Discussion: Going Rogue Website Update: Emperor Cole

And Statesman crashed a Rikti mothership into a civilian subdivision. Evil? Manticore funds an army of deadly vigilantes to do his bidding. Evil? Ms. Liberty controls a corpse of elite soldiers that use weapons of mass destruction in the middle of at least two major world cities. Evil?

Admit it GG. There's PLENTY of evil to be found in the hearts of the CoH good guys. Let's not try to make it a child's game of 'cowboys and indians', where we cheer for the wrong side

That's not quite on the same scale as creating a world-wide dictatorship that's so repressive that even your thoughts are monitored

According to you, there are no right sides

Just wanted to point out that none of our heroes gives a rat's-patootie about anything that goes on in another dimension unless it effects Paragon City. We'd be trading cookie recipes with Praetoria if Tyrant weren't preparing to invade.

How noble of our heroes to not go to war with a other dimensions where worse things are happening. Like, say, the Psychic Clockwork King is wiping out all of humanity? You've played the Portal Corp arcs. You KNOW that the Phalanx doesn't oppose any tyranny unless it's planning to invade us. Please, start reading between the lines and looking at more than the four basic colors

None of your Heroes, maybe. Mine comes from another dimension altogether, and strives to right wrongs and rescue the downtrodden no matter where he is.

Make no mistake, he's not altogether happy with the way things are going in Paragon all the time, either. (For one thing, why is everybody always breaking right back out of the Zig? Come on, people, let's get some super-powered security guards in there!)

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

Which would've been worse? Doing that or letting the world go on as it was?

Cole doesn't necessarily have to be evil to do everything he's done as portrayed in the biography (and I'm saying this because I don't know if the past stuff is going to get retconned or not). But he can be wrong and/or in poor judgement. Provided this is reasonably accurate and not spun by Cole's PR mutants with massive RDF generating powers, to me it sounds like he did manage to save a lot of people from senseless war and bloodshed as well.

As of this moment, without me having played through all of the related content in GR (for obvious reasons) or threatening a random developer's cat, I'm less willing to say he's evil like I would Recluse, and more like an overprotective (and paranoid) parent. A lot hinges on:

What are the lies? Why are they being told? To serve what purpose?

I guess I simply don't want to write him off as being bad-guy-pretending-to-be-good. Too simple, uninteresting. I have more faith in the folks writing everything than to do that. I'm really hoping that, as you play through things, you will see "Oh, wow, he's really done good here," then catch yourself saying it, feeling a bit weird in the process. To see good, and bad, in his actions, and to lament how far things have been pushed, but at the same time wonder how much you would give up to have the same level of peace and provision the Praetorians have?

There's a lot of potential here to make one wonder, I think. Which is usually a great use of fiction. But if its just "No matter what, Cole is evil," then all the plot, the character development, the quandries and questions are pretty much wasted time for the dev team.

Bad-guy-who-thinks-he's-good is interesting

And realistic. I won't say nobody, because there will always be an exception or two, but the vast, vast majority of people out there that we'd deem evil believe that they are doing the right thing. Or at the very least, that the ends justify the means.

I got some duty for him right here.

*pats the Hammer of the World*

Or that certain someone who keeps getting stuff stolen out of a MAGICAL vault.............

Yeah, I know! In this economy, who can afford to have slaves?

Circle of Thorns uses theirs to dig up the beaches of Bloody Bay every day

I believe at one of the Herocon panels, Posi said that there never was a Lord Nemesis in Praetorian Earth; whatever factors made him megalomaniacal just didn't occur there. I believe Posi said that they liked to think that in Praetoria, he just died a brilliant and beloved but otherwise unremarkable old toy maker.

At the point where he is doing it to save Primal Earth. I hate to bring you out of the game, but believe or not, for a large proportion of the people on this earth, it is a horrific place to live, for a massive number of people that they don't live in the developed world - and even some that do - life is just a persistent round of suffering. If I were to create a single Loyalist, his character aiding the Praetorian would be simply be because he wants to stop the suffering on Primal Earth, irrelevant of whether he thinks that the Praetorian system is justified. He would just see the suffering in our world, compared to that of his world, and he would want it to stop. And that character, if I were to give him an alignment it would be Chaotic Good.

People aren't turned into insane mind slaves. The fact of the matter is that Tyrant doesn't need to do that. He gives them utopia. The insane ones would be those who see utopia and try to fight against it (but of course you're not insane if you realise that everything isn't perfect and fight against it, but I don't think that that decision is right either. As I said before, it isn't simple.) I have a feeling, even if Dominatrix did "take care of his every need" in that way, that part would be retconned.

Above I just gave you a reason for why the invasion of Primal Earth is entirely justified, and would be the action of someone who believes in Good. No ret-conning required. Unless Tyrant and his Guard are portrayed as particularly megalomaniacal in that mission I don't see them needing to be changed past the character models (which we know will be changed).

Your thoughts are monitored, yes, and I'm not saying that is justified, but the thing I keep repeatedly emphasising is this: the Praetorian citizens live in utopia. They live in a world where they are guaranteed jobs (which they only need to work 4 days a week), a home, food and where peace reigns across the earth and the human race continues to progress at a staggering level thanks to this. The thought of betraying their saviour, the God among men that is Emperor Cole doesn't even cross their mind. The question is: what price do you put on eternal harmony?

I was going to suggest the same thing. Make the resistance with good ideals -- overthrow the Tyrant, freedom for everyone (afterward) -- but their rank and file have terrorists leading the cells, collateral damage is acceptable and it's more than a tad uncertain when the peace and freedom phase is going to start.

Folks still join them though because they feel it's the only chance against the Tyrant that there is, so the real tragedy here is good people doing terrible things.

I'm not sure how that would fit in with the "clearly marked" moral choice missions.

According to Paragon Wiki's page on Anti-Matter, Anti-Matter and Neuron created the Preatorian Clockwork together. So it looks like Neuron's involvment in creating the Clockwork is being retconned.

You GOTTA wonder if at least one of the Devs is a history buff/enthusiast!

Jack Emmert was. No idea if anyone else is or if they just keep going with the setting as he left it.

I'm not sure where I read it (somewhere on the web probably) but I believe he had an overbearing brother who through his treatment of the man who would be Nemesis, turned him into something far more sinister. So, it makes sense that if that didn't happen in Praetorian Earth, maybe his brother was just never born there and he remained simply Gerhardt Eisenstad?

Oh please you guys are making tyrant sound like one of the good guys,Remember Praetorian are the evil version of the heroes that was made up along time ago before Going Rogue was Announce.Alot of Evil Villains like the Nazi,terrorist's and so on they all claim they where doing the right thing,but they cause nothing but pain.Tyrant Call's all the Heroes of Prime Earth evil and declare war on them just so he can take over the world.Also he might have became the ruler of the planted by tricking everyone and for the idea of saving everyone form Hamidon during the Hamidon War,ever thought he was controlling Hamidon just so he can set him self up as the ruler of the world.