GR: Tanks and Brutes

As many have stated, brutes and tanks really just have different roles.


At the heart of it, tankers are guardians, the 'tough guys' that put themselves in harm's way for the greater good. Some can do very good damage as well, but from the auto-hit taunt, to the highest threat level, to gauntlet, tankers are meant to take the beating, and make sure somebody else isn't. My tankers, as characters, are the 'tough fighter' characters, able to fight at times...but on a team, there's no mistaking that I'll taunt/pound the guy picking on the squishy and leave whatever I had been pounding on behind. Getting aggro is fast and easy, killing things takes time.

My brutes? They can be the attention divas...they like being the center of attention, but it's not always good for them. They get aggro to get the 'heart pounding,' but can easily get in over their heads. They're less guardians, and more warriors/berserkers. You CAN be the aggro magnet, but you're just as good, if not better, as the guy killing stuff (eliminating threats altogether) as the guy making sure each and every foe is picking on you, not anybody else. Why? You can take down many foes in two to four hits, once you're going. If a squishy is being harmed, throw down that few extra attack or two. Threat eliminated, then if you want pound on whatever is being so crass as to ignore you.

If you were looking for a crazy fighter character when you made the guardian-like tanker, I can see why somebody might be disappointed. But archetypes have different niches, and the similarities between tankers and brutes still don't make them share the same niche.

I'm in the minority in this thread, but I would like to see Tankers get a slight lift to keep them competitive. The way I'd like to go about it is a little different than the normal cap method, though.

Personally, what I'd like to see is the Tanker's Gauntlet power expanded so that it causes the Tanker to be appraised as one level higher than his or her actual level when calculating defense and resistance against an attacker. The Tankers maximum defense and resistance would still be 95%/90% to any attack, but a level 50 Tanker would be treated as if s/he was level 51 when defending against an attack. This way, Tankers get a noticeable advantage, but only when fighting higher level enemies (IMO the real situation where a Tanker should outshine other ATs anyway), and that advantage is available both for Tankers who are capped and those who aren't, all the way from level 1.

Several recent TFs and this past DXP weekend reminded and underscored to me the difference between a typical Tank and a typical Brute. They're very different animals, for their team-mates as well as themselves.

As a squishy, I can depend on a typical tank to hold aggro and remain alive far, far, far more than a typical brute.

Brutes pose a much stronger threat to Scrappers since they're tougher and their inherent can lead to higher DPS than a Scrapper's.

The problem with Defenders and Tankers, (and Blasters, to a lesser extent), is that they were designed to fill antiquated MMO team roles. The holy trinity of the healer/tank/nuker.

(Before anyone with a blue shield starts warming up their keyboard for a tirade, I mean healer in the archaic sense of a supporting character, I'm well aware a Defender who focuses on healing is a Defender that is 90% fail by volume. The 'healer' construct is an unfortunate throwback to stuff like EQ.)

Then CoV comes along and shows that the healer/buffer/debuffer character can also nuke. And that the tanker can also smash things to bits. And that the nuker can also mezz stuff.

Now, I don't believe in all the zomgdoom that when GR hits no one would play Tankers anymore. It'd probably be better for 99% of the content from a numbers perspective, but it won't happen. Nor will all Defenders vanish and become Corruptors. Simply because some people prefer being a Tanker to a Brute or a Defender to a Corruptor. In an environment most people are in to have fun, most people will play what they find fun, oddly enough.

For me personally, I find the Defender and Tanker roles unfortunate because they make what I feel is an unnecessary sacrifice for their high buff/debuff/defense values.

If a Brute can be tough enough and a Corruptors buffs/debuffs are strong enough, which they are, why would I make a Tanker or Defender?

That said, I don't think the solution is to make Brutes squishier or Corruptor secondaries weaker. In much the same way that I don't think giving Tankers and Defenders more damage would help them. Sure, it'd help them do more damage and solo faster, but it wouldn't differentiate them from Brutes and Corrs.

Unfortunately, I don't know what would.

Just brainstorming, if a Tanker is supposed to hold aggro and the Defender is supposed to defend the team, then their Inherent should reward them for doing so and help them do it better. All the good inherents both reward the AT for doing what they do best and help them do it better. Scourge, Criticals, Defiance, Fury, Containment, Assassination, Supremacy, for example.

Now, Gauntlet at least does one of those things. It helps a Tanker get and hold aggro. Great, now what? The Tanker only gains a benefit from having aggro if they've got an aura like Invincibility/RttC/Energy Absorbtion or AAO. In which case, yay, they get aggro, their defenses/offenses go up. But all sets should have some kind of tangible benefit from having aggro.

Vigilance does half of one of those things. It helps you do your job, but only if you're doing it badly or not doing it at all. It doesn't reward you for defending your team, in fact quite the opposite. Not bothering to buff/debuff so everyone is dying? Great! Have a massive endurance discount so you can do nothing even cheaper!

Better Inherents are the answer imo. Messing with buff/debuff/damage/defense scalars doesn't do anything but further blur the lines between ATs. The Inherents should be what defines and differentiates them.

I don't think the solution is to make Tankers tougher, either by scaling their numbers up or giving them higher caps or whatever.

They're already arguably too tough, since they pay for it in damage, a bad bargain a Brute doesn't have to make. IMO what Tankers need is a revamped Inherent that better differentiates them from Brutes.

Oh this Topic is new!...wait.