my understanding is that your working for vanguard, and this group of longbow is doing some shady operation inside RWZ without vanguard authorization
From the point of view of the Freedom Corp, you lost a lot of your cred by joining Vanguard, which works with villains and is not transparent to them. For all they know, Vanguard could, at any moment, be compromised by the villains and work out a deal with the invaders.
Would you trust any organization that allowed Lex Luthor to be a member and prevented you from monitoring what they're doing?
The forced elements of the arc are like the forced elements of almost every other arc and almost every computerized RPG. Programming an open environment that allows for lots of branching story lines is not easy and would add gobs of development time. Also, CoH didn't even have the tech for a branching story line until recently (except for pass/fail missions).
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while that's true enough, it seems like it would be simple enough to make Tendaji a non-required objective. and I take your point on the Lex Luther thing, but don't these longbow have direct orders from Miss liberty?
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She's the problem. She's a control freak and is rabidly anti-Arachnos*, and thus, anti-Vanguard. When the rogue element in Vanguard confirms her suspicions, she has a very clear in-game rationale for ordering the attacks on Vanguard. The Wiki has the texts of the complete arc.|
Originally Posted by DoctorParadox
while that's true enough, it seems like it would be simple enough to make Tendaji a non-required objective. and I take your point on the Lex Luther thing, but don't these longbow have direct orders from Miss liberty?
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*Even though she thinks great-uncle Stephan can be saved... and Dominatrix, too. There's a little multiple-storyteller fight going on about her attitude toward villains.
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Also, Freedom Corp is a private company, I believe we're all registered with the Federal Bureau of Superpowered Affairs. We are, in essence licensed bounty hunters.|
Originally Posted by DoctorParadox
while that's true enough, it seems like it would be simple enough to make Tendaji a non-required objective. and I take your point on the Lex Luther thing, but don't these longbow have direct orders from Miss liberty?
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Miss Liberty's pet organization isn't Freedom Corp, it's Longbow. They tend to be a bunch of rabid idealists that manage to be worse at the ends justifying the means than Wyvern is.
Even then, Longbow is another private organization.
Vanguard is UN sanctioned and the Rogue Isles, much as we heroes don't like to hear it, is a member nation and thus forces are accepted from its ranks.
Miss Liberty's urge to shut down Vanguard is rather like Bruce Wayne and his army of trainees (admit it people, he's no longer quite the lone hero he used to be) insisting that Interpol be dismantled.
However, there is a history in comics and comic roleplay of UN super-groups having friction with American super-groups.
Granted, my first thought comes from the Champions Paper and Pencil game (HERO system is awesome even if the MMO based on Champs is disappointing).
Ask any classic player of Champions about how well PRIMUS and UNTIL get along and you'll hear quite simply "they don't".
This parallels the real life tendency (at least portrayed in media, which are, granted Hollywood inaccuracies) of American law enforcement to dislike Interpol.
Americans have a tendency toward Isolationist thinking (quite the contrary from the Imperialism most accuse us of) and trying to keep the world out of our business.
So, the FBI - Interpol rivalry is naturally mirrored in comics.
Vanguard v Longbow is simply another extension of that.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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You're referring to Hero Corps. Unless I'm mistaken, Freedom Corps is formed by Statesman, and Liberty is heading the Longbow arm of FC.
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Originally Posted by Lycanus
Also, Freedom Corp is a private company, I believe we're all registered with the Federal Bureau of Superpowered Affairs. We are, in essence licensed bounty hunters.
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We have branching storylines now? where? How? By whom?
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Also, CoH didn't even have the tech for a branching story line until recently (except for pass/fail missions).
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I don't know... BioWare games have traditionally been very good about allowing all manner of solutions to most problems, often going as far as to let you avoid a boss fight if you're good (or bad) enough to do it. And the interesting thing is... Let's take Mass Effect 2 just for the sake of example. The interesting thing is that stories don't actually vary by much in terms of storyline. You still follow through the actions, plot point by plot point, only specific events that don't alter the storyline by much change.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The forced elements of the arc are like the forced elements of almost every other arc and almost every computerized RPG. Programming an open environment that allows for lots of branching story lines is not easy and would add gobs of development time. Also, CoH didn't even have the tech for a branching story line until recently (except for pass/fail missions).
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It's actually kind of like Kain's theory on time travel and the reason why neither he nor Raziel can really change anything, in that time alters unimportant events or remove the errant, restricting change to the immediate future, but ensuring the timeline down the line remains the same. "Drop a rock in a stream and the water just flows around it."
I think that, when people talk about "branching story arcs," I believe they're going about it in exactly the WRONG way, in that we don't need story arcs that split off into numerous independent, unrelated paths so much as we need story arcs that follow the same path, but give you choices to make as to how to handle it. Again, Mass Effect 2 does this right - at one point you meet a cornered hostage holding a gun to you, and you can either shoot him, or risk getting shot until he calms down. To some extent, we already do have this in our own arcs in the form of failable missions, in that win or fail, the story goes on, but the method by which you got there changes ever so slightly.
What I feel we need is the ability to make decisions in a more civilised manner than just letting a timer run our or a hostage get killed, which is to say make decisions by being presented with options to choose from in real time. Add this, and add some kind of summary or effect notification at the end of the arc or in the souvenir and we're set. Again, Mass Effect does this in the form of messages to your private terminal from people thanking you for saving people. I can't see why a souvenir can't have that sort of thing in it, at least theoretically. I can't say whether it's technically feasible within the confines of the in-game system.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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As the links show, Freedom Corps* (red and white) was organized by Statesman and Miss Liberty (Ms. Liberty's mom). It's Freedom Corp that basically oversees your license-to-hero.|
Originally Posted by Quinch
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Ms. Liberty formed a more militaristic division within Freedom Corps called Longbow.
Hero Corps (blue and white difficulty adjusters) is the hero-for-hire private corporation.
*'Corps' rhymes with 'core.' It is not 'corp.' which is an abbreviation of 'corporation.' And it's not 'corpse,' a dead body.
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ah, in either case, neither is a governmental authority
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Originally Posted by Quinch
You're referring to Hero Corps. Unless I'm mistaken, Freedom Corps is formed by Statesman, and Liberty is heading the Longbow arm of FC.
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Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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It hasn't been leveraged much, but it was used super subtly in the Origin of Powers arc.|
Originally Posted by Quinch
We have branching storylines now? where? How? By whom?
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When you talked to the contact that matched your origin, you got a more detailed explanation of the origin of that origin.
So the arc allowed for a test and a branch:
If MagicOrigin, Then TarikossFullMagicInfo; if not, Then TarikossShortMagicInfoThe same with giving the Latin Student the correct answer to enter the Midnighter Club.
This could be used for other things:
If FailMission1, then FallBackMission2; if not, Then Mission2.And so on.
If AssassinTargetKilled=True, then ArcComplete; if not, Then TargetSeeksRevengeMission
You can start bugging Dr. Aeon about including it in the MA... nao!
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I don't think I've ever 'loined' anyone in Vanguard and certainly not him. I know him, but not in a biblical way. |
Originally Posted by DoctorParadox
...anyone who's ever loined vanguard knows him...
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((Sorry, I really couldn't resist!
))
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Ah, that I know. There's also some bits of it in Daedalus' arc, but it's all still unimplemented as to where branching missions are concerned.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
It hasn't been leveraged much, but it was used super subtly in the Origin of Powers arc.
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Still, we can dream.
He's a pain in the **** boss as well, at least for my Scrapper. I ended up dropping that mish.
Personally I loved killing him just because of all the knockbacks in his attacks.
One of the first things I said was I wish I could kill him because he kept knocking everyone out of melee range.
Same thing with Fusionette I try to take her into large mobs to get her wasted,sorry on my team if your annoying,you die.
My main quibble with him as that his force fields were never changed like the player ones so they only add to typed defence not positional. Hence he's completely useless to my /SR or shield scrappers, and actually makes life harder with his KB.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
He is a Ballista, therefore I loathe him.
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We have a winner
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Originally Posted by Airborne_Ninja
He is a Ballista, therefore I loathe him.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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OP:
There's a long tradition in comics of heroes fighting other heroes, often as a result of misunderstandings not unlike the one that leads to the Vanguard/Longbow clash in this arc. Typically, after the misunderstanding is resolved, everyone goes back to being allies after having beaten on each other for half the issue. It's just a plot device to give the fans something fun and different, and I assume the same reason is why it's done in this game. That's how I simply look at it.
You can be friends again with Lt. Sefu after the arc is over. He forgives you.
Another angle, I haven't seen adressed here, is that Gaussian arc is in coop zone and can be run by heros, villains or mixed teams.
From villain's point of view, there is no contradiction to fighting Lt. Sefu, it is rather natural (just another "stinking" longbow).
Mixed teams... Should hero, who has a star and who don't want to fight Lt. Sefu, kick villain from the team if that villain wants to fight Sefu and visa-versa?
BTW, IIRC, when I've done this arc around i11-i12, it was enough to kill longbows around WMD and not to fight WMD herself to complete mission. Probably it was a bug, because it is no longer option: you have to defeat WMD now to complete mission and arc.
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Fix'd. My dom was sooooooooooo pissed off at that mission....|
Originally Posted by Airborne_Ninja
He is a Ballista with purple triangles, therefore I loathe him.
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Normal ballistae are actually fun fights for her, they *can* be held, but I have to keep on it and a single miss can let them get free and wreak havoc. It's actually exciting. Fighting sefu is just annoying, all the power of a normal ballista and immunity to mez on top of that. Takes a normally exciting fight and turns it into the same-old same-old keep-4-purples-up-at-all-times-or-die AV fight.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Originally Posted by NordBlast
Another angle, I haven't seen adressed here, is that Gaussian arc is in coop zone and can be run by heros, villains or mixed teams.
From villain's point of view, there is no contradiction to fighting Lt. Sefu, it is rather natural (just another "stinking" longbow). Mixed teams... Should hero, who has a star and who don't want to fight Lt. Sefu, kick villain from the team if that villain wants to fight Sefu and visa-versa? BTW, IIRC, when I've done this arc around i11-i12, it was enough to kill longbows around WMD and not to fight WMD herself to complete mission. Probably it was a bug, because it is no longer option: you have to defeat WMD now to complete mission and arc. |
Interestingly enough my main Villain actually liked Sefu. Sefu was willing to look past the differences and ultimately do what's best for everyone. Yes he had his orders but he also found ways to work around them. And when we were forced to fight Sefu questioned it, but couldn't find a way out of the situation.(game mechanics wise this is one of the worst fights ever conceived, but story wise it's one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful moment in the game)
As for WMD, she has no right to be upset with what happens as she blindly follows her orders and ultimately ended up pushing Sefu into a situation that should have been avoided. My main holds WMD, Longbow and most of all Miss Liberty responsible for what happened and will destroy them all, reduce their bodies to ashes and arrange for the ashes to fall into the sun.
So congratulations to all of you, as your bigotry turned a passive hatred into an outright loathing.
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conversely, some people never loin, nyuk nyuk nyuk.
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Originally Posted by Dante
I don't think I've ever 'loined' anyone in Vanguard and certainly not him. I know him, but not in a biblical way.
((Sorry, I really couldn't resist! )) |
I agree it's somewhat problematic and it can require a bit of suspension of belief as a player.
There are a couple of saving graces, as has already been mentioned by others: There's a tradition in comics of heroes and superteams fighting each other, look at how often the Avengers have gone up against the X-Men, Defenders, other Avengers, etc etc, and hero groups are often rabidly anti-authoritarian - the Civil War arc is a perfect example of that.
With the RWZ arc I think it's often simpler to assume that the primary threat is the Rikti. If they are not stopped it doesn't matter what side of the divide you're on - the planet won't be worth much after all.
One other thng I've not seen mentioned here is this: Even as a level 50 hero, you're still very much on the outside looking in, without any direct involvement in the convoluted organisations that allow you to be a hero or villain - and even if you have the largest SG, you're still not a player in the grander overview. Therefore we can well assume (like it or not) that organisations such as Longbow, Freedom Corp, Vanguard et al have better intel than we do and know what's best.
It's not perhaps ideal but it does work if you don't scrutinise the story too much
Thelonious Monk
ah, Tendaji, anyone who's ever loined vanguard knows him, and I for one like him a lot. he's always willing to give the benefit of the doubt, it constantly in defense of your actions, and more than happy to give vanguard a hand. which is why I was dismayed when I ran into him as an enemy in the Gaussian arc. I had no choice but to fight him, and go along with gaussian's plan to then infiltrate a longbow base.
I think that I MIGHT have been ok with these, but it's the "no choice" part that gets to me a bit. my character is a superman type, and he hardly seems the type to beat up a loyal ally and then attack the base of a law-enforcement organization unless there is some evidence that they are doing something wrong. which there isn't.
I mean, doesn't the hero have any clout with Freedom Corp.? by this time they've saved the world over and over, and up to this point I assumed that all heroes were freedom corp. registered law enforcers. why do we have to STEAL data, and beat up high ranking officers who've been nothing but good to us?
anyone want to chime in on something I'm missing here, or any rationalizations? Gaussian himself isn't really giving me much to go on, here...