GR: Tanks and Brutes
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-03-05 11:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Give up already. Tanks will not be replaced by brutes. Tanks are not going to get a damage buff. They perform different functions.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
With GR coming...
How many of you will re-roll your Tank into a Brute? How many of you will re-roll your Brute into a Tank? How many of you will stick with your Tank blueside? How many of you will stick with your Brute redside? Why will you re-roll your Tank into a Brute? Why will you re-roll your Brute into a Tank? Why will you stick with your Tank blueside? Why will you stick with your Brute redside? |
Stop asking loaded questions.
Stop making pointless suggestions.
Stop trolling.
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I will be keeping all of my current tanks as tanks. My one brute will be rerolled, but as a scrapper rather than a tank, and only once his primary gets proliferated to scrappers.
Personally, I view brutes more as slightly tougher scrappers than as offensive tanks. My tanks are tanks because I wanted a tough as nails meleer who is first in, last out, and protects the squishies to the end. I want to beat things up too, but for a tank, foremost I want to hold aggro and survive. To make a brute tough enough to fulfill what I want from my tanks would take too much investment for my tastes - I prefer characters who can do what I made them for with frankenslotting and without sacrificing my actual powers for things like the fighting pool.
So for my playstyle, brutes compete with scrappers, not tanks. And in that comparison, scrappers win by a landslide simply because I hate chasing a fury bar. Brutes may or may not be numerically 'better', but their playstyle just doesn't fit me. I'd like to have the freedom to pause for a second to check my inventories, survey the next group of foes, recover some end, or simply look away from the screen for a moment without my damage dropping through the floor.
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As a percentage of population Brutes outnumber Tanks by quite a margin. When Blueside Brutes are possible, I expect they will outnumber Tanks as well. The reason being most people either find the Fury mini-game fun or don't mind it, and Brute secondaries can be buffed to Tanker levels for team play and Brutes are more solo friendly (especially in the early game).
Tankers will very much still have their place, and they have a dedicated fanbase. Generally, those who play Tanks right now will probably keep most if not all of their Tanks, and will make some Villain Tanks as well in all likelihood. The big questionmark here is how often will new players roll Tanks as opposed to Brutes? Most likely the answer will be "not often". The relative ease of the Brute's early game will help see to that (how many people try Tanks, only to delete them in the teens or early 20's? "Most of them" is a pretty safe guess.)
PvP will have a reverse dynamic. Brutes sans Fury and Tanks have very much the same damage in PvP, but Tanks are much hardier. Brutes can theoretically get more damage output but in practice this doesn't happen often given the nature of PvP. I see Villain Tanks outnumbering Villain Brutes in the PvP portion of the game to about the same degree Brutes will outnumber Tanks in PvE.
In summary, in PvE Brutes will outnumber Tanks, in PvP Tanks will outnumber Brutes, the current Tank fanbase isn't going away, but new players will generally choose Brutes over Tanks (there will be some new players who fall in love with Tanks, but they will be in the minority, and a good portion of those new players will likely have PvP in mind).
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Like another thread in another area, people will play what they want. It doesn't matter what we will roll, re-roll, not roll, etc.
You like tanks. Roll a tank. Like brutes, roll a brute. Like both, roll one of each.
This game doesn't require you to play one AT and be forever stuck using it.
I want to make a Dark Armor/Claws* Tank and port it red-side.
I want to make a SS/Regen* Brute and port it blue-side.
*(Gimme as a port please! Thanks.)
If this post is a hidden cry for buffs to Tanks, all I would suggest is increasing their aggro cap to 20 and grant their version of Taunt a 7 target cap versus 5 for Brutes (all 7 targets receiving -range, of course).
Even if nothing changes, Tanks have a place and I will gladly roll one.
The kind of people who think that brutes will replace tanks are the kind of people who don't like tanks in the first place. This is roughly equivalent to people who think that the ability to buy Coke will completely obliterate Pepsi as a company.
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No it's not that. I just made the mistake of basing my suggestions off the fact that I (being a long time Tank) would choose a Brute over a Tank.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
The kind of people who think that brutes will replace tanks are the kind of people who don't like tanks in the first place. This is roughly equivalent to people who think that the ability to buy Coke will completely obliterate Pepsi as a company.
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I love Tanks...but after playing the same exact character as a Tank and as a Brute...I think that Brutes are "better".
I was clearly wrong...as I have been told many times...in the sense that there will be a lot of people who don't think like me...meaning there will still be a lot of people who will prefer the Tank over the Brute.
It's not that I don't like Tanks.
Also, I know...now...that my suggestions and ideas were wrong/not needed...so basically there is no more need for this thread.
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I direct you back to my quote.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
I love Tanks...but after playing the same exact character as a Tank and as a Brute...I think that Brutes are "better".
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If you don't appreciate the areas a tank is better than the brute, you're not really all that into tanks. Make a brute instead. Knock yourself the **** out. But don't think that because you think that way, everyone thinks that way.
I love scrappers, brutes and tanks, but now that they are going to be more directly in competition with eachother, I think it's fair to look at them and consider a few possible tweaks. In terms of the comparison at hand, tanks vs brutes, and having played both at's to 50 several times, I would definitely give brutes the slight edge in overall quality. The gap is not so large as to demand a change, but I would suggest improving a tanks ability to generate and hold aggro to assure it's one definitive roll is preserved.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
I direct you back to my quote.
If you don't appreciate the areas a tank is better than the brute, you're not really all that into tanks. Make a brute instead. Knock yourself the **** out. But don't think that because you think that way, everyone thinks that way. |
Perhaps you should take your own advice. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they're 'not really all that into tanks'.
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You know, this sort of clever backchat only works when it makes a point, right? Ie, when it's clever?
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Perhaps you should take your own advice. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they're 'not really all that into tanks'.
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Quoted for truth. I am dead tired of these threads.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Give up already. Tanks will not be replaced by brutes. Tanks are not going to get a damage buff. They perform different functions.
Stop asking loaded questions. Stop making pointless suggestions. Stop trolling. |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
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Maybe you haven't met the right tank yet! Maybe.. have you tried blind dates? Are you sure you're not into tanks?
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
You know, this sort of clever backchat only works when it makes a point, right? Ie, when it's clever?
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Missing the point doesn't mean a point wasn't being made. You claimed that a poster who stated his opinion that brutes are superior to tanks, feels that way because he's 'just not that into tanks'. Maybe he just thinks tanks are inferior? You can be 'really into' a sports team that is inferior to other teams, and still state that the team you like is inferior. I'm really into at's, builds and powersets that are inferior to other at's, builds, and powersets, and if I state that said at, build or powerset is inferior to another, it does not negate the fact I"m 'really into' said at, build or powerset. I'm not trying to create 'clever backchat', I'm simply pointing out your faulty logic.
I think the most constructive way to argue would be to state your opinion and support it with examples and/or observations. It's my observation that as each at matures, a brute and tank have closer parity in regards to survivability and aggro management than the gap that exists in offensive abilities. That is why I would like to see tanks get a bit of a buff to give them a more definitive advantage in their defined role as aggro magnet. The fact is, many top end brutes will make a top end tank completely irrelevant on a team, nearly matching them in aggro management abilities while blowing them away in the damage department.
If you disagree, that's cool, lol. I'd love to hear your take on it, but if you're just going to claim I'm not that into tanks, don't bother.
To preserve the Tankers role and mainline of thinking I'd like to see them being able to quickly force aggro from Brutes/Scrappers when needed.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
To preserve the Tankers role and mainline of thinking I'd like to see them being able to quickly force aggro from Brutes/Scrappers when needed.
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The problem with that, is aggro helps brute's be what they are.
And while you've stated "when needed", it's often quite frustrating as a brute on a team with a Tanker who constantly tries to taunt mobs off of you - even though you can handle it.
Not to mention I think people are generally over reacting.
Most blueside exclusive players expecting brutes to function and perform like tankers from the get-go will be in for a surprise.
Tankers redside intrigue me more than blueside brutes. One of the reasons I have relatively few villains is on account of repetitive and excessively frustrating (or "challenging") content. Taking the AT designed to get past frustrating content without frustration might make the content more entertaining to me. Tankers will probably be in reasonable demand for such things as the Recluse and Barracuda SFs.
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I will most likely remake one of my scrappers into a brute. They are numerically superior, at least when I play them (I know the whole fury issue, but I have little problem staying at 80%+, especially once the build comes into fruition.) The brute version of his build offers comparable damage, better survivability, and far better team utility, without making any sacrifices to solo ability.
I will probably make my tanker into a brute as well for much of the same reasons. Also fits concept far better (Super Strength, Rage, Fury, you get the idea.)
I don't like tanks. I never have. I feel they have little application beyond some very specific enemies. Everything else can be handled better by a controller and a competent team.
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That would be extremely frustrating. I already have to work to have some aggro on my scrapper, brute( if the tanker hit them first) and blapper. Making to tanker being able to steal aggro when he feels (as opposed to when needed, cause then it's the attacked player that should click something the option to lose aggro)|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
To preserve the Tankers role and mainline of thinking I'd like to see them being able to quickly force aggro from Brutes/Scrappers when needed.
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If that changes happen, i'll be force to make sure there's 5-6 enemies more then the "aggro capX number of tanklers", just so i dont fall asleep.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Doubtful. Given that it's very possible to do both these SFs without any real form of aggro management, and Brutes have been doing the RSF (arguably the most "difficult" PvE content currently in the game) just fine since I7, I don't think Tankers will be replacing Brutes for anything. Brutes replacing Tankers - maybe, maybe not. The two ATs are different enough that I don't think it will be a huge issue. Besides, redside AT construction and team synergy mean that pretty much any combination of villains can steamroll anything so long as the players at the keyboard are competent.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Tankers will probably be in reasonable demand for such things as the Recluse and Barracuda SFs.
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I don't have any Tanks.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
With GR coming...
How many of you will re-roll your Tank into a Brute? |
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| How many of you will re-roll your Brute into a Tank? |
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| How many of you will stick with your Tank blueside? |
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| How many of you will stick with your Brute redside? |
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| Why will you re-roll your Tank into a Brute? |
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| Why will you re-roll your Brute into a Tank? |
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| Why will you stick with your Tank blueside? |
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| Why will you stick with your Brute redside? |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yes you might be able to handle it but it could be a scenario that is best handled a different way for the sake of others. Given your input I wouldn't disagree to a vet reward power that allows a Tanker to force aggro when needed as atleast its in the hopes that an experienced Tanker would have it when playing with a not so experienced Brute.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
And while you've stated "when needed", it's often quite frustrating as a brute on a team with a Tanker who constantly tries to taunt mobs off of you - even though you can handle it.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Your point is taken, Dawn, however the thought of my brute being forced to play around with a fury bar only filled to a quarter or less is problematic to say the least. At least scrappers don't need fury to generate respectable damage. Even now, if I find myself teamed with more than two other brutes on a team, I would rather grab a different toon. So, yeah, unless you want to give me a spike in my base damage so that it remains viable and rewarding when there are taunt bot tankers hoarding aggro away from my brutes, I don't believe this will work at all.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Yes you might be able to handle it but it could be a scenario that is best handled a different way for the sake of others. Given your input I wouldn't disagree to a vet reward power that allows a Tanker to force aggro when needed as atleast its in the hopes that an experienced Tanker would have it when playing with a not so experienced Brute.
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You also pose another potentially disturbing question. How dare you- even if you do have 63 veteran badges and I only have 3- make the call that I can't handle my aggro? Giving anyone this kind of power in game is frightening. That isn't even mentioning the fact that vet badges do not always equal experience. The only thing veteran badges have qualitatively proven to be indicative of is how long a particular account has been subscribed to the the game. Nothing more, nothing less. Experience is not always congruent with the number of veteran badges one has.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Compare this:
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to:
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Originally Posted by Vitality
I... would choose a Brute over a Tank.
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| It's not that I don't like Tanks. |
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| I love Tanks... |
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| but after playing the same exact character as a Tank and as a Brute... |
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| I was clearly wrong. |
With GR coming...
How many of you will re-roll your Tank into a Brute?
How many of you will re-roll your Brute into a Tank?
How many of you will stick with your Tank blueside?
How many of you will stick with your Brute redside?
Why will you re-roll your Tank into a Brute?
Why will you re-roll your Brute into a Tank?
Why will you stick with your Tank blueside?
Why will you stick with your Brute redside?