Keeping up with the Joneses
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-01-12 13:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Some people really do just enjoy slaughtering wave upon wave of enemies, a point that came up a lot during the great farming flamewars of aught-nine.
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Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
The farming process by itself is probably not that fun. The satisfaction of having an uber character at the end is the main driving force.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
I have a 44 blaster that is 100% IOd and a 50 Rad/Rad Defender that I have been playing for almost five years. I built a second build for and started with IOs. Neither were ever refused for a TF, in fact the second build (team vs solo) was so strong that noone would have suspected she had IOs.
IOs are not necessary. If your friend insists on them there are many very good sets that are dirt cheap. I use them and know. The Touch of Lady Grey is an example. It has great bonuses and is all but free at WW. Using the IO sets for debuffs augmented by generics will do the trick. She doesn't need to farm to make her build.
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I enjoy slaughtering a huge number of mobs too. However, for farming, people probably use the same mission or certain type of mission. So, it would be a lot of fun at the beginning, and then it starts to feel repetitive after a while.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
Some people really do just enjoy slaughtering wave upon wave of enemies, a point that came up a lot during the great farming flamewars of aught-nine.
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Amen. If possible, please point the new player to this forum.
When I assemble Task Force teams, I rarely pay attention to ARCHETYPES, never mind their set bonuses! I will look at them out of occasional curiosity, but I've never found a correlation between poor performance and lack of set bonuses.
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One one hand...well, here's the thing: you said you did a 'little' IO set slotting. Without laying out a build that's made with sets that will stack the same kinds of set bonuses, as well as enough set bonuses, you're not going to get a lot. It's the difference between getting TO-sized bonuses and DO- or even SO- or more-sized bonuses overall. I see people say that they don't notice much of a difference when they slot their low-level characters with TOs, but their character greatly improves once they start slotting higher-tier enhancements. Outside the terms of mocking the guy who said you weren't really a Brute, I don't really think it's fair to try and be sarcastic when you say you're 'playing with power' now.|
Originally Posted by The_Killbot_5000
Well that just took the biscuit, I decided that maybe my Level 50 Brute did need some IO's, hadn't needed to until then, but maybe this was a reason to dabble in them. So over the last few weeks I've done a little IO set building/buying and below is the result:
 The Killbot 5000 with shiny new IO Set Bonuses. Then the question has to be asked after all this, do I notice a difference now that I'm playing with power? Short answer: Nope. So, you can have toons at level 50, they can have no IO's or set bonuses and you'll still have fun and be able to handle most challenges the game throws at you. The only appreciable difference with what I have is having Devastation: Chance to Hold in Mu Mastery, that kinda adds something tangible. A visible power, with a noticeable effect, now that's something I can buy into, a 0.1234234% increase to X just doesn't do it for me otherwise. |
If you do a little IO slotting, you can do so in order to improve multiple aspects of a power more efficiently than you could with SOs or standard IOs, or to get some of the larger bonuses offered by the few enhancements that offer bonuses such as +Regeneration, +Recovery, or KB Protection, or just to take advantage of some of the procedural bonuses like Chance for * Damage or Chance for Heal, etc.
On the other hand, your team leader was a dope for automatically assuming you couldn't smash stuff. As many people and even the developers have said, the game isn't balanced around the strongest of IO builds, or even the weakest, but around a LVL 50 SO build or perhaps somewhere a little lower. It's hard to fake competence in this game, even with big numbers.
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There isn't a TF in this game that is balanced around IOs.
Everything can be done with SOs, DOs and even TOs as appropriate for the level. Speed TFs are a bit harder to do with vanilla builds but are entirely possible.
The Player abilities trump AT/IOs etc any day, although the better players tend to be equipped better. Usually IOs and procs won't prevent anyone from getting pwned by a one shot or lucky hit anyhow.
Farming naturally tends to encourage playstyles that are one dimensional. Actually playing through TFs that are challenging would be a better use of time to force the player to learn new tricks rather than simply lean on gear.
PS. Shouldn't the title of the threat be named "Keeping up with the Kents" (or Waynes)?
I've seen people being turned down for STFs and LRSFs quite a few times because they didn't have an IOed out build. Just saying.
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
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Which server?
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
I've seen people being turned down for STFs and LRSFs quite a few times because they didn't have an IOed out build. Just saying.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
My Level 50 Brute has no set bonuses. Just basic IOs. I could put a few sets in, but I don't have the cash, nor am I willing to farm for it.
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Yes it happens, but that doesn't mean that it's a sensible thing to do. The handful of times I've seen it happen I've added a note for the team leader to remind myself to avoid him in the future. Someone who is a gear snob is probably not someone I want to play with
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
I've seen people being turned down for STFs and LRSFs quite a few times because they didn't have an IOed out build. Just saying.
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Moreover, it's mostly likely someone who brought their gear-snobbery from some other game where lewtz has a significant impact on performance.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes it happens, but that doesn't mean that it's a sensible thing to do. The handful of times I've seen it happen I've added a note for the team leader to remind myself to avoid him in the future. Someone who is a gear snob is probably not someone I want to play with
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I've never seen this happen in my years of playing. Hell, I'm scandalized when someone criticizes another player for not taking a specific power (Taunt comes to mind...).
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Heh, I rate people as well but I never really thought it was snobbery but more akin to gear fear. Just like the OP's friend who was concerned they couldn't keep up, I always thought that someone who believes their team NEEDS sets and bonuses or even specific ATs and builds just doesn't know any better. Nothing really wrong with that, but nothing really right either.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes it happens, but that doesn't mean that it's a sensible thing to do. The handful of times I've seen it happen I've added a note for the team leader to remind myself to avoid him in the future. Someone who is a gear snob is probably not someone I want to play with
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Usually those people are at the mid point of the learning curve of the game, where they are just figuring out the mechanics of their toons and haven't truly optimized their playing (yet). Some people may never get past that mentality and will plateau there.
People who figure out their way beyond that usually are a lot more casual about what they bring and will self select their toons to optimize what is best for the team's needs.
A good team leader will make sure that all the basics are covered, a great team leader will make sure also have 2 or 3 alternative plans in their back pocket just in case something happens. Whether a specific person is IOed out or not really doesn't matter then.
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I've never seen it happen, ever. Not even once. Not even "that one time that stupid guy spent 30 minutes asking for a Stone Brute and all of his team quit." Not even for speedrun teams. Not when IOs were new, not during AE babies, not yesterday. Which server do you play on? Freedom? |
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
I've seen people being turned down for STFs and LRSFs quite a few times because they didn't have an IOed out build. Just saying.
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Virtue here.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Ahh, so I'm at the "TO or DO stage" of IO slotting is what you're saying? And that I haven't planned things out for maximum overlap of bonuses on weaknesses so I wouldn't notice maximum effect. If I'm reading it right that's what you mean. Fair enough. I guess I'm just not the sort of player who likes to spend time doing that.|
Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue
One one hand...well, here's the thing: you said you did a 'little' IO set slotting. Without laying out a build that's made with sets that will stack the same kinds of set bonuses, as well as enough set bonuses, you're not going to get a lot. It's the difference between getting TO-sized bonuses and DO- or even SO- or more-sized bonuses overall. I see people say that they don't notice much of a difference when they slot their low-level characters with TOs, but their character greatly improves once they start slotting higher-tier enhancements. Outside the terms of mocking the guy who said you weren't really a Brute, I don't really think it's fair to try and be sarcastic when you say you're 'playing with power' now.
If you do a little IO slotting, you can do so in order to improve multiple aspects of a power more efficiently than you could with SOs or standard IOs, or to get some of the larger bonuses offered by the few enhancements that offer bonuses such as +Regeneration, +Recovery, or KB Protection, or just to take advantage of some of the procedural bonuses like Chance for * Damage or Chance for Heal, etc. On the other hand, your team leader was a dope for automatically assuming you couldn't smash stuff. As many people and even the developers have said, the game isn't balanced around the strongest of IO builds, or even the weakest, but around a LVL 50 SO build or perhaps somewhere a little lower. It's hard to fake competence in this game, even with big numbers. |
"On the other hand, your team leader was a dope for automatically assuming you couldn't smash stuff."
Dang straight.
K5K - The Killbot 5000
A Spanner In The Works Part One, ArcID: 336662, A Spanner In The Works Part Two, ArcID: 336665, Enter Japes, ArcID: 96001
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Some how this reminds me of Diablo 2, where in PvP you get horridly ridiculed for not having the "proper" gear...even by players who have the "correct" set up and still can't beat you in a duel.
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It depends. With some farming builds I've used, you really have to pay attention to stay alive, or to perform efficiently, and it can keep the pulse pounding. On some, you are pretty much safe, and so you can pop in your DVD of Van Der Graaf Generator Live at the Paradiso, and just crush through packs of mobs while doing that.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I enjoy slaughtering a huge number of mobs too. However, for farming, people probably use the same mission or certain type of mission. So, it would be a lot of fun at the beginning, and then it starts to feel repetitive after a while.
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But it is sad that the OP's friend feels compelled to farm in order to be accepted in any Task Forces. The OP should start a task force and tell the friend to come along and learn the task force casually with friends so that she will be ready for doing the task force for real once she gets her IOs. She'll quickly have fun and realize that she IS doing the task force for real, and this inadequacy nonsense will vanish. Hopefully.
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Some folks like to stack up bonuses to try and fill in deficiencies they feel that their character possesses due to the AT or power sets (but I'd only recommend this method if you're concerned about the latter.) Other folks like to stack up bonuses that will further improve the strengths of their character.|
Originally Posted by The_Killbot_5000
Ahh, so I'm at the "TO or DO stage" of IO slotting is what you're saying? And that I haven't planned things out for maximum overlap of bonuses on weaknesses so I wouldn't notice maximum effect. If I'm reading it right that's what you mean.
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For instance, my blaster isn't going to be tanking stuff any time soon, so I'm gradually making a build focused towards a high total damage and recharge bonus. However, regeneration and recovery bonuses are so common among the sets that those are going to end up being significantly improved as well.
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The appropriate reply:|
Originally Posted by The_Killbot_5000
I was playing on my much loved (and a bit scuffed) namesake toon, The Killbot 5000, about a month ago. I joined a PUG, and the team leader starts mentioning that we need a Brute, several times. In case they missed it I point out that I'm a Brute, they reply that, "No disrespect, but I mean one that's been IO'd."
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"No disrespect, but you're a tool."
<quit team>
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Wow been reading the post, okay shocker, I have been denied TF in the past. Told straight I couldn't do 'x'TF because I wasn't a stone tank. To this day I still don't have a stone tank. You can do a lot with SO/ hami's and genertic IO's. So it happens. Personally I have never kick any player off my team because of AT. Game has and always will be about fun for me, when that ends... Well I hope it never does.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
A couple of nights ago, I congratulated a relatively new player (6 month vet) on her very first level 50. While she started a number of different alts, her Rad/Rad defender was the one she fell in love with and played almost exclusively for the last couple of months.
Up to that point, she had done most of the hero side TFs but had yet to try the three of the more popular end game TFs: the Statesman TF, the Imperius TF and the Lady Grey TF. She was eager to try them out, since they represented completely new and unexplored content for her. Upon reaching 50, some of the comments she made were rather interesting (paraphrasing): "Yay, level 50 at last. Now all I need start farming so I can afford all those IOs." You see, she was under the impression that you had to have IOs to even attempt the end game TFs, and that her mostly SO build would be inadequate. I tried to tell her otherwise, but she commented that she had seen other Rad defenders and they seem to heal faster, take less damage and have their key debuffs up faster. She remained convinced that a TF team leader would take one look at her character info, see the karma -knockback IO as her only set bonus and kick her off the team. Understand that the player in question also played World of Warcraft for a couple of years and apparently such gear discrimination is a lot more common in that game. I even told her I'd be happy to start up any TF she wanted, invite good and friendly players and would gladly take her Rad defender. She demurred stating that she'd feel terrible if she "dragged down" the team, and that she'd only join once she was convinced that she could pull her own weight. So today, she contacted me and asked me how to farm with her new level 50 and asked me for tips on how to leverage the market to get influence quickly. She told me that she had started an electric/shield scrapper, not because she enjoyed playing scrappers, but because they were good farmers. Somehow, this left me a little sad. |
American Valor
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Awesome response! But I'm on my bestest behaviour and bit my tongue. What you said is what I felt like saying, but didn't. Over the last few days since posting I've been looking at other people's list of IO set bonuses in-game and realise that if some of their lists are as long as my arm, then mine's only a short-sleeved Tee length. This is also probably why I'm not noticing any great difference between before and after.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
The appropriate reply:
"No disrespect, but you're a tool." <quit team> |
K5K - The Killbot 5000
A Spanner In The Works Part One, ArcID: 336662, A Spanner In The Works Part Two, ArcID: 336665, Enter Japes, ArcID: 96001
In The Darkness Creeping, ArcID: 347709, When Dimensions Collide, ArcID: 412416.
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That amuses me even more than the IO thing. Sure Stone tanks are awesome, but it rarely makes a difference.
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Originally Posted by American_Valor
Wow been reading the post, okay shocker, I have been denied TF in the past. Told straight I couldn't do 'x'TF because I wasn't a stone tank. To this day I still don't have a stone tank. You can do a lot with SO/ hami's and genertic IO's. So it happens. Personally I have never kick any player off my team because of AT. Game has and always will be about fun for me, when that ends... Well I hope it never does.
American Valor |
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I'm on Justice, Freedom, and Virtue.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
A couple of nights ago, I congratulated a relatively new player (6 month vet) on her very first level 50. While she started a number of different alts, her Rad/Rad defender was the one she fell in love with and played almost exclusively for the last couple of months.
Up to that point, she had done most of the hero side TFs but had yet to try the three of the more popular end game TFs: the Statesman TF, the Imperius TF and the Lady Grey TF. She was eager to try them out, since they represented completely new and unexplored content for her. Upon reaching 50, some of the comments she made were rather interesting (paraphrasing): "Yay, level 50 at last. Now all I need start farming so I can afford all those IOs." You see, she was under the impression that you had to have IOs to even attempt the end game TFs, and that her mostly SO build would be inadequate. I tried to tell her otherwise, but she commented that she had seen other Rad defenders and they seem to heal faster, take less damage and have their key debuffs up faster. She remained convinced that a TF team leader would take one look at her character info, see the karma -knockback IO as her only set bonus and kick her off the team. Understand that the player in question also played World of Warcraft for a couple of years and apparently such gear discrimination is a lot more common in that game. I even told her I'd be happy to start up any TF she wanted, invite good and friendly players and would gladly take her Rad defender. She demurred stating that she'd feel terrible if she "dragged down" the team, and that she'd only join once she was convinced that she could pull her own weight. So today, she contacted me and asked me how to farm with her new level 50 and asked me for tips on how to leverage the market to get influence quickly. She told me that she had started an electric/shield scrapper, not because she enjoyed playing scrappers, but because they were good farmers. Somehow, this left me a little sad. |
Please, please, please, refer her to me.
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Hey dude, the dating thread is over here.
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Originally Posted by enrious2
I'm on Justice, Freedom, and Virtue.
Please, please, please, refer her to me. |
Maybe what you need to do is get a team together who don't have massive set bonuses and invite her to run the TFs with you. Give her practical experience of how it actually works.
Maybe build your second build with SO's only to demonstrate?
Thelonious Monk
...Tis is sad when people think they need to become farmers.