I just wish I could remember what they called it.
Wiki to the rescue it seems. They call them "Master Levels". Obvious, really.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Somehting else I'm wondering about is how will the curent content remain a challenge for Incarnates? Like won't something like the STF need some sort of extra level of difficulty, otherwise it'd be come just too easy?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I seem to remember that Positron also said in the same post that people that switched sides would be able to get the rewards but that it would take longer if you did. Nothing about being completely locked out of the rewards.
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Originally Posted by HellsPixie
I said that the Devs have mentioned that there will be a reward for staying true.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I'm all-for this change! I really am! I'd be happy with any change that brought us new, or polished content that would improve our overall gaming quality. Whether it be a zone revamp, graphical update, or more levels.
But I think that it's fair to call this exactly what it is; progress beyond 50 that will make content 50 and below easier than it currently is for those advanced levels. You can call that however you'd like: Incarnate Level X, Level 60, whatever. The final idea is that it will be raising the 'Level Cap' in some form. Just because your enhancements still fit and your contacts still call you doesn't change this.