What would you take if stamina didn't exist?

Let's have a little thought experiment. Imagine every character got a bonus to endurance recovery that scaled by level such that by level 25 or so it was equivalent to 3-slotted stamina. Now also imagine the stamina power no longer existed. What powers would you add to your builds that you normally wouldn't, now that you don't have to take stamina?

Points of interest:

-I'd like to hear this for all kinds of AT's/builds.

-Standard answer might be "More from my primary and secondary"...yes, but what about builds where you don't have a use for any more primary/secondary powers or already took almost all of them anyway? What pool powers would you consider that you normally wouldn't?

-Would you still take Swift/Hurdle/Health? What if the entire fitness pool disappeared?

-I am NOT an endgame player. My highest toon is 43, and I have many many in the 10-30 range, so I'm coming at this from a leveling perspective. I'd like to hear more than just "power X, because then I can slot set Y for bonus Z".

-Another minor question: What is the most FUN (not *best*, most *FUN*) build you've ever played without stamina?

The pool I'd take would vary based on AT.

Most of my blasters (exception are the /MM blasters) have Fitness, Medicine, Speed and Leaping. I'd probably still take fitness for hurdle and/or swift and for health. (I like massive recharge which typically requires massive recovery. Health typically gets a Numinas +/+ and Miracle + even with 3 slotted stamina.)

If the fitness pool was eliminated from the game I'd probably pick up Leadership or Stealth pools instead.

If powers and IOs that granted additional recovery weren't available or were exceedingly rare I'd have left the game by now.

The most fun I ever had playing a toon without stamina (again this is other than a toon that has Drain Psyche or Power Sink available) would be a Sonic/Ice/Elec Blaster. Sonic has very long animations and some of /Ice's powers are long animating also. This makes it easier to go without massive recovery. Sonic/Ice/Elec also provides excellent mitigation giving you the time required to defeat the mobs without being defeated even when your recovery and recharge is too low.

On a lot of my characters whose builds are very tight I'd take more of the fun powers I wanted but couldn't fit in, (Fallout on my Rad, Inferno on my Dark, Burn on my SS/FA, Inertial Reduction on my kin).

I'd probably take Leadership pool powers on more characters, or Fighting if I don't have it already and build for more defense.

I'd probably take Hurdle and Heath anyway though, for maneuverability and the Heal IO set uniques. More regen is always nice.

Good Question.

I'd probably still take Swift if it was available.

If each character could open up a new pool, Leadership and Fighting are the two I'd consider for pretty much anyone.
Some characters have odd situational powers in their sets I'd try out - my latest FF Defender couldn't squeeze Detention Field in once again, I'd defeinitely like that.

Nice topic!

It honestly varies far more for me by powersets than by AT, and I'm not going to list conditions for every powerset.

-It is never really a question of taking more or less from the primary/secondary because I always simply take what I want from there, anyhow. They are my first priority, always. There are rare times where I may take a power I'd rarely ever use, that I may skip during a standard build as outlined by current rules, but those situations are usually trumped by liking a pool or epic power better.

-Would I still take the fitness pool? On toons where regeneration rate is important to me, I would. If I needed even more recovery (such as a set like Storm) then I would take health then as well. On Blasters I would for the added mobility.

-Leadership would be taken on those toons where it was most desirable. This would likely fall by AT, with the classic "support" ATs taking it slightly more often, and the "damage" ATs actually taking it.

I'd make the decision on a character by character basis.

This is a good question because I've been trying to avoid taking the fitness pool lately, and it has been very difficult. Someone recently was trying to figure out the theoretical maximum leveling speed and said that Endurance was the key to max speed. Unfortunately, I agree with that.

I would rarely take Health, Swift, or Hurdle. Although with Hurdle and Swift are nice with Ninja run to not have to take another travel power.

My builds always feel tight and I'd always be able to find something to take. It would be nice to feel like you could take some of the powers that are helpful only some of the time and more situational.

Something to think about for the Dev's if they read this. With the way slotting works in the game. It probably isn't too powerful to give people more powers without giving them more slots.

I'd have to start playing Kinetics again. Everyone would be even more mad for speed boost and having transference is the only way I could live with controllers' heavy endurance usage. If the +recovery procs still existed I would take health as well. If not, then no.

The main sadly would take Conserve Power and Power Surge (elec/nrg blaster) because I'd have such issues with endurance.

I've always wanted to toy with the Teleport pool and boost range though...

I would take the Leadership pool much more and would take some of those situational powers that I currently skip to make room for Stamina. Some I might only use once a week, but how cool to have it when you need it?

I would still take Swift for the running speed increase (at least at lower levels, although I might /respec out of it at higher levels) because I can't stand "slow motion" Sprint.

I would likely still take Health. I haven't slotted the procs others are mentioning in the thread, and probably still would not because when/if they drop, they would likely be even more valuable and would sell for beaucoup bux.

I would probably tend to pick up either Stealth/Invisibility or Aid Other/Aid Self if I had a spare Pool Power pick, especially on squshier characters. On the sturdier ones, I would probably pick up the Leadership pool (currently used on my defenders only).

All that being said, I have several characters who use only 2 Power Pools because I take most of their Pri/Sec powers and many Power Pool powers don't fit them.

The only character I have taken fairly high without Stamina was a Katana/Regen Scrapper, who still took the Fitness pool for Swift/Hurdle.

NightshadeLegree said this:

Quote:

One thing I won't do, on any character, is to postpone taking other fun powers in order to be able to take Stamina at 20, so most of my characters only end up with it in the mid to late 20s (except for Bots/FF, which I can't imagine ever needing it. Standing around watching your minions do all the work doesn't cost a lot of End.)

Which I agree with wholeheartedly (except for the bots/FF stuff, since I don't have a high level MM).

I honestly think that learning to manage your Blue Bar is as important as learning to manage your Green Bar. Many of my lowbie characters stop to use Rest because their Health is low, not because their Endurance is low. I can't support the many suggestions that have come up to eliminate the need to build Stamina into characters or to make Endurance Recovery greater in the lower levels. If that happens, why not just go ahead and give all characters endless HP to go with their now endless Endurance? I guess I don't really have a problem with using energy management in a game as a balance mechanism. What could be substituted for it?

I'd find my builds a lot easier to make, without nearly always having to cram in swift, health, stamin at 16, 18, 20, just so I can actually function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I'd take presence pool. A lot of it.

Taunting stuff with squishies is hilarious. Yelling at them until they cower even more so.

Defender: "I AM BUBBLE/ELECTRIC DEFENDER!"
Skull: "whaa? Get that guy!"
Defender: "PHEAR ME!"
Skull: "Oh noes!"

A whole lot of blues...
A pocket kin

So, I've done a lot of thinking in the past about what I'd do with an extra power or a few additional slots. My main Elec/Elec Brute is the only character I've invested enough love into to really care.

Here's what she's got right now.
- Primary: Havoc Punch, Build Up, Thunderstrike, Chain Induction & Lightning Rod
- Secondary: All of it
- Pool 1 (Flight): Air Superiority & Fly
- Pool 2 (Fitness): Swift, Health & Stamina
- Pool 3 (Speed): Hasten
- Pool 4 (Fighting): Boxing & Tough
- Patron Pool (Mu Mastery): Mu Lightning & Ball Lightning

With a fairly high +Recharge IO build, Stamina's already pretty close to redundant. Power Sink recharges in 22.2 seconds (16.7 with Hasten). The only reason I still use Stamina is that I prefer to use Power Sink offensively as a mitigation tool, whether or not I actually need to refresh my own endurance.

Even if it were rendered completely obsolete for me though, I'd still keep Swift and Health. Swift, along with Lightning Reflexes and a couple lucky +Movement Speed IO buffs that were conveniently in other valuable sets, means I can currently cap Fly Speed with only a single 50 Flight SO in Fly, and still have a 37.9 Mph ground speed with Sprint, which is just fast enough to rip from one spawn to the next on a mission map without losing Fury, but not so fast that I lose control and get stuck on objects, like with Super Speed. Adding Ninja Run to that puts me less than 1 Mph below my capped flight speed. And Health, well... my IO priorities have been +Recharge, +Regen and +HP, depending on how convenient each was to obtain for a given power type. Not only does Health accept a lot of great +Regen IOs, it provides a ton of it itself. Health by itself is worth the Fitness pool for me.

So this means my options are pretty well set. Let's look at my choices!

From the primary.
- Charged Brawl: A good quick power, but wholly redundant at this point.
- Jacob's Ladder: A very tempting option. A part of me weeps that I have to pass over any of my AoE options. When I get the veteran reward that lets me pick up my travel power without a prerequisite, this is probably replacing Air Superiority (which was once the cornerstone of my mitigation, but now I can survive quite comfortably without it).
- Taunt: I'm a mostly solo Brute. And when I team, I manage Aggro just fine via overwhelming AoE damage. After I alpha with Build Up + Lightning Rod, most critters stay pissed at me until they're dead. If Brute Taunt debuffed more than just the initial target's range, like the Tanker version does, I'd be a lot more tempted by it.
- Lightning Clap: Heh... no.

From the secondary.
- Oh, yeah, I already took everything. And I don't even have anything in my secondary I'm craving another slot for, that I could scavenge from what Stamina currently has (Four slots for the Performance Shifter EndMod, EndMod/Recharge, EndMod/Accuracy & Chance for + End).

From Pool 1 (Flight).
- Hover: Don't need it. Using it in combat would shut off Grounded.
- Group Fly: ... right.

From Pool 2 (Fitness).
- Hurdle: Nah. My ground speed is already really good, and I don't like having to bunny hop to get the best use out of this.

From Pool 3 (Speed).
- Flurry: On a Brute? This is the most Fury-inefficient attack available. No thanks.
- Super Speed: Fun, but Ninja Run has already scratched this itch for me.
- Whirlwind: No, for the exact same reason I skipped Lightning Clap. I like my enemies close enough that I can hit them back.

From Pool 4 (Fighting).
- Kick: Absolutely not. I'd drop Boxing in a heartbeat if I could, too.
- Weave: Eh. Maybe. But I haven't prioritized +Defense at all in my build, so I just wouldn't get that much from it.

From Patron Pool (Mu Mastery).
- Electrifying Fences: I dislike this power for a lot of reasons. The radius is small, the damage is low, and it prevents Knockback from working, which is one of my main sources of mitigation. Still, it's an electrical AoE, and I'm tempted by that. Maybe.
- Static Discharge: I also dislike this power. Its damage is lower, and Cones just don't get along well with Fury. It's also got a longer cast time than anything in my arsenal but Thunderstrike and Lightning Rod, both of which hurl out a big enough wad of damage to justify the wait. But again, it's an electrical AoE, and therefore earns some points.
- Summon Striker: For concept reasons, I like the idea of this power, I really do. But it becomes available so late that I'd have to make some really big changes in order to slot it properly. Nothing I could do would make it acceptably useful to me without negatively impacting other powers. No thanks.

So our contenders appear to be Jacob's Ladder, Electrifying Fences, Static Discharge and Weave. None of which I really want that badly, or else I'd have sprung for a Miracle IO and a few more +Recovery bonuses and dropped Stamina already.

So what about other power pools? Anything out there that I'd take if I could pick up a 5th pool?
- Concealment: Nope. I have yet to encounter an enemy in this game I'd rather hide from than fight.
- Leadership: No thanks. Again, I mostly solo. And dropping Stamina to replace with some of the most costly toggles in the game sounds especially unwise.
- Leaping: Good powers, but they just don't fit this character's concept, or add anything mechanically that she hasn't been able to arrange for elsewhere. Every so often, a Bane Spider in Grandville will hit me with a web grenade while I'm flying, and I'll half-heartedly wish for Combat Jumping, but it's never more than a few seconds of irritation.
- Medicine: I nearly cried tears of joy when the change from Conserve Power to Energize let me drop this pool (and pick up Hasten). Nothing could force me to invest in it again.
- Presence: LOL, no. You can't even talk me into getting the effective taunt from my primary. And the Fear powers are pretty pathetic these days.
- Teleportation: I hate trying to use Teleport as a travel power, and nothing else in this pool fits my playstyle.
- Other Patron Pools: Nobody does AoEs as well as Mu Mastery. Leviathan Mastery comes close, but it's all Ranged Cones, which I hate as a Brute. And anyway, even if Mu Mastery sucked at AoEs, it's an Elec/Elec character. For me, concept trumps efficiency (although I certainly aim for efficiency within the bounds allowed by the concept).

So, after all of that analysis (and a big thanks to my employers for wanting to have me in the office today, but not actually having anything for me to do, so I could sit around writing crap like this that no one could ever possibly care about), it appears that the answer is Jacob's Ladder. If Stamina weren't an option, I'd pick up Jacob's Ladder, and just keep Air Superiority even after that Veteran Reward gives me the option to skip it. In a perfect Electrical Brute AoE favoring world though, I'd drop AS for JL, drop Stamina for Electrifying Fences, and drop Boxing for Static Discharge. Everything else would stay as it is, and I'd be happy knowing that the only powers I have left that can only hit one person at a time are Havoc Punch, Mu Lightning, and various self-targeted buffs.

tl;dr - My build already has darn near everything I want, and more of several kinds of things than I need. If Stamina wasn't an option, I'd just slap on more redundant AoEs.

Some of us don't use it, actually, and we manage just fine.