GR: Tanks and Brutes
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-03-05 11:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I must question your logic that presumes a large quantity of veteran badges is synonymous with experience. I can't tell you how many times I have found this to be untrue. Sometimes the people who have a great handle on their toon might surprise you to have far fewer veteran badges than you might expect. It is a fun game I play- try to judge by an avatar's behavior how many vet badges they have. I have learned that you simply can't judge. It is very nearly unpredictable. |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Then a suggest they make a "ally phase" power for controller, defender, corruptor and mastermind. This way, "when needed" the support character could put any teamate out of danger. Even the tanker if he "feel" he can't handle the aggro.
If we make it a vet power, no problem, since the support character will be experienced. =) |
Let's not forget that some people have even purchased accounts from friends or complete strangers. Or, that sometimes account holders will allow friends to play who have no clue what they are really doing.
And again, I think a power that would involuntarily phase me just because someone else feels I am in over my head is wholly unwelcome. It is bad enough that someone can make you invisible without you approving of it, but to go beyond that is just inordinate.
I will vote an explicit no to vet powers that would alter the playing experience of other subscribers in the nature you and others have described in this thread.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Quote:
My post was meant to be sarcastic, and to show how bad it would be to let tankers( or any AT) decide for someone else when he's in over his head and to alter his play-style so drasticaly.|
Originally Posted by magikwand
I must question your logic that presumes a large quantity of veteran badges is synonymous with experience. I can't tell you how many times I have found this to be untrue. Sometimes the people who have a great handle on their toon might surprise you to have far fewer veteran badges than you might expect. It is a fun game I play- try to judge by an avatar's behavior how many vet badges they have. I have learned that you simply can't judge. It is very nearly unpredictable.
Let's not forget that some people have even purchased accounts from friends or complete strangers. Or, that sometimes account holders will allow friends to play who have no clue what they are really doing. And again, I think a power that would involuntarily phase me just because someone else feels I am in over my head is wholly unwelcome. It is bad enough that someone can make you invisible without you approving of it, but to go beyond that is just inordinate. I will vote an explicit no to vet powers that would alter the playing experience of other subscribers in the nature you and others have described in this thread. |
I totally aggree with what you said, and i don't believe vet badges to be an absolute rules. I was just fallowing New Dawn's logic. =)
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
Quote:
Oh- thanks for the clarification |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
My post was meant to be sarcastic, and to show how bad it would be to let tankers( or any AT) decide for someone else when he's in over his head and to alter his play-style so drasticaly.
I totally aggree with what you said, and i don't believe vet badges to be an absolute rules. I was just fallowing New Dawn's logic. =) |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
My two tankers will stay tankers...
The Stone/Dark Melee will go Rogue... Not fully villain, but she is tempted by the darkness in her heart.
The Shield/Ice will stay pristine and pure as a primeval iceberg. She wont even touch the islands.
My one and only brute (Fire/Fire) will turn into a hero. Full hero. She is on RI because she is mentally ill... and she will find a cure...
** Guardian�s Crazy Catgirl **
************* 22 XxX 10 *************
Yes. I can get lost on a straight-line map.
Quote:
None of mine.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
With GR coming...
How many of you will re-roll your Tank into a Brute? |
Quote:
| How many of you will re-roll your Brute into a Tank? |
Quote:
| How many of you will stick with your Tank blueside? |
Quote:
| How many of you will stick with your Brute redside? |
Honestly, I think a lot of people will the same way about many of their existing characters: if they enjoy them, they're not going to switch. At least, not between Tanker and Brute.
Tankers and Brutes are different enough that I don't see the issue there. Even Scrappers and Brutes conflict more (in which case I'll take the Brute over the Scrapper most times given the same combinations are available).
I will have probably made my last Defender or Controller when GR hits, though--my personal preferences lean towards Mastermind and Dominator in both cases, again assuming the relevant overlapping powerset is available. Not to say I don't enjoy my Rad/Nrg or my Ill/Storm, but I chose those combos (especially the Ill/Storm) to help offset the limited damage of those ATs, where the presence of their buffs/debuffs is more important than their strength compared to Defenders.
Between Brutes and Tankers, I feel different, however: without those aforementioned buffs (of whatever strength), a Brute may have difficulty surviving long enough to do the Tanker's job--I've seen it too often, where a "Tanking" Brute is doing fine, but as soon as the buffers get bored and wade into the action and get themselves thrashed, the Brute, with no buffs anymore, themselves get hammered due to the aggro they've collected. Whereas, a Tanker may not require the buffs to survive, and overall team damage far makes up for the individual damage a Brute could have provided.
Not that that's the only way things work (obviously not), but that's the best part of this game: there's always a number of ways to accomplish something.
Ultimately, GR will allow for a larger number of character concepts, both hero and villain (and between), and probably won't affect AT percentages on a large scale much, though it may for individuals.
I have already created the same character as a Tanker and a Brute. (Shut up, Thirty-Seven, I know what I mean ) I'm keeping both of them. Each is that character in a different way. I think the Brute is more in line with my original concept, but the Tanker has features of the character as well, that the Brute does not.
My character is actually an "energy battery", that is able to shift his energy from shielding his body to putting more of it into his punches. Technically speaking he should be able to "switch" between Tanker and Scrapper, choosing to do more damage or have more defense based on the situation. Of course, I realize that would give him way too much advantage in most gameplay situations. Still, the Brute isn't exactly there, he doesn't have control of it, he "shifts" from defense to offense over time, instead of choosing the moment.
The Tanker is in some ways easier to deal with because it is more constant. I can use the powers, like Rage and Unstoppable, to represent the shift to offense. I can spend more End at the start of the fight to do more damage, instead of doing more damage at the end. And his Taunting is very much a major factor in the character. He doesn't just draw everything in the room to attack him, he WANTS everything in the room to attack him. It makes him feel like the tough guy.
My Brutes are Brutes and my Tankers are Tankers. I can't think of Loopy Loup Garou as a Tanker, he's a Brute, with all that entails. I can't think of Arladen as a Brute, he's a Tanker, a sneaky, stealthy Dark/DB Tanker, at that. He's not a Stalker either, he's a Tanker. A sneaky Tanker. Yeah, I know how that sounds, but that's the concept, and it works.
Maybe that's concept. But honestly, I don't think the gameplay is all that much the same, either. The only thing the powergamers have against Tankers is the damage. And quite frankly, I think that's just short sightedness. Something damage is not the main thing.
Quote:
I have 2 problems with this.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Yes you might be able to handle it but it could be a scenario that is best handled a different way for the sake of others. Given your input I wouldn't disagree to a vet reward power that allows a Tanker to force aggro when needed as atleast its in the hopes that an experienced Tanker would have it when playing with a not so experienced Brute.
|
1) I don't want anyone, ever, being able to take my aggro away from me at will. Like I said, taunt-bots are enough of a hassle as it is.
2) A true "veteran" tanker should have no problem pulling aggro from a not so experienced brute.
Iv currently re-rolled all my Brutes into Tankers.As for which side ill be taking them to?Im not sure at this point.
Tankers are not always the weak damage dealing meat shields people belive them to be.
All my Tankers have good to unstoppable survivability in a fight, and can dish out enough numbers to take the entire 8 man team fight to them selves with minimal to moderate effort and squash the mob, or in many cases, take on multipul mobs and crush them at a decently fast rate.
I run with Fire/Fire, Elec/Elec, SD/Axe, and a Ice/Ice set of Tankers.With the exception of the Ice Tank I do alot of damage and can wipe the floor with baddies like they are jokes.
My Fire/Fire can herd up a large mob, use BU and FE then Unload Fire Breath after properly pulling the mob to him around a corner.Then trigger Combustion, then move in and slap them all with Fire Sword Circle while Blazing Aura is hitting them as well.It can easly handle a 8 man team on its own with proper tactics and playing.
My Elec/Elec Tank can do virtually the same as my Fire Tank, just with diffrent powers, and a couple of these powers have KD for midigation to incomming damage, so it as well can handle a 8 man mission when played properly.
My Ice/Ice Tank.....Yeh, the Damage aint all that impressive right now, but his survivability is up there with Tanker Gods.This Tanker is a extreem late bloomer because its better damage potential will be aided by the Ice Epic Pool later on.After that, I suspect it will do rather decent Damage while holding mutlipul mobs.Making it a decent solo killer at a 8 man difficulty.
Then finally, my SD/Axe Tanker.This thing is a juggernaught in its self.Not only can it handle 2-3 Mobs at once in a 8 man mission, it can drop them fast.It matches my Fire Tankers damage all around, but instead of heavy DoT melting the mob the Damage comes all at once in huge bursts.This is my first Brute remake into a Tank and im not dissapointed.I was however dissapointed with the Brute version of this build.This Tanker doesnt dissapoint.
So honestly, I dont see a Tanker being phased out at all.Anyone silly enough to re-roll a Tanker into a Brute, especially if its a High level Tanker will be feeling the sting from it.
Now if a player re-rolled a Brute into a Scrapper, then I could see where there wouldnt be a huge transition issue.
Tankers are for the player that understand patience, in that it takes longer to gain Offensive power, but by no means will that make a Tanker a slouch in combat vs other Melee classes.
Iv heard the argument for how Willpower and Super Strength, as well as many other sets being numerically superior to the rest.I will heavly have to dissagree with this.These sets are Single Target Oriented, and provide very little in the way of holding Taunt, nore do they have the over all AoE capability and damage to be very useful at damage or holding Agro in general.They are numbers to keep that Tanker alive and thats about it.
I cant tell you how many times iv teamed with a Invln/SS or a WP/SS Build in a team that cant hold agro.My Fire/Fire Tanker can hold almost complete agro without having to buy the Taunt power from its secondary, while the WP or Invln build hold hardly any agro with me around, and IM the Scranker?
Im going to state that Tankers are the all around BEST Melee Class in the game.Brutes and Scrappers cannot handle the abuse like Tanker can, which offsets its lower damage.
In the long run, the Tanker can handle more, and dish out more damage over time then these to classes without ANY IO investment at all.If you need IOs to be a a complete power house, then your on the wrong Melee Class.
Quote:
So just to clarify, You think that your so'ed fire/fire tank can out damage my so'ed spines/fire scrapper. Over how much time? Like after I quit the game for a few months? Not saying it to be rude, but I have both a fire/fire/pyre tank, and a spines/fire scrapper. Scrapper wins hands down.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Iv currently re-rolled all my Brutes into Tankers.As for which side ill be taking them to?Im not sure at this point.
Tankers are not always the weak damage dealing meat shields people belive them to be. All my Tankers have good to unstoppable survivability in a fight, and can dish out enough numbers to take the entire 8 man team fight to them selves with minimal to moderate effort and squash the mob, or in many cases, take on multipul mobs and crush them at a decently fast rate. I run with Fire/Fire, Elec/Elec, SD/Axe, and a Ice/Ice set of Tankers.With the exception of the Ice Tank I do alot of damage and can wipe the floor with baddies like they are jokes. My Fire/Fire can herd up a large mob, use BU and FE then Unload Fire Breath after properly pulling the mob to him around a corner.Then trigger Combustion, then move in and slap them all with Fire Sword Circle while Blazing Aura is hitting them as well.It can easly handle a 8 man team on its own with proper tactics and playing. My Elec/Elec Tank can do virtually the same as my Fire Tank, just with diffrent powers, and a couple of these powers have KD for midigation to incomming damage, so it as well can handle a 8 man mission when played properly. My Ice/Ice Tank.....Yeh, the Damage aint all that impressive right now, but his survivability is up there with Tanker Gods.This Tanker is a extreem late bloomer because its better damage potential will be aided by the Ice Epic Pool later on.After that, I suspect it will do rather decent Damage while holding mutlipul mobs.Making it a decent solo killer at a 8 man difficulty. Then finally, my SD/Axe Tanker.This thing is a juggernaught in its self.Not only can it handle 2-3 Mobs at once in a 8 man mission, it can drop them fast.It matches my Fire Tankers damage all around, but instead of heavy DoT melting the mob the Damage comes all at once in huge bursts.This is my first Brute remake into a Tank and im not dissapointed.I was however dissapointed with the Brute version of this build.This Tanker doesnt dissapoint. So honestly, I dont see a Tanker being phased out at all.Anyone silly enough to re-roll a Tanker into a Brute, especially if its a High level Tanker will be feeling the sting from it. Now if a player re-rolled a Brute into a Scrapper, then I could see where there wouldnt be a huge transition issue. Tankers are for the player that understand patience, in that it takes longer to gain Offensive power, but by no means will that make a Tanker a slouch in combat vs other Melee classes. Iv heard the argument for how Willpower and Super Strength, as well as many other sets being numerically superior to the rest.I will heavly have to dissagree with this.These sets are Single Target Oriented, and provide very little in the way of holding Taunt, nore do they have the over all AoE capability and damage to be very useful at damage or holding Agro in general.They are numbers to keep that Tanker alive and thats about it. I cant tell you how many times iv teamed with a Invln/SS or a WP/SS Build in a team that cant hold agro.My Fire/Fire Tanker can hold almost complete agro without having to buy the Taunt power from its secondary, while the WP or Invln build hold hardly any agro with me around, and IM the Scranker? Im going to state that Tankers are the all around BEST Melee Class in the game.Brutes and Scrappers cannot handle the abuse like Tanker can, which offsets its lower damage. In the long run, the Tanker can handle more, and dish out more damage over time then these to classes without ANY IO investment at all.If you need IOs to be a a complete power house, then your on the wrong Melee Class. |
Dont get me wrong. I agree tanks are melee powerhouses. I know that they do very decent damage. It is just a matter of flavour. I prefer to take the mobs out faster with a slighter less safety margin, some people like the unkillable aspect, but will take the mobs out slightly slower.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
So just to clarify, You think that your so'ed fire/fire tank can out damage my so'ed spines/fire scrapper. Over how much time? Like after I quit the game for a few months? Not saying it to be rude, but I have both a fire/fire/pyre tank, and a spines/fire scrapper. Scrapper wins hands down.
|
Im talking about sheer toughness and AoE capability vs a Brute or a Scrapper.If you go on the basis of ST damage, no, a Tanker cannot out damage a Scrapper or a Brute.
I however know for a fact, that your Spines/FA Scrapper cant handle 2-3 mobs at 8 man difficulty at a time using only SOs, like some of my Tankers can.(Iv had a Spine/FA before)My Fire/Fire has difficulty doing it, but he can take 2 mobs at once.So the over all damage delivered is higher for the AoE centric Tanker then even your Scrapper in the long run.
My SD/Axe Tanker can handle 2-3 mobs at once and dish out Scrapper-ish damage due to AAO in SD.Its by far the fastest killing Tanker I have, with my Fire/Fire trailing for second place, and my Elec/Elec for third.
By Herding, I can hit the max targets on all the AoE attacks for my Tankers in this fashion.
All my tankers are however envious of your Dual Aura capability, but for most of your AoE potential, youd have to Tank.So in this fashion, the Tanker wins again.
I will agree 100% that your Spines/FA Scrapper can out damage your Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker hands down in a small mob situation, and in a ST situation, but for overall power housing mobs and melting them in larger number?No way in hell can your Scrapper do that unless he has a Tanker pulling all the agro so you can do the same.
I hope this answers your question.
Quote:
Looks like somebody doesn't understand the aggro and target caps.
|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
I however know for a fact, that your Spines/FA Scrapper cant handle 2-3 mobs at 8 man difficulty at a time using only SOs, like some of my Tankers can.(Iv had a Spine/FA before)My Fire/Fire has difficulty doing it, but he can take 2 mobs at once.So the over all damage delivered is higher for the AoE centric Tanker then even your Scrapper in the long run.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Actually, I very regularly aggro 2-3 Spawns of mobs set for 8 man (love the new system, so much better than asking for pads) the nice thing about doing that, is that only 1.5 spawns will follow me to my pull point, then as I kill the mobs, the rest of the spawns join in leisurly and I have no problem taking that level of aggro.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Im talking about sheer toughness and AoE capability vs a Brute or a Scrapper.If you go on the basis of ST damage, no, a Tanker cannot out damage a Scrapper or a Brute.
I however know for a fact, that your Spines/FA Scrapper cant handle 2-3 mobs at 8 man difficulty at a time using only SOs, like some of my Tankers can.(Iv had a Spine/FA before)My Fire/Fire has difficulty doing it, but he can take 2 mobs at once.So the over all damage delivered is higher for the AoE centric Tanker then even your Scrapper in the long run. My SD/Axe Tanker can handle 2-3 mobs at once and dish out Scrapper-ish damage due to AAO in SD.Its by far the fastest killing Tanker I have, with my Fire/Fire trailing for second place, and my Elec/Elec for third. By Herding, I can hit the max targets on all the AoE attacks for my Tankers in this fashion. All my tankers are however envious of your Dual Aura capability, but for most of your AoE potential, youd have to Tank.So in this fashion, the Tanker wins again. I will agree 100% that your Spines/FA Scrapper can out damage your Fire/Fire/Pyre Tanker hands down in a small mob situation, and in a ST situation, but for overall power housing mobs and melting them in larger number?No way in hell can your Scrapper do that unless he has a Tanker pulling all the agro so you can do the same. I hope this answers your question. |
Trust me, I make the most of my aoe potential, without having to tank. Tanking is a state of mind, one that is required on teams. Running solo, that much surviveability is overkill (in my eyes, ymwv) I just flip out and kill ****. As I said, I have a fire/fire/pyre tank, he was good, he was a god. For mob crunching, He is obsolete.
Quote:
Dechs. Srs bzns. No game physics speak please.
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Looks like somebody doesn't understand the aggro and target caps.
|
Quote:
I'm not going to re-roll anything. I'm going to roll new characters.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
With GR coming...
How many of you will re-roll your Tank into a Brute? How many of you will re-roll your Brute into a Tank? How many of you will stick with your Tank blueside? How many of you will stick with your Brute redside? Why will you re-roll your Tank into a Brute? Why will you re-roll your Brute into a Tank? Why will you stick with your Tank blueside? Why will you stick with your Brute redside? |
I'm probably not going to make any more tanks. I don't like tanks. I like tank power sets. I play solo mostly, only occasionally teaming. I don't care about agro management. When I do team, I don't want to take the point. I play tankers as weak scrappers who are really hard to defeat.
I would have played more scrappers, but I don't like most of the scrapper power sets. I'm not much into swords, claws or spines. Strangely, I do like swords with stalkers, but you didn't ask.
I would have played more brutes, but I don't like red side much. I generally prefer all of the villain archetypes to the hero archetypes. I just don't want to be the bad guy very often.
So I will roll more blue side brutes, and play them like solo scrappers with my favorite powersets, which is what I wanted all along.
Actually, I got tired of waiting for Going Rogue. I don't need it. I've already started making heroic brutes, stalkers, corrupters, masterminds and dominators by street sweeping Skuls and Snakes in Mercy Island, then moving into the AE building to run heroic story arcs. Not going to rob a bank with these, not going to use any villain contacts.
Quote:
The question might be loaded, the poster might have an agenda. But the topic of discussion was valid, interesting to some, and worth discussing. Not even remotely a troll post.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Give up already. Tanks will not be replaced by brutes. Tanks are not going to get a damage buff. They perform different functions.
Stop asking loaded questions. Stop making pointless suggestions. Stop trolling. |
Tanker is an archetype. Tanking is a role. Many tankers are not tanks, and will not or cannot tank well. Brutes can tank, though a Tanker might be able to tank better than a Brute, if their skills were equal. The Tanker has somewhat better tools for the tank role than the Brute. On the other hand, a well played Brute might tank better than a poorly played Tank.
And then there is the question of how good a tank do you really need? Perhaps a Brute is a good enough tank for most situations.
I personally do not care, since I got burned out on tanking back in my Everquest days. I've really enjoyed not tanking since then. But it is an interesting question. While I don't enjoy being evil, I do enjoy the fact that on the few villain teams I've played with, every villain was expected to look out himself, and not rely on the old tanker/healer shtick.
Quote:
Yeah, I have a couple brutes who can solo on +2/x8, and can hit the aggro cap. They don't need to be any more durable than that, because no more enemies than that will ever attack them. If my Brutes can hit aggro cap at +2/x8, and does more damage than a Tanker, why would I want to play a Tanker? |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Looks like somebody doesn't understand the aggro and target caps.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
So you can solo at +4/x8 instead?
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I have a couple brutes who can solo on +2/x8, and can hit the aggro cap. They don't need to be any more durable than that, because no more enemies than that will ever attack them. If my Brutes can hit aggro cap at +2/x8, and does more damage than a Tanker, why would I want to play a Tanker?
|
Quote:
When i read the OP i just thought of answering each with "Are we there yet?!"|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't have any Tanks.
Not me. None of my Brutes will become Tanks. No Tanks. Me. I won't. I won't. I don't have any. If I wanted a Tank, I'd have a Tank.  |
Maybe tossing in an "I have to go potty!" for flavor.
Yours is more honest.
Damn it, now i do have to go potty.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
I've watched heavily IOed Brutes solo at +4/x8. I can't imagine how ungodly slow a Tank fighting +4s would be.
|
Originally Posted by TheNavigator
So you can solo at +4/x8 instead?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Soloing +4s for anything other than a party trick is untenable. They give bucketloads of inf but for inf generation you're much better off with +2s or +3s.
Also Dispari has the right of it. A Tanker would take years to solo a +4x8 spawn, even a high damage combo like Fire/SS or SD/SS.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
Do scrappers solo AVs and Pylons because it's the best way to generate influence?
|
Originally Posted by Silas
Soloing +4s for anything other than a party trick is untenable. They give bucketloads of inf but for inf generation you're much better off with +2s or +3s.
Also Dispari has the right of it. A Tanker would take years to solo a +4x8 spawn, even a high damage combo like Fire/SS or SD/SS. |
Quote:
Pretty sure thats a party trick.
|
Originally Posted by TheNavigator
Do scrappers solo AVs and Pylons because it's the best way to generate influence?
|
My point is that there are always going to be some people who find Brutes (like Scrappers) to be too fragile for their play style.
somewhere in the forrest is a frog with a penus, but can grow a bangina if it has to. based on this I think its possible that GR will cause all toons to reroll as FF/Elec defenders and no one will team evar agin
If we make it a vet power, no problem, since the support character will be experienced. =)
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX