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This thread is about QQ'ing about DP's crappy performance though, and you don't counter an arguement about underperforming with "but the set is fun and popular!".|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Currently, my Dual Pistols/Trick Arrow/ Nemesis Staff Defender (appropriately named The Red Gamut) is the most fun I've had on a character in a very long time, and that's genuinely all I care to contribute to an "Is this power set good enough?" discussion.
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Now I understand that you were replying to a specific point some other poster made about DP bringing in new costumers and bringing back old ones. Regarding this point you are indeed right that AP and Mercy are all full of pistoleros running around, which proves the set has indeed sparked interest in the customers. But while the set may've been succesful in bringing in some dough, it won't be able to *keep* the spark unless the performance issues are adressed.
The "new and shiny" thing doesn't last forever...
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I don't think the devs care to buff the set to AV/GM soloing capability.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
But while the set may've been succesful in bringing in some dough, it won't be able to *keep* the spark unless the performance issues are adressed.
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Not "a specific point" some "other poster" made. The thesis of the OP. In other words, the point of the thread.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Now I understand that you were replying to a specific point some other poster made about DP bringing in new costumers and bringing back old ones. Regarding this point you are indeed right that AP and Mercy are all full of pistoleros running around, which proves the set has indeed sparked interest in the customers. But while the set may've been succesful in bringing in some dough, it won't be able to *keep* the spark unless the performance issues are adressed.
The "new and shiny" thing doesn't last forever... |
Now, I can agree that if these suck in the long run, they'll lose interest. If the under performance issue becomes such that a notable number of people stop playing, I hope they recognize and address that. They've been pretty good about it, giving Blasters a new Inherent power and overhauling Stalkers entirely. I completely trust my Devs on this point.
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And no one said it had to be buffed up to that point. Words in mouth etc etc.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
I don't think the devs care to buff the set to AV/GM soloing capability.
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"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
Then what do you want? I was in beta, closed and open, and I read thread after thread adn post after post that QQed about DP and it's lack of damage. The numbers show this set lies near the middle of the pack for blasts set.
If you buff this set, then you have to buff all sets below it. Then you have to re-buff this set because it's no longer better but in the middle again.
rabblerabblerabble
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Funny you should mention her in relation to DP. She's got no talent at all, but is insanely good looking, just like DP. |
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Ah, the Kristin Kreuk Syndrom, or "KKS".
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The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Hmm... Dual Pistols... dual Q's.
Coincidence?
Although if I ever roll up a DP user, I'll make sure to put a note in the bio stating the pistol handles are inscribed with two Q's.
The QQ Kid rides again!
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The only times it lies near the middle are in SO grade damage comparisons using Incendiary and Standard Ammo. Incendiary gets competitive damage thanks to the rolling DoTs. Standard Ammo gets competitive damage because it get -res from Piercing Rounds (an attribute which does not apply when using any other ammunition). Cryo and Chem rounds actually do substantially less damage because they do not have any bonus damage, nor do they have -res, so all they have to work with is the base damage attributes of the set, which are only capable of less than average damage.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Then what do you want? I was in beta, closed and open, and I read thread after thread adn post after post that QQed about DP and it's lack of damage. The numbers show this set lies near the middle of the pack for blasts set.
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Now, consider this: if a set's base damage capabilities are supposed to be ignorant of damage type (because we don't penalize any damage type for being "better" like Fire or Energy, even though there are more enemies that have lower resistances for it) and ignorant of secondary effects (except for Sonic Blast, which would have to because it's throwing out -res), Dual Pistols has below average damage because the only times that the set is capable of achieving average damage is either by using its bonus damage secondary effect, which should allow it to achieve better than average damage because it's sacrificing secondary effect debuffs for additional damage, or its standard secondary effect, which only allows it to achieve average damage thanks to the specific mechanisms of a single power that serves as a force multiplier on a reasonably low recharge.
The best way to handle the entire thing would, honestly, be to just give PR's -res to every single ammo type, but I'm not entirely sure that's likely to happen. That way, ammo type only serves to control a small portion of your damage and which secondary effect you're generating rather than a great swathe of your damage capability that isn't even substantially better than simply sticking with your standard ammo.
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All thats true, though the reading I've been doing of Dual Pistols feedback seems to vary between "it's OK" and "not that good" |
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
When you have a new set- one that we haven't learned the "ins and outs" of... yet - and particularly if we have preconceived expectation for how an archetype is played- knowing it's numerically "not the worst" helps a LOT.
If you're sucking playing a set, there are two possibilities-- either the set is inherently flawed or you haven't found the tactics that make it function better. If there are other sets that are numerically WORSE, then you know that the problem isn't ENTIRELY within the set. Your tactics probably need some worse. If you hear others citing how strong the set is for THEM, then there may really be tactics that make the set shine (of course, it could also be that those people have different priorities, too) |
As I said, conversationally, saying that something isn't the worst isn't a great endorsement of the quality of the set. But anyways, I think you probably took my comment more seriously than it was intended.
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Well, then, I guess we're done here!|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
Man oh man, just imagine if the current detractors of DP had been in closed beta. They probably would have slit both their wrists in an emo fit of rage.
Trust me people, DP is a lot better now than it was in closed beta. The Change Ammo power had this lame push-swap-push-swap-push-swap function rather than the cool toggles it has now. Also, the damage had been really, really anemic then and the recharge times and endurance costs painfully long and costly respectively. Then, a few hours before open beta, it got a needed boost and the set I'd say has rocked ever since. So if you think its performance is poor now, I'd love to see how you would have responded to the way it used to be.
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Oh god the '*click*...ok that's cryo...didn't want that...*click*..that's fire...I wanted toxic...*click* FINALLY'| The Change Ammo power had this lame push-swap-push-swap-push-swap function rather than the cool toggles it has now. |
And it took what was it, over 10 seconds to cycle through them all, 2 second recharge and a 2 second animation time...
...oh and it didn't stick around when you zoned either so you had to go through the whole thing again each time you entered a mission...
I just came in to point out that one of the tags for this thread is "pew pew my qq" and that sounds dirty.
Carry on.
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Nobody's saying it should be, but I also don't think the set should be so near the bottom (or right at the bottom).|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I don't think the devs care to buff the set to AV/GM soloing capability.
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DP can boost its damage potential in some scenarios using Swap Ammo, while other sets can boost their damage in ALL scenarios using Aim. Swap Ammo can raise damage potential up to 30%, while Aim has an uptime of about 30% on a modest recharge build, so it kinda evens out.
The set is inferior to Radiation Blast and Archery (just to name a couple examples) in both ST AND AoE damage, while offering no other significant advantage to make up for it (and no, Swap Ammo's gimmick really does not make up for the lack of Aim)
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
Funny you should mention her in relation to DP. She's got no talent at all, but is insanely good looking, just like DP.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post It's already been proven numerically to not be the worst blast set. |
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Awesome! just because it's not the worst I guess it means it's alright! yeehaw!
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Dual Pistols: It's not the worst set.
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While this is said tongue-in-cheek, it's a sad thing that's it's true |
Originally Posted by Clouded
It's common knowledge in CoH/V that if a new set isn't better than the rest of the sets for that AT, then that new set automatically "sucks."
C'mon people, get with it!  |
So by that reasoning all sets but fire are inferior since fire has the highest single target and aoe damage?
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Why not?|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Nobody's saying it should be, but I also don't think the set should be so near the bottom (or right at the bottom).
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Yes, I am serious.
The sets will never be perfectly balanced. Given that the existing sets are (IMO) balanced well enough to be getting on with, any new set should fall in the middle somewhere, and not be worse than the weakest or better than the strongest.
As long as those qualifications are met, it's fine.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Swap Ammo can raise damage potential up to 30%, while Aim has an uptime of about 30% on a modest recharge build, so it kinda evens out.
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I completely agree, except that|
Originally Posted by Paladin_Musashi
The sets will never be perfectly balanced. Given that the existing sets are (IMO) balanced well enough to be getting on with, any new set should fall in the middle somewhere, and not be worse than the weakest or better than the strongest.
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Originally Posted by Paladin_Musashi
As long as those qualifications are met, it's fine.
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Yes they are. We've already established that DP isn't the weakest set. As long as it's neither the weakest nor the strongest, it's fine. Even if it's the second weakest.
Other sets that have weaker damage than DP at least shine in other situations. Take for example Dark Blast: it has no T3 single target blast and no Aim, but it has a whole lot of utility, including debuffs that increase survivability (particularly effective on defenders), control and even a self heal. Now that IS versatility.
It may've been established as not the worst set (I'm gonna chuckle everytime I hear that now) by number crunchers who are distracted by the set's new and shiny factor, but you know what they say about number crunching...
The numbers are all that really matter. Also, DP has a ton of utility. The debuffs are amazing for both Corruptors and Defenders, and help a little for Blasters. And it has a hold, which is pretty rare on a blast set, actually.
The debuffs are far from amazing (practically and numerically), stacking them becomes difficult because of the set's looooong animations, and the T1 blast not having a secondary effect with different ammo types. The description of the set itself even states so when it says that "This versatility comes at the cost of slightly weaker secondary effects when compared to other power sets".
And single target hard controls are not that uncommon at all in blast sets: Ice and Electric have a hold, Archery, Assault Rifle, Sonic, Psychic and Radiation Blast have a stun.
Stun != Hold. The former is significantly inferior to the latter.
And the debuffs are amazing because of the fact that you can choose which to use. And stackable -dmg is not something that is available from most anywhere else.
Doesn't really matter what you're about to say, because the entirety of my statement was that it was popular.
I have no interest in arguing whether the set is "good" enough. Therein lay madness and pursuit of balance, a concept that is virtually abstract in an abstractly virtual world. There will always be a set under-powered according to some, and over-powered according to others. Even though numbers certainly provide better weaponry when joining this argument, it is, at the end of the day, mostly perspective. *
Currently, my Dual Pistols/Trick Arrow/ Nemesis Staff Defender (appropriately named The Red Gamut) is the most fun I've had on a character in a very long time, and that's genuinely all I care to contribute to an "Is this power set good enough?" discussion.
Edit: And in the sake of full disclosure, I don't pay attention to numbers, because I tend to Barbie doll it and make things up as I go in a fight. No idea what numbers I'm putting out or taking in. If I'm still alive at the end, I math'd the **** out of them enough to get by.