I don't lead a lot of teams, and I mainly end up leading them when a previous leader takes off and leaves me the star. I do like to team as a member, however, and team dynamics are really very simple. In this game, teaming is an entirely voluntary exercise. I don't mean that in the sense that you should never have to team; you should spend some of your time teaming, and if you don't solo all that well or it isn't fun, that's what teams are for. It might be your only viable option, if you want to have a good time.
But teaming is voluntary because nothing holds you to the team, and nothing is there to force a team leader to deal with difficult team members. There's not even a dialogue box when you click to quit team. That's how easy it is.
So the few times that I have kicked somebody, it isn't because they are difficult or mean, or don't do what I want. It's because they don't really want to be on my team. Oh, the controller won't use speed boost even after I or others ask? Oh, the scrapper wants to go into the next room and fight alone? Oh, the blaster wants to afk in the corner? Oh, team member number 4 wants to tell everyone how to play, or wants to make fun of the controller, or wants to tell racist jokes? They must not want to be on a team. Specifically, they don't want to be on my team.
I will let these people know this (Like this: That's not funny/stop it/I think we'd better off if you tried taunting that boss/Your debuffs would really help right now/etc), and if they keep doing what they are doing, then I assume that they have a misconception about team dynamics. They clearly don't want to be on my team, but they aren't hitting the button that allows them to quit and go do what they want. So I assist them.
Things are similar when I am not leading a team. I play how I like. Sometimes, I don't feel like keeping SB on all the team members all the time, or keeping my ice shields up on everyone, or whatever. So I don't. If the team leader or a member has a problem with that, and lets me know about that, then I decide whether or not I want to be on that team. Sometimes I do, and I adjust accordingly. Sometimes, I'd rather not.
This doesn't mean I don't get frustrated like the OP. But it does mean that I tend not to get frustrated on teams that I am running. I'm also pretty easy going most of the time as well, so my range for acceptable team behavior is pretty wide (except the racist jokes. I'm looking at you, blaster from two weeks ago!).
Stick to your own criteria, and you'll find yourself venting less and looking for justification or validation rarely.
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I Wouldn't worry that much about it. most players arent that specific, unless it is a master run, and people specify when making them. but as someone who has played this game for a long time, this has never happened to me, and the closest was when i was turned down once for not having a specific build, that is once in over 5 years. so if you feel like teaming, just get a little feel for the team first, you will have a better idea if its going to be a bulld centric group or a lets just play group. |
Originally Posted by Caemgen
This is why 90+% of the time I do not team.
Sure, I'm just a natural loner anyway, like to do things at my own pace and in my own way, but I have occasionally been tempted to team up to try a task force so I could experience it or get whatever... But then I remember how often I see threads like this. I'm still relatively new to the game and by far most used to tankers and scrappers.. So I don't know how every different build should be played to maximize it's benefit, I don't know the INS and outs and all the slang and tactics etc etc etc... And since threads like this make me so reluctant to team, well I guess I'll never learn them either. Team leaders can kick whoever they want, they get that power for running the team. They can have public arguments about it in game and then take it to the boards later - why not? I have no real problem with any of it... Just, you know, don't be complaining later on down the line about it being hard to find or make teams. There would be at least one more person to join up on occasion if it wasn't so high stress and likely to lead to being kicked and made the subject of public ridicule... Sure, maybe the name wasn't used here but since it was public in game for a while I would guess one could find out if they cared... *shrug* Anyway, like I said, I have no problem with the OP's actions per se... Just understand that some of those turning down offers to join a team are doing so at least in part because they don't want to be the subject of your next post. |
I have noticed on less populated servers, the priority is getting bodies on the team, not purples. So dont worry, just try if the desire hits you. The only caveat is, be considerate, try to consider how to be at least useful on the team with what you have, speed boost is nuts, it starts too many fights for my preference. but if you have an empath and have fortify, or a buff class with applied shields..just be considerate.
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Heh...I don't think you read everything.|
Originally Posted by Nibb_Nibb
Personally, I not only think you were wrong to kick the player, I think you are wrong to come here looking for justification.
You don't know the person's build or slotting. Maybe what she was doing was exactly what she was slotted to be best at. Suggesting another strategy is one thing, but demanding someone to play how you want them to play is quite another and is exactly what you did. So she got a mouthy and threatening when you backed her into a corner? That's completely expected. I run an Illusion / Kinetics who doesn't have Speed Boost; in part for just what you described. That's not how I built my character. I'm a melee specialist. I can stand right beside most tanks/scrappers and offer them constant protection and support. That's how I'm built. People who think they know more than I do see me run and and instantly start saying, "You're a Controller -- you need to stay back". Wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm not some mindless buff-bot. I'm built to tank and scrap if needed. I'm very upfront about it too. When I ask to join a team, I tell them I don't have Speed Boost. If they kick me, that's their loss. In my eyes, there are three basic reasons to be kicked from a team: Extended and/or repeated AFKs (leeching), abusive chat (sexual or racial typically), or blatant disregard for the team (constant "train" pulls, wandering off alone, refusal to enter/exit a mission, etc). Bad players will never get better if they just keep getting kicked off teams. I'd rather have seven bad players who are doing "something" than seven players meeting any of the three attitudes above. So my question to you OP is this: Did you complete the mission? |
SB wasn't asked for non-stop. 2 asked for it once. I asked nicely in a tell during one AV battle. When the /RAD is out of END, how does one keep the debuffs on?
We beat the AV without the SB.
But after that, onto GW, I got a "...or I can quit the team."
If they never had SB to begin with, it would of never came up. Why? Because it's a power they wouldn't have had. Sooo you move on.
But I asked. And got that responce.
And of all the teammates, only the FIRE/KIN had told someone else on the team how to play their toon. I never once told the /KIN how to play their toon.
I asked. And got responded with "I'm doing everything, the rest of the team is doing nothing." (which wasn't true) and then later "...or I can quit the team."
That last part is was what killed it for me.
As to whether or not we finished it. I said already we didn't. Couldn't keep the tank alive during GW. I was willing to continue trying (I'm that type of player), the rest just wanted to give up and did so after the 5th attempt.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by Caemgen
This is why 90+% of the time I do not team.
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| There would be at least one more person to join up on occasion if it wasn't so high stress and likely to lead to being kicked and made the subject of public ridicule... Sure, maybe the name wasn't used here but since it was public in game for a while I would guess one could find out if they cared... *shrug* |
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| Just understand that some of those turning down offers to join a team are doing so at least in part because they don't want to be the subject of your next post. |
If you're really turning down team invites because you're worried someone might end up talking about you.... I dunno..... work on your self-esteem, I guess.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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In a tough fight? Sure.|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
Surely if you go on any TF as a kin it is expected that you would be prepared to SB everyone.
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Consistently on anyone with END issues? Sure.
Keeping 7 people SB'ed every single minute for an hour, two hours.... not gonna happen.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
My view on this. yes the player was being an idiot, but like others I don't like kicking people especially on the last mission of a SF/TF, unless their idioicy actively causes deaths. At the very least I would've given them a warning
In terms of expectations,
Buff/ Healer type defender, I expect them to do the buff/ heal thing
Controllers/ Corrupters, I don't expect it, but would hope in critical situations they would buff/ heal
Masterminds, just a warning to blueside for when MM's head that way after GR, never invite a MM with the idea that they will heal or buff you
First let me share my position on kicking:
I Kicked a person only once. Dont even remember what we were doing (TF or Radios or whatever). I kicked because that particular person was insulting personally one person in the group, a person that 1) did nothing that explains the insults and 2) is someone that I know enough to say that he doesnt deserved that. Actually, everyone on the team was glad that I did that kick.
Back to the topic:
I never say or expect someone do play their character a certain way. I play expecting to do MY best, and its all I need. Rarelly I PUG. I mostly play with people I know, so we normally make efficient teams. If for some reasons someone isnt contributing to the team, I may send a tell asking if he need any suggestions, but otherwise I let everyone play the way they want. By the same token, when I play I dont care about how others want me to play. If they make a suggestion, I will hear and may decide to take it. If they make an arrogant order, I may get angry, and even slash back. But otherwise I am easy going. Need SB when I am on a Kin? Sure, get your SB. Boss me around and tell me what to do? Prepare to be in rough waters...
I dont believe in a holy team makeshift. Any TF can be beaten with any kind of team, it just takes more time and strategy to adapt to the situation.
Personally, I wouldnt have kicked that guy. I also wouldnt care about him. I would play as if he wasnt there, and if something good came from him, i would see it as a bonus.
If the team asked me to kick him, I would ask a vote. Open, so he can see the impact he had on the team.
Finally... Kins (and SB) are a luxury. They make things easier, but arent necessary. You should be able to live without then.
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
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Expectations are a wonderful thing; held by so many, and rarely are they complimentary.|
Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
Masterminds, just a warning to blueside for when MM's head that way after GR, never invite a MM with the idea that they will heal or buff you |
However, this absolute statement is not correct, as I will always attempt to heal and buff on my MMs (e.g. I never give Painbringer to my henchies when I'm on a team). However, with a full set of other powers, I don't always do it constantly. I will try my best, but can't guarantee that I'll keep you buffed and/or alive.
I wish I was that good to control (and I mean, control, not set in bodyguard mode and expect the henchies to control themselves) six creatures with suspect AI (the henchies, not the team), debuff, heal AND buff seven other people, but sometimes I'm just simply human.
My point? There are very few absolutes in life, or this game which we go to in the hope of having fun.
Back to the point of this thread - there's a reason I removed all my purple IOs off my first /kin corr and set a bind up for SB - it's the only thing people give a damn about, and has this unnerving secondary effect of reducing people to whinging toddlers if it's not cast at a period that they consider acceptable. Sure, I regularly use Transfusion, ID, Transference and FS on my /kin characters as well, but I make damn sure that I get SB out to everyone regularly - I'd rather that than listen to the constant din of unsatisfied souls.
Oh, and I agree with others that said that while the player's behaviour was probably sub-par, their absence did not benefit your team. Yes, you were spared their tells, but you could have done that by leaving them on team and putting them on ignore.
Whatever lack of beneficial participation you and/or the others perceived the person to display was gone along with everything else they were doing on the team (and by your own admission they were doing things that they thought were helpful or intelligent).
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It shouldn't though.|
Originally Posted by beyeajus
Sorry, but if you're rolling a kin then it just comes with the territory. Everybody knows that.
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SB is one of the best buffs in the game, who wouldn't ask for it. If you're a kin and you don't enjoy your team asking for SB, you're on the wrong secondary. |
I don't ask for buffs. I have a policy of never asking for buffs because I believe it promotes bad play: people soon learn that they can get other players to grovel by playing poorly.
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I'm implying none of these things; stop putting words in my mouth. I said:|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Well, first of all, none of the players in a TF situation are being asked to run it solo; it seems you are implying that the Kin's buffs are worth so much that the rest of the team might as well be solo without the Kin's help. They are in a situation with a player who isn't using all of their powers to the optimal level. There are still 7 other players on the team.
(Also, I have yet to see a situation where one player failing to use one power has caused a team to fail. Usually, what happens is that one player isn't using a power, the team says something... and then promptly gives up putting in full effort because they see that said player isn't "contributing" as much as others think they should be.) |
1) One of the purposes of a team is to tackle content that the players in it might not be able to achieve solo. As a collaborative effort, asking for help is not unreasonable; and
2) Knee-jerk reactions and blanket declarations of "don't tell me how to play" are selfish and uncooperative.
There's nothing wrong with a few clear directions from the team leader, or a teammate asking for a heal when the tank's in the deep red and the team is tackling some of the toughest content in the game. Religious belief in rules like "it's never acceptable to tell another player use X power please" is absurd. How about a more realistic and reasonable approach that acknowledges that while micromanaging teammates is rude, there's nothing wrong with a more knowledgeable player speaking up in good faith or a teammate asking for help?
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| Again, in my experience this is a problem of perception. By virtue of you noticing that the team is having a problem with X and player 5 has a power that mitigates the impact of X does not mean that it is essential for player 5 to use that power. Perhaps there is another way to get around the issue the team is having with X, but because you see the issue and ONE way to fix, that must happen, or the team will fail. If that really isn't the situation, then yes, the player should be using the power, but I don't think I have found a situation where any one player can decimate a team by not using a single power but still be contributing in other ways. |
Honestly, if you got the star you're kind of responsible for these choices. If more than one person on your team is asking you to kick a person, that person is doing something wrong. If the majority of your team is asking you to kick a person, do it, you're the guy holding the star it's not your job to be nice to everyone.
I've been on teams like that and honestly if one person is making several people want them gone, it's better for team morale imo to get rid of the person before other people decide to stop wasting their time and quit, which isn't any better than kicking a person and is in fact much worse imo.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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In fact, with the person kicked, team morale was increased. Even after failing the TF.
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Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
Honestly, if you got the star you're kind of responsible for these choices. If more than one person on your team is asking you to kick a person, that person is doing something wrong. If the majority of your team is asking you to kick a person, do it, you're the guy holding the star it's not your job to be nice to everyone.
I've been on teams like that and honestly if one person is making several people want them gone, it's better for team morale imo to get rid of the person before other people decide to stop wasting their time and quit, which isn't any better than kicking a person and is in fact much worse imo. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
HEY EVERYBODY!!!
The venerable Rude Tells thread is thatta way! And we're desperately looking for new blood/fresh meat!
The thread is wasting away! Git ovah dere!!! 
Personally, I not only think you were wrong to kick the player, I think you are wrong to come here looking for justification.
You don't know the person's build or slotting. Maybe what she was doing was exactly what she was slotted to be best at. Suggesting another strategy is one thing, but demanding someone to play how you want them to play is quite another and is exactly what you did. So she got a mouthy and threatening when you backed her into a corner? That's completely expected.
I run an Illusion / Kinetics who doesn't have Speed Boost; in part for just what you described. That's not how I built my character. I'm a melee specialist. I can stand right beside most tanks/scrappers and offer them constant protection and support. That's how I'm built. People who think they know more than I do see me run and and instantly start saying, "You're a Controller -- you need to stay back". Wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm not some mindless buff-bot. I'm built to tank and scrap if needed. I'm very upfront about it too. When I ask to join a team, I tell them I don't have Speed Boost. If they kick me, that's their loss.
In my eyes, there are three basic reasons to be kicked from a team: Extended and/or repeated AFKs (leeching), abusive chat (sexual or racial typically), or blatant disregard for the team (constant "train" pulls, wandering off alone, refusal to enter/exit a mission, etc). Bad players will never get better if they just keep getting kicked off teams. I'd rather have seven bad players who are doing "something" than seven players meeting any of the three attitudes above.
So my question to you OP is this: Did you complete the mission?