Go to Redside.

Purple.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

well if personal experience is enough, then for SF madness on freedom this past saturday, I bought 3 lvl 37 ruin A/D/R pieces for 10k to finish frankenslotting my blaster for the event.

i know, i know, "theyre like 1 inf on blue side blah blah blah." The point of the matter is that I didnt have to play the market for what I bought, and that was all "bi it nao"

Emphasis mine.

That has what to do with redside market?

At the levels you mentioned earlier (or any level), you may or may not have recipes "right nao" blueside, either. I know from looking myself while frankenslotting for things. There are more 50s in game and fewer people playing through at low levels, I think, as lower level recipes seem to be around less than they used to be.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove with this, anyway. I haven't really seen anyone say that the redside market is stronger or more active than blueside's, as that's pretty much a given for anyone paying attention. All most of us are saying is that you can get things on the redside market: you just have to be patient (and for some things, it's cheaper, too).

There are some people flaming, but there are other people discussing things with you. You do seem to have a bit of a grudge yourself, so moderate a bit, and run with what other people are saying.

I note that you have pretty much ignored everything I said to focus on the "flamers," so there would be a starting point for you right there. Unless you want your focus to be on "you vs. everyone else." Can't help you then.

Guess I kinda stooped to feeding the trolls. I haven't really directed anything to you (though the recipe info was indirectly a response to you as well) because what you've said has pretty much been reasonable and polite. I have issues with people saying the red market is fine (which is a matter of opinion) and that I'm a crappy player because I don't enjoy dealing with the flaws of it. Oddly, Catwhoorg has pretty much the same opinion I do about the red market, yet has not had a flamer dogpile happen for it (one advantage of being a resident "board celeb" I suppose). So Catwhoorg is a poor player and doesn't know how to use the market right? Clearly, that's the only explanation for people who don't enjoy the state of the redside market.

At any rate, your posts have been read, processed and appreciated. I have a history of enjoying a strong debate, and the tone of my posts should not mislead anyone to the mistaken thought I have any sort of emotional investment in this argument. I have been known to put forth some hyperbole, and argue my point strongly, but when it comes down to it, we're all just playing the game and I really don't much care aside from being slightly disappointed with the state of play redside and quite disappointed yet unsurprised by the number of people who seem to think personal attacks add something of value to their side of the argument.


It's not a need to be right so much as an almost OCD need to correct people misinterpreting or misrepresenting things I have said, or trying to set up straw man arguments. As for my investment... I'm a pretty passable typist, none of my posts have taken more than a couple minutes to whip up. Doubtless it takes longer to read the thread than the time I have put in posting in it. I've already stated in this post my thoughts and motivations in posting, so no need to be relaxing any further on my part. As for the avatar... I've found that most internet "discussions" are on par with punching yourself in the junk right from the get go.

corr, my mistake. happens with enough blue label.

*edit*
If you would but notice my use of the acronym "SF" as opposed to "TF" and use it to infer that the post was about red side, instead of fixating on one [misplaced] word of a post.

Eh, I figured you meant redside character of some point. Not enough giving the benefit of the doubt to people going on in this thread, I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humility ...I have issues with people saying the red market is fine (which is a matter of opinion) and that I'm a crappy player because I don't enjoy dealing with the flaws of it...

That's exactly why you were treated as such in this discussion. You've pretty much ignored all my posts as well, but I'll go ahead and take a stab at that particular statement.

You say you have issues with people saying the red market is fine, and according to you, that's a matter of opinion. Then why do you have issues with us, who believe the red market is fine?

You, very precisely stated that the red side market is a "clearly flawed" system. Sadly, you deleted your own post, and apparently the moderators deleted my post, which responded to that statement.

There is a difference between saying "In my opinion, the red side market is flawed, and I don't use it." and saying "Red side market is clearly flawed."

The difference is that the first statement is simply your opinion, and nothing more. If you don't enjoy the red side market, then thumbs up to you! It's your game, enjoy it the way you want.

But in the second case, which is the route you have been taking, you are literally calling everyone stupid for not seeing things from your perspective. You're implicitly insulting people without knowing it, and then you get annoyed that they flame you, and then call them trolls?

Then, to make things worse, you start building a flawed logical argument based on very selective evidence that differs from the experience of many red side players, and you claim this concludes that the red side market is "clearly flawed"?

Nevertheless, as I said, I really don't care about your view of the market. I'm just trying to state why you should be expecting to be flamed and "trolled" when you step on people's toes.

Sadly, you'll probably ignore this post as well.

Funny, who would have thought that violating the forum ToS with flaming and personal attacks could get a post removed. You may find my posts abrasive, but they don't violate the rules.

Flaming and personal attacks is what makes them trolls, not disagreeing with me.

I should never expect to be flamed and trolled. It's a violation of board rules. The only rule in the list before this one is that you must have a CoX account to post. Just because you disagree with what I've said or find my tone abrasive does not in fact give you leave to post like that. The fact that your post was removed is concrete evidence of such.

The red market is clearly flawed, as I've already stated. Don't agree with me? Good for you. The market however, is clearly flawed. Presenting your anecdotal experience does nothing to change that. You have some empirical evidence otherwise I would be happy to look at it. Until then, I maintain that the red market is flawed. Feel free to maintain that the red market isn't flawed.

I haven't taken issue with people saying the market is fine. I've taken issue with people saying "you're wrong, the market is fine". A fine, but important distinction. Because until you provide some sort of hard evidence, I'm no more wrong than you are. Of course... that's a bit of a paradox since you are wrong! Lighten up man, I'm not trying to piss in your wheaties or steal all your ebil marketeer inf. I've already said I tend to toss out hyperbole, no need to get all worked up over it.

One other thing to mention... we already know that your word is suspect and cannot be trusted. You made a statement that you have read and agreed to follow the rules of these forums while using them. You have already broken that word in this thread as evidenced by the removed post. I point this out in reference to statements that my trustworthiness in regard to my red market test may be in question. Please don't take it as any sort of attack, because it is not. It is simply intended to demonstrate that while the quality of my word may be unknown, there is solid evidence that yours cannot be trusted due to your inability to honor the contract you digitally signed to get access to these forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humility Funny, who would have thought that violating the forum ToS with flaming and personal attacks could get a post removed. You may find my posts abrasive, but they don't violate the rules. -Snipped to save space- One other thing to mention... we already know that your word is suspect and cannot be trusted. You made a statement that you have read and agreed to follow the rules of these forums while using them. You have already broken that word in this thread as evidenced by the removed post. I point this out in reference to statements that my trustworthiness in regard to my red market test may be in question. Please don't take it as any sort of attack, because it is not. It is simply intended to demonstrate that while the quality of my word may be unknown, there is solid evidence that yours cannot be trusted due to your inability to honor the contract you digitally signed to get access to these forums.

Wait, what? xD

My post was removed not because I was trolling you, but because it was quoting your post, which you removed. When someone posts something, and another quotes them, and later the original post is deleted, the moderators delete the posts responding to it as well to avoid confusion. xD

All I was doing, was hoping to point a loop hole in your statements, and when you respond me with THAT, I just have to say I'm speechless. "Clearly" I am wrong. Please continue your firm, absolutely correct belief that the red side market is flawed. How dare we ask you what you are asking me (to provide empirical evidence). Have a nice day!

Wow, way to completely miss an attempt at a chuckle man. You're taking it way too seriously. The point was to be over the top and accentuate how ridiculous the whole thing is. The market is flawed, because it does not suit my needs in having midrange recipes. You continue to tell me that I AM WRONG, yet are completely unwilling to offer any proof, what kind of response did you expect? I don't care about proving anything, I care about playing the game and having fun without planning out everything I do 53 levels in advance, red market is flawed for that kind of a playstyle. I tested it, I proved it to myself and took up play on blueside where casual IO'ing has been easy and relatively inexpensive. So if you would like to continue to tell me I am wrong, kindly offer some sort of evidence. You seem to want to take everything I write as completely serious though I have repeatedly stated that it is not, and then tell me to calm down.

Relax, smile, have a beer/soda. My saying your market is flawed isn't going to somehow ruin your gaming experience. As for your removed post I apologize for the confusion, I was unaware of that policy specifically. As I said, it was intended only to show a point, but if you want to use it as an excuse to get all huffy, by all means do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humility Wow, way to completely miss an attempt at a chuckle man. You're taking it way too seriously. The point was to be over the top and accentuate how ridiculous the whole thing is. The market is flawed, because it does not suit my needs in having midrange recipes. You continue to tell me that I AM WRONG, yet are completely unwilling to offer any proof, what kind of response did you expect? I don't care about proving anything, I care about playing the game and having fun without planning out everything I do 53 levels in advance, red market is flawed for that kind of a playstyle. I tested it, I proved it to myself and took up play on blueside where casual IO'ing has been easy and relatively inexpensive. So if you would like to continue to tell me I am wrong, kindly offer some sort of evidence. You seem to want to take everything I write as completely serious though I have repeatedly stated that it is not, and then tell me to calm down. Relax, smile, have a beer/soda. My saying your market is flawed isn't going to somehow ruin your gaming experience. As for your removed post I apologize for the confusion, I was unaware of that policy specifically. As I said, it was intended only to show a point, but if you want to use it as an excuse to get all huffy, by all means do so.

It really is amusing to me how you keep stating that you're not serious and all, and yet you think I'm sitting here raging over this. I really couldn't care any less about what you think of Black Market.

You're just so full of irony, sweety.

Note the extra emoticons used to express the mood of this message.

As I don't play on Freedom or know what events are going on, I assumed you were talking about the initials of an event. If you had said Strike Force Madness, I wouldn't have been confused.

I didn't fixate on one misplaced word, I was confused and wanted clarity. However I seem to be a bad guy for that.

when I put my foot in my mouth and get called on it I try to pull the "just kidding" card, too.

no, you arent, I was also confused:
as to the nature of your post.

there is a lot of trolling/flaming going on here, so I took it as a somewhat snarky remark, thank you for clarifying.

From what I've seen in this thread so far is that you're the only person who has presented anecdotal experience. I'm still waiting to see these overpriced circuit boards of yours.

Actually, it isn't the circuit boards or other common salvage - the prices on those fluctuate so much that all it really takes is some patience to avoid paying to much. The real problem is the mid-range IO recipes. It's not just the price its the lack of recipes for sale. Just like humility, I tend to like to IO my characters out in the mid levels. I generally start putting together sets at L30 and every couple of levels I will try to put together another decent set. Somethings I can get easily and cheaply, if not as cheaply as blueside (crushing impact, thunderstrike) other things are difficult, expesive or even impossible. Try putting together a full set of glimpse of the abyss or malaises illusions - you can do it at L50, but in the mid 30's it is extremely expensive and sometimes impossible. While the same sets are hard to get blueside they are never as expensive or take as long to get.

This is complicated by the low merit earning ability on redside. Folk can claim that you earn merits just as fast redside as blueside but that assumes you are willing to grind merits in flashback or run tons of ITF's or LGTF's. Just playing through story arcs as you level at a normal pace (soloing at Level +0, x1 players) I can earn enough merits blueside to buy a miracle or numina's unique by L30 and by level 40 have enough to get a second one. Redside it takes until nearly 40 just to get one and the merit earing ability of a character plummets after that (unless you go run ITF's all the time).

If you want numbers on this check with folks on the market forum - most of the experts there will probably back up humlities claim. I don't have the time or energy to gather data to prove a point that I already know from the experience of playing mutliple characters on both sides and trying to IO them out. My redside characters have FAR more cash available but can do far less with it than my blueside characters.

Then you completely missed the point of that statement. The point being that the red market does not get enough traffic to quickly recover from that kind of price fixing. It will recover, but nowhere nearly as quick as the much higher traffic blue market. The point was, red is MUCH more vulnerable to that, and takes much longer to recover.

But yeah, taken out of context with no point of reference it really adds a lot to your point again... wait... what was your point exactly? I must have missed it because all I saw in your post was basically "you're wrong because I say so". I really am curious, what was your point in posting except to bring up an irrelevant point, out of context, and further drag on a pointless discussion that had pretty much ended.

Personally, my merit income/time from arcs is way, way, way higher redside than blue. The difference is that most of redside's non-zone arcs aren't horrible strings of kill-alls in ten different zones handed out by people who want me to Rescue Lawyers from Devouring Earth and Talk to Crey's Folly Security Chief before they'll give me anything of value. Arc rewards only matter if you can tolerate them long enough to get there!

Are you grinding the same arcs over and over again in oro? My comparison comes from simple levelling and doing the available story arcs. Yes, they are a bit annoying blueside but you get SOO much more for them. I don't even do ALL the arcs blueside and I still pick up a litle over 100 merits by level 20 and another 100-150 or so by L30. Redside you can't even come close to that, although the lower levels have the best earning potential.

Now, I have finally broken down and started grinding some arc's redside in oro and you are correct that I can stand repeating the redside arcs a little better, but only a little better. However the fact is that the someone who follows a fairly standard, new guyish levelling scheme redside is going to earn a lot less merits than the equivalent new guy levelling up blueside. Which cuts down on random rolls (especially in midlevel) and cuts down on rare midlevel recipes, which was the original point of my post. Someone who is grinding merit's is likely to be doing it on a L50 and making random rolls at that level,which will produce only recipes at the highest level of the type, which is frequently level 50.

That's my point. The blueside arcs are so annoying (except the zone-specific ones, which tend to be more comparable to the ones villains get) that I avoid them at every opportunity, so my villains usually end up ahead anyway. Not exactly the topic under consideration, but still.

What I'm actually saying is the burden of proof lies on solely... you.