GR: Tanks and Brutes
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-03-05 11:41 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Give up already. Tanks will not be replaced by brutes. Tanks are not going to get a damage buff. They perform different functions.
Stop asking loaded questions. Stop making pointless suggestions. Stop trolling. |
I already play my SS blueside regen tank as if they were a scrapper or brute. The regen lets the output remain good but continuous. I loathe the concept of a tank per se. It's built on the fakeness of "taunt", which would be ignored by any foe with an IQ above room temperature, and is, in fact, why PvP is so different from PvE.
"Hey! You knocked generic cola all over your precious D20 books!"
ED: Now I know how Nancy Kerrigan felt: "Why...?!? Why...?!?"
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Really? Interesting. And where'd you get a Regen Tank? |
Originally Posted by Halon
I already play my SS blueside regen tank as if they were a scrapper or brute. The regen lets the output remain good but continuous. I loathe the concept of a tank per se. It's built on the fakeness of "taunt", which would be ignored by any foe with an IQ above room temperature, and is, in fact, why PvP is so different from PvE.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Part of this whole Brute vs. Tanker thing is many are coming at it from the 90% cap perspective, not noting the 75%ish starting point. Looking at the two AT's and assuming outside buffs is not a good starting point, nor is noting crazy tricked out IO builds when comparing something so broad as entire archetypes. Some builds can do exceedingly well, others do okay.
Can a brute play tanker when teamed with a sonic resonance, forcefield, and empathy team capping their resists and defense and making them regenerate like no tomorrow? Definitely. But with that crazy protection, you can toss your brute to the curb and tank as a blaster, dominator, any other such high damage archetype with better AoE's.
IO's? Yes, your brute can be an untouchable tanker with excellent damage. But you can just as easily (Or more easily) make an indestructible tankermind that not only tanks but buffs and rampages, or go through the trouble to make a perma-dom that can lock down even arch-villains, making 'tanking' unnecessary. Or make a Illusion controller with permanent phantom army, adding not just indestructible 'tanks,' but a support secondary and controls. The above considerations are "better" than both tankers and brutes.
...But wait, those are in the game, though some on a more rare basis... they can and have and will play on teams that also contain brutes and/or tanks.
...why are we here again? 
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Because people forget that L50, fully IO'd monster Brutes backed up by team buffs are not the whole of the matter. |
Originally Posted by Seldom
...why are we here again? |
I think any solution, if there is to be one, should focus on a more creative way for Tankers to utilize their superior durability - and make no mistake, they ARE more durable by a significant margin.
I really don't think more taunt is the answer, nor do I think nerfing Brutes based on performance post IO sets is the answer either.
This is a side conversation obviously but IMO the issue with Defenders is that Recharge Time and Buff Durations are not stats that are adjusted favorably for the AT the way Buff and Debuff Values are. The thing with most of the buff sets is that it's the presence of the buff, not the strength of it, that makes it good.
Most buff sets have key powers that are limited by recharge rate or buff duration. If we gave all Defender primary powers a discount to Recharge Time across all powers, and a duration boost, Defenders would be much more sought after in general.
Undoubtedly someone will find a set or two that wouldn't benefit as much from that change, but that's the way it is with all of the inherent powers (some Control sets are better at Containment, etc).
Yes
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Now there is an idea I could throw some support behind. It might even work the same way that vigilance works. That is, the more your team's health slips, the quicker your powers recharge as a defender. It would make more sense to me than giving an endurance discount as the team drops into the red, and it would also give the defender more of a chance to fix whatever might be ailing their party.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This is a side conversation obviously but IMO the issue with Defenders is that Recharge Time and Buff Durations are not stats that are adjusted favorably for the AT the way Buff and Debuff Values are. The thing with most of the buff sets is that it's the presence of the buff, not the strength of it, that makes it good.
Most buff sets have key powers that are limited by recharge rate or buff duration. If we gave all Defender primary powers a discount to Recharge Time across all powers, and a duration boost, Defenders would be much more sought after in general. Undoubtedly someone will find a set or two that wouldn't benefit as much from that change, but that's the way it is with all of the inherent powers (some Control sets are better at Containment, etc). |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
I mostly make concept toons based on what i would like to see in comicbooks , so its not a "replacement" issue im not loyal to any AT .
I would like to make a "evil tanker " because Ice just seems like it would make an awsome bad guy . I have a elec /sheild brute that im takeing to blue side "Shango" the affrican god of thunder because when i made him Heroes had no elec mele . so GR will open things up for me on a whole new lvl . And i think PvP will be a lot more fun wit good stalkers an evil blappers . I look forward to truly fair pvp no more complaints of over powerd blasters an cheap stalkers if something keeps beatin you up make one yourself 
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Oh im sorry is this a Who is better ( Tanks suck/Brutes can't tank) thread ? i must have taken a wrong turn.Oh well good luck with your trolling|
Originally Posted by Vitality
With GR coming...
How many of you will re-roll your Tank into a Brute? How many of you will re-roll your Brute into a Tank? How many of you will stick with your Tank blueside? How many of you will stick with your Brute redside? Why will you re-roll your Tank into a Brute? Why will you re-roll your Brute into a Tank? Why will you stick with your Tank blueside? Why will you stick with your Brute redside? |
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Do you bother to read through threads or look at dates?...or do you just post with a chip on your shoulder?
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Originally Posted by Redd Rumm
Oh im sorry is this a Who is better ( Tanks suck/Brutes can't tank) thread ? i must have taken a wrong turn.Oh well good luck with your trolling
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Better Inherents are the answer imo. Messing with buff/debuff/damage/defense scalars doesn't do anything but further blur the lines between ATs. The Inherents should be what defines and differentiates them.
Tankers' inherent is the only thing that lets them do their job, and is shared with another AT so they can do theirs. Otherwise, they already trade better survivability (caps--also shared--, health, and base values) for having less damage by having their primary and secondaries set the way they do.
Defenders have a pretty useless inherent...or at least one that is only really good as a set of training wheels. It also does not expand on the AT's role at all.
Corruptor damage gets a boost in damage beyond its 10% AT base difference in Scourge.
Dominators at this point have probably the sweetest and oddest setup of all ATs considering their now inherent dual nature of crowd control and damage, with the ability to restore their own endurance, provide reliable critical control, and have mez protection all from their inherent.
Besides Fury, Brutes get the higher caps, which is pretty much part of their inherent--Brutes seem to be about having limitless room to grow in the right battle conditions. Something that is somewhat exploitable on teams.
Even Stalkers have their new control element and crit boost on teams. It's actually pretty handy if you know how to leverage it.
Controllers also have an inherent that helps them outside of their main role in Containment, as well as helping their role.
Scrappers...need no help.
Blasters got revamped to help their role and have some kind of ability to counter mez, as well as a health boost to make them less glass cannons.
Masterminds are already unique.
All EATs have useful inherents alongside their unique structure.
While Defenders and Tankers aren't necessarily broken they could still use a look when considering their inherents.