I would have asked nicely twice. Demanded once. Then kicked.
Then again, that's how I always handle problematic teammates.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
I was playing on virtue when all this went down saw it in the global quiete entertaining.
I woulda kicked, serioulsy tanks need ID or something similar for GW her hold is just to crazy if it hits and that's just asking for a team wipe if the tank falls. I just don't like whiny people that can't you know listen to some good advice when it's given to them. Big heads and all that stuff.
My take on it:
I wouldn't have kicked her. The only reason I've ever kicked people before is because they did something to actively keep the team from succeeding at whatever it was attempting to do. If she had, for example, deliberately drawn multiple AV aggro to the group, I would have done it. People getting mad and sending me nasty messages in tells, I really don't care so much about. I would have added a note so that I wouldn't team with her again, but that's about it.
Also, she had participated in all of the missions up until the very last one, and really, had helped out through the hardest part of that one, too. Unless she got really nasty to the point where it was causing so much distraction to the team that they couldn't finish the mission, I would have kept her on the team just because whether the team liked her methods or not, she did put in the time and effort.
And she does have a point. I don't like it when people tell me how to play my characters, either. If I think there's a better way, I might suggest it as you did, but if they say no, I usually just drop it. I've found that most people are pretty stubborn, most teams do fine in spite of not being as optimal as they could be, and really, sometimes people who are trying to be helpful to me are just plain wrong. Even if she was "doing it wrong," by kicking her, you made sure that what she was adding was gone.
Like I said, I probably would have been pissed off, too. I would have added a note and one-starred her to make sure I didn't team up with her again. But in the end, I would have just said something like, "Everyone calm down, and let's just get through this," and grin and bear it out.
Edit: For what it's worth, when I see people broadcasting slanderous comments about someone else in the public channels, I almost always assume that they're just being petty and I give what they say no weight at all, sometimes even "negative" weight, in that it usually reflects a lot worse on the complainer than the complainee. If I had witnessed all of this, your reputation really would have been better off had you just not said anything in response to her broadcasts.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
Quote:
Agreed. I don't like kicking people. I had only done it once before.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
My take on it:
I wouldn't have kicked her. The only reason I've ever kicked people before is because they did something to actively keep the team from succeeding at whatever it was attempting to do. If she had, for example, deliberately drawn multiple AV aggro to the group, I would have done it. People getting mad and sending me nasty messages in tells, I really don't care so much about. I would have added a note so that I wouldn't team with her again, but that's about it. Also, she had participated in all of the missions up until the very last one, and really, had helped out through the hardest part of that one, too. Unless she got really nasty to the point where it was causing so much distraction to the team that they couldn't finish the mission, I would have kept her on the team just because whether the team liked her methods or not, she did put in the time and effort. And she does have a point. I don't like it when people tell me how to play my characters, either. If I think there's a better way, I might suggest it as you did, but if they say no, I usually just drop it. I've found that most people are pretty stubborn, most teams do fine in spite of not being as optimal as they could be, and really, sometimes people who are trying to be helpful to me are just plain wrong. Even if she was "doing it wrong," by kicking her, you made sure that what she was adding was gone. Like I said, I probably would have been pissed off, too. I would have added a note and one-starred her to make sure I didn't team up with her again. But in the end, I would have just said something like, "Everyone calm down, and let's just get through this," and grin and bear it out. Edit: For what it's worth, when I see people broadcasting slanderous comments about someone else in the public channels, I almost always assume that they're just being petty and I give what they say no weight at all, sometimes even "negative" weight, in that it usually reflects a lot worse on the complainer than the complainee. If I had witnessed all of this, your reputation really would have been better off had you just not said anything in response to her broadcasts. |
But when she said that..."I can quit" I just said enough, hit kick and replied "Saved us both the problem"
I mean, if I had been yelling or something. Id understand the attitude. But I was being nice.
I even teamed with her on a different alt earlier that day, on my blaster, for a Positron TF. When she was on her DB/ blaster.
Had no problems then, was expecting no problems this time. But that comment...*sigh*
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
For what it's worth, I'd consider firing useless debuffs and AoEs on an AV and ignoring needed team buffs to be Actively keeping the team from succeeding.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
My take on it:
The only reason I've ever kicked people before is because they did something to actively keep the team from succeeding at whatever it was attempting to do. |
Blind during the AV fight? Useless.
Slow Movement? Useless if they fire immobs.
Holds? Unless all Controllers agree to spam Holds in order to over come Triangles Up, all it is is a bit more damage, and 1-3 missed attacks when the AV goes Held for Triangles Down, and even then a single controller can Hold a Triangles Down AV.
That's not even getting into the fact that if the Tank is running Yellow-Red, and the team's blue bars are empty because said player isn't using abilities that are sitting right there on their bar and would more than likely shorten the fight considerably, then that's antithetical to good team play.
The Fire/Kin didn't need to pull other mobs or AVs. She was weakening her own team and strengthening the AVs leverage to the point that it must have been like fighting 2 AVs anyway.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
The fire/kin didnt pull more mobs.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
For what it's worth, I'd consider firing useless debuffs and AoEs on an AV and ignoring needed team buffs to be Actively keeping the team from succeeding.
Blind during the AV fight? Useless. Slow Movement? Useless if they fire immobs. Holds? Unless all Controllers agree to spam Holds in order to over come Triangles Up, all it is is a bit more damage, and 1-3 missed attacks when the AV goes Held for Triangles Down, and even then a single controller can Hold a Triangles Down AV. That's not even getting into the fact that if the Tank is running Yellow-Red, and the team's blue bars are empty because said player isn't using abilities that are sitting right there on their bar and would more than likely shorten the fight considerably, then that's antithetical to good team play. The Fire/Kin didn't need to pull other mobs or AVs. She was weakening her own team and strengthening the AVs leverage to the point that it must have been like fighting 2 AVs anyway. |
The blaster that had snipe got unlucky and pulled all four. After getting kicked, the FIre/Kin then said the blaster was the suckie, because he had pulled all 4.
Which in my experience onthe STF when pulling the AVs, everyone gets unlucky sometimes.
With 2 AVs showing up more often than not.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Personally, I think a kin that doesn't SB is a waste of a toon.
When people are paying over 100 Million influence for a LotG global recharge, which gives a measly +7.5% recharge, and speed boost gives a +50% recharge, plus end recovery plus run speed, it is a no brainer that keeping the team speed boosted is key to making sure everything goes smoothly and quickly.
Whenever I see a teammate with no end, and kin is on the team, I start thinking the kinetic has not done their job.
Granted, I started with a kinetic defender and have a fire/kin as well, but if you're not ready to be a bit obsessive about the SB, then you're not ready to be a kin 
As far as kicking goes, if someone wants to pull attitude with me, I'll shovel it right back at them, especially if I was trying to be diplomatic. Every team needs a bit of discipline in order to get things done, especially the more trying tasks. If you don't want to follow the leader's orders during the tough periods, then leave and make your own team. Simple as that.
I don't tend to kick people, but whenever I do, it's always about attitude above all else. Incompetence I can handle, even malice to some point if the person can be reasoned with. But when it devolves into "Sod off, you're not the boss of me!" then yeah. Kick and forget about it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
You did the right thing. There are a lot of uncooperative people in this game who answer simple requests for help with attitude. Rather than being a doormat and sacrificing your fun for their benefit, you imposed consequences for her bad behavior. Good job.
I might have kicked the player after the "veiled" threat that they would up and quit if you didn't knock it off. IMO, you, as the leader, didn't do anything wrong... and in fact were being nicer than a lot of leaders I have run with.
On the other hand, I think it is kinda ridiculous that so many people sport ummmm... get excited about, SB. It is perhaps the only buff that people beg for. Yes, I know it is a good buff... but I just think any kind of buff-begging is in poor taste. As TonyV said, unless the player is actively doing things counterproductive to the team, I wouldn't legitimize the complaints by telling them how to play. And I must point out here, contrary to Lemur, that NOT doing something is not the same thing as doing something on purpose to mess with the team.
Long and short of it? I would have probably told the teammates to settle down and not be so fixated on that one buff before I would have told the Kin what to do. But, given the position you found yourself in at the end, I too would have kicked them.
Quote:
That's just it. No one fixated on the buff. It was asked for twice (never given) and they didnt ask again.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I might have kicked the player after the "veiled" threat that they would up and quit if you didn't knock it off. IMO, you, as the leader, didn't do anything wrong... and in fact were being nicer than a lot of leaders I have run with.
On the other hand, I think it is kinda ridiculous that so many people sport ummmm... get excited about, SB. It is perhaps the only buff that people beg for. Yes, I know it is a good buff... but I just think any kind of buff-begging is in poor taste. As TonyV said, unless the player is actively doing things counterproductive to the team, I wouldn't legitimize the complaints by telling them how to play. And I must point out here, contrary to Lemur, that NOT doing something is not the same thing as doing something on purpose to mess with the team. Long and short of it? I would have probably told the teammates to settle down and not be so fixated on that one buff before I would have told the Kin what to do. But, given the position you found yourself in at the end, I too would have kicked them. |
I was sent one tell asking why the KIN wasn't SBing. Which I replied to them not to worry about it.
The only time I started asking the KIN to SB was when Scirrico had everyone's END drained, from the Mu Lightning attack of his. And that was in tells, not team chat. And done politely "Everyone is being drained of end, we need you SB everyone"
She was also not using Transfusion much at all, when asked. :/ You may have a power on auto, but if you're queing up other powers in it's palce, it's not going to go off.
Then the KIN didnt want to cast ID on the tanker to stop her from being held.
I had run with the person ealier on a Positron TF (she had her blaster, I was using my same blaster as I used on the STF), with no problems. Got it done in 2:22, everyone was happy. Praises all around.
Thinking back, I should of known it would of ended this way with the KIN. When I asked if she had FS, she asked me "What's FS?" So I simply replied "Falcrum Shift" which she replied, "Oh of course, I spam it all the time."
And her comment earleir during the STF to me in a tell "Fire/ trollers who farm never know when to use the imps right" after complaining about the Fire/Rad having her imps out. When the Fire/Rad is a SG member of mine, who I know doesn't farm with that Fire/Rad...and in fact, is quite terrible at it.
But yeah, the "or I can quit" comment just set me off. Getting tell after tell to kick her to begin with then that, when I was trying to get everyone through it. :/
And I'm patient. I finished a 9 hour (straight) ITF, 2 tankers (one of them SKed up) 2 trollers (mine was SKed up)...if that doesn't say patient, I don't know what does.
It can't be done? Give me enough time, I'll figure out how our team can accomplish what "can't be done"
Well, 95% of the time anyways. >.>Or maybe I was expecting to much. I know there are Troller players out there who think "I'm not a buffer/debuffer...I'm a controller" but playing my Trollers to 50, I know there's a time for controls and a time for relying on your secondary a little bit more.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
If people are deliberately chosing (not unable to) not to do something and the team is very obviously failing because of it, then asking (not ordering) them to help out is perfectly acceptable. Trying to deflect the blame on to the other players doesn't work because one of the purposes of a team or task force is to tackle content that none of the players in it can accomplish solo. Players who respond to any request made of them with a knee-jerk reaction of "don't you tell me how to play!" are uncooperative and selfish.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
On the other hand, I think it is kinda ridiculous that so many people sport ummmm... get excited about, SB. It is perhaps the only buff that people beg for. Yes, I know it is a good buff... but I just think any kind of buff-begging is in poor taste. As TonyV said, unless the player is actively doing things counterproductive to the team, I wouldn't legitimize the complaints by telling them how to play. And I must point out here, contrary to Lemur, that NOT doing something is not the same thing as doing something on purpose to mess with the team.
|
This isn't the same thing as begging for SB everywhere because you think you need it, because the icon in your buff bar is blinking or because you look down on minmaxers and have a terribly designed build as a result. This isn't about castigating a player because they didn't take X power or use it in exactly Y way. There is a specific problem and a specific player on the team has the ability to solve it and is refusing to use it. This is not 'telling other people how to play'.
Besides abusive behaviour, this is my main criterion for deciding who are bad teammates; when there's a particular action (be it a power or a tactic) available to them that will improve the team's performance, and they are deliberately choosing not to use it. A newbie (or veteran, if it comes to that) making mistakes, no worries. If the team's currently doing fine then sure, by all means carry on doing whatever you like. Particularly bad power choices, eh I'll sigh to myself, but to each their own. But if the team is really struggling and you could do something to change that - and someone has politely explained what it is and why it would help - then bloody well do it. Otherwise we may as well just pack up and go home.
Now I'd not normally kick over it (unless I had the option of replacing them with a more team-minded player), but I'd not feel guilt or sympathy towards them if it came to that, especially if the scenario were taking place at the end of a TF and this was all that stood between a failed run and a victorious one.
Sounds like you got the worst of two worlds in one player, BrandX - one who wasn't too team-conscious, and who was burnt out on SB requests. The SB spam doesn't have to come from your team, but if you get a few teams that are all "SB plz" and "SB NOW," it's hard not to set your teeth on edge with any request for any power, no matter how reasonable it is. By the way:
Quote:
Don't do that. | So I explained what SB did. |
I'll bet she's heard that lecture before. I suspect most Kins hear it, even the ones who spam SB...Also sounds like she didn't know the STF very well, and was trying to use Kin tactics that work for most content. IME, a well-placed FS ends most non-AV fights before SB becomes relevant, and for AVs with a high regeneration, taking the time to SB mid-battle can actually extend the duration of a fight. Maybe she was stuck in that mode and wasn't adapting too well to the STF. I can't fault her much for that, as it can be tough to adapt on the fly - it requires a fair amount of tactical awareness.
Anyway, just playing devil's advocate. I probably wouldn't have kicked her, but only because I couldn't replace her (as Biowraith pointed out). I might have called her bluff, though, and said "ID will help. If you're not gonna help, go ahead and quit."
If you don't wanna use Speedboost, why even pick the power? Actually, have you checked whether the person has SB? Judging by the person's behaviour, I'll just assume yes and go on.
I'm very much with BrandX on this. For starters, as I mentioned, if you pick a power only to adamantly refuse using it, well, that's not even selfish because it borders on self-destructive, as the OP's anecdote showed.
Then there's also the fact that when you're on a team, you're expected to be a team-player. If someone asks you to do something, it generally makes sense to actually do that. Asking a Blaster to take aggro makes no sense, but who asks that? Asking a Kin to apply Speed Boosts when everyone's endurance is gone? That is not telling you how to play your toon, that is called having Common Sense [insert Deadpool comic here]
And lastly, anyone who threatens to leave after being told to HELP THE TEAM deserves to be kicked. In fact, anyone who threatens to leave for any reason deserves to be kicked. We're superheroes, we don't negotiate with terrorists.
Quote:
I'm stealing this line.
|
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
We're superheroes, we don't negotiate with terrorists.
|
As some one who has five kins, I would say that anyone who refuses to play it to its fullest potential doesn't deserve a team.
And that doesn't even mean keep everyone speed boosted.
EDIT: Hi Laev!
My rule is this with speed boost:
If you are a Defender, you must always keep track of that flashing Icon to keep it on all 7 toons.
If you are a Corruptor, be sure to check now and again for endurance bars. Stop to give speed boost if players hit about half.
If you are a Controller, hit anyone who is dead blank on endurance with speed boost.
This assumes you don't already plan on a 20-second window for reapplying SB in between autofiring Transfusion (which I did when the crew I rolled with ran STF/LRSF).
If you play a kinetic and have speed boost and choose to not use it when players need it, you don't care for team play or don't know how to play your toon.
As for kicking, if I think kicking a player will hurt our chances versus Recluse, I'll stomach their bad play and behavior. I wouldn't have kicked until the other 6 openly demanded it or the player in question actively tried to spike the TF.
I don't have an issue with you kicking though. The player threatened to leave. If you don't have the star and do that your chances of staying on that TF aren't good.
Thank you, City of Heroes, for giving me a superhero social network combined with amazingly smooth game play. Petitions signed with realistic expectations.
Quote:
What about:|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I'm stealing this line.
|
I don't negotiate with terrorists. I have Batman's writers.
Thank you, City of Heroes, for giving me a superhero social network combined with amazingly smooth game play. Petitions signed with realistic expectations.
Sounds like someone who deserved to be kicked, t'be honest. I understand getting irate on a hard TF (I was going nuts on my first and only LRSF where it seemed Numina had gone buff happy while we all hospitalled. The last mission was then impossible.)
Don't worry about it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Im wondering if this is the same person who played a Crab, not to long ago(Was this Virtue)
They didnt have any of the TT: Buffs, I stated, listen we are a defense/buff heavy team, those buffs would make a difference if we where soft capped or not.
She bemoaned & *******, after noticing she was not bringing anything to table, hardly using her powers to begin with, I kicked her, found a more reliable SoA.
She goes into Virtue TF channel starts freaking out on me to everyone, rather amusing. Which resulted in several folks /ignore & some who didnt know the whole story, /ignore me.
Like I care.
JJ
I delete more 50s, then you'll ever have.
http://www.pandora.com/people/jjdemon
I'm close to on the fence on this one. I understand being tired of hearing the reflexive cries of "SB plz!" and I can see how that could make it hard to want to use the power at all. And I hate to tell people how to play.
Superheroes in the comic books are a little like nation-states -- there's a strong tradition of sovereignty; they expect not to have their internal affairs meddled in. I've seen team-ups where a bossy hero like Reed Richards, Captain America, or Batman tells other superheroes how to use their powers and the heroes getting the lecture almost always express frustration or defiance, even when they go along.
If it were me, I'd have tried to emphasize "we need any help we can get" and "we're going to have to pull out all the stops for this" when asking for the speed boost. Maybe she would respond to a need better than a suggestion (which could be perceived as an order). I wouldn't have exactly begged, but just tried to play up the "tone" of being in a desperate fight and everybody needing to dig deep.
I hate to kick a player, and it's even worse at the end of a TF. I feel like I have to have a good reason or it borders on griefing.
That said, I can't find it in myself to fault you for this kick. Apparently numerous other players (maybe all? can't tell) had already asked you to kick her; at some point the feelings of those players have to be given some weight, too. When she threatened to quit, that meant that pretty much everyone but you had suggested it. That left you as the only vote for keeping her, so to speak. It's not inarguable grounds for a kick but it's not weak grounds either.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
You might have been on different PUGs than I have. |
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
If someone asks you to do something, it generally makes sense to actually do that.
|
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Tell me if I'm wrong on this.
Statesman TF.
1 Tank (Ice/Ice) not built to be the toughest admittedly.
1 Ill/Sonic
1 Fire/Rad
1 Fire/Kin
1 Energy Blaster
1 Fire Blaster
1 DP Blaster (me)
1 BS/WP Scrapper (was tougher than the tank)
...
Go through all the missions pretty much fine. Not to many problems. Fire/Kin complains about the Fire/Rad using their IMPS.
Speed Boost is asked for a couple of times (by two members when running low on END), but never "SB NOW" "SB SB SB" It's never given, and they move on, though I do get a tell from one member asking "Why isnt the Fire/Kin using SB"
I say don't worry, we're doing fine.
Get to the last mission.
Bad pull. Fine. We recover.
Get down to Scirrico and GW.
Pull Scirrico by himself. Team is running low on END due to his end draining attacks. The tank is needing healing.
I ask the Fire/Kin (in tells)...please SB the team and use Tranfusion to keep the tank healed.
I get...
[Name Deleted]: I am doing blind, slow, hold, slow and end drain, what else do you wish of me? Oh and auto heal!
Mind you, the Fire/Kin was also throwing out Fire Blast and Fire Ball.
Which I ask, to please just try my tactics (admitted that was spam the hell out of Transfusion and SB the team).
We beat Sciricco.
Then the Fire/Kin says "They're the only ones debuffing the others are't doing anything."
Now mind you, I'm watching the team, watching the debuffs/buffs.
Ill/Sonic, had all the debuffs going and the team shielded (with just the first shield, didnt have the other).
Fire/Rad, had the debuff toggles going, throwing out the target debuff, and using AM and the AOE heal (which isn't much)...ont he grouped up squishies.
And I was running in, using Drain Psyche for the -regen (slotted up to 147% -regen (so it's not like it was all that much), but using the debuffs I had available as well.
FIRE/KIN: well, speed boosts for pulling more then one AV at a time, is useless and a mootpoint.
So I explained what SB did.
FIRE/KIN: (9i can have my debuffs up more often with SB on me
Now at this point. No was asking for SB anyways, as we didnt need it on GW. We needed ID on the tank, so the tank wouldn't get held.
Now like I admitted to begin with. Tank wasn't the strongest tank out there. The tank needed a backup. Plain and simple. But the Fire/Kin was all upset over being asked. I didn't threaten to kick, I didnt get upset. I just asked.
Now all this time, everyone's asking me in tells to kick her.
FIRE/KIN: I don't tell you how to play a blaster, please don't tell me how to play my alt, please, or I shall leave now.
^^^In tell to me.
Now, I hadn't kicked her. I wasn't going to kick her. THEN SHE SAID THIS!
Sooo...I kicked her.
She of course got upset. Put me on ignore. Went into the global and said we just kept wanting SB, SB isnt going to save the team. ect...ect...which I tried to defend, but she just kept repeating herself, so I gave up, because like I said, I'm pretty sure she put me on ignore.
Now I've played...yes PLAYED...my trollers to 50.
And nope. I don't think that tank was going to stand up against Recluse without alot more help and/or luck.
But tell me...was I wrong in kicking? Was I wrong in asking to please try this tactic?
We werent a team going "SB NOW" for 5 missions. Up untill that point the only deaths had been my blaster vs the VINES (I got to close...okay...look at my sig...I obviously like to play in melee).
But tell me...was I wrong in kicking her?
I mean...look what she said.
And really. Blind? Blind? Yes, I know she meant Smoke. Against the AV? *sigh*
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection