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Zach seems to be talking about content which allows character development significantly beyond what is available to a current level 50. Although AE content is numerically high, its still limited in that aspect: it doesn't provide advancement opportunities beyond level 50.|
Originally Posted by Westley
It is? Really? What about the MA + SSK? I'd say that gets pretty damn close.
Now the QUALITY of that content may be debatable, but the quality is essentially infinite. |
Content gating options and player-designed rewards would be the necessary next step to make the AE a theoretical post-50 development tool. But I can't see how to do that without serious exploitability issues. I'll let Dr. Aeon think about that one for the next few years.
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I don't see why people feel the need for constant "improvement". Is that some sort of obsessive compulsive disorder?
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In a nutshell, yes.|
Originally Posted by Westley
I don't see why people feel the need for constant "improvement". Is that some sort of obsessive compulsive disorder?
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Think about it. Every other MMO (okay, at least the ones I've played, which include EQ, EQ II, DAOC, WoW... and a couple others I'm probably forgetting) had the same sort of thing going. First you get to max level, THEN you start experiencing the max level content. Sure, you may have had a few (max level - 1) characters running Onyxia's Lair when it first came out, but these days, you have to be max level (what, 80?) before anyone will let you in a group for any of those end-game dungeons.
CoX is different, though. But it's a hard mindset for a lot of MMO players to break. There are people who race to 50 and then ask "Now what?", not realizing that because of CoX's differences, it's not necessary to speed through the content to get to the end-game. Because there is no real "end-game". Not in anywhere remotely the same way as WoW's end-game....
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One way to make a capless game and limitless content would be a combination of 'Madlibs'/Newspaper style missions and some kind of ability generating engine that just throws together some effects from a list and adjusts the numbers based on your level: at level 52, you get ...let's see... a fire/hold attack (and let's grab the animation from flares and the recharge time from Ice Storm) scaled to your level, at 53 you get 2 slots, at 54 a self-targeting power that buffs move speed and ice resistance, etc.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Zach seems to be talking about content which allows character development significantly beyond what is available to a current level 50. Although AE content is numerically high, its still limited in that aspect: it doesn't provide advancement opportunities beyond level 50.
Content gating options and player-designed rewards would be the necessary next step to make the AE a theoretical post-50 development tool. But I can't see how to do that without serious exploitability issues. I'll let Dr. Aeon think about that one for the next few years. |
Of course, there would still be an effective cap based on the level progression algorythm and whatever xp one can amass in 5 years, and this isn't exactly quality stuff, but at least there wouldn't be threads grousing about the level cap.
Oh who am I kidding?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Herein lies the problem, and it's all in one's point of view. 'Character Development' or more precisely 'continued development' really doesn't end at 50. In many people's minds it does, but they are incorrect in this flawed way of thinking. Quit thinking that 50 is a destination; it is not. It is a level which in this game only equates to a character having 'Powers' equaling 27 with 94 Enhancement Slots (27 Fixed, 67 Variable) allocated to them. This, along with the Basic Costume options and combinations (someone estimated this in the neighborhood of a couple million possible combinations), is Character Individuality and Development at its most basic level, but it is not the end of a characters development. Temporary Powers, Accolade Powers, Badges, Veteran's Reward Powers and Costume options add to this development. Booster Packs add a bit more, Backstory adds more. |
Originally Posted by ZachsMind
I miss my fifties. It's kinda why I left. I rerolled my fifties and tried playing them again on different servers, but its somehow not the same. It's like reading bronze age stories of the same characters after having experienced them in the golden and silver ages. It's fun but the magic is ..off.
It's not about the destination. It's the journey. There shouldn't even BE a destination. Fifty shouldn't be the end cap. Never shoulda been. I fear if CoX doesn't ever figure that out, well Champions Online isn't going to usurp it, but the first hero-oriented multiplayer game that DOES figure out how to have endless content regardless of a character's past accomplishments and experience? Guess where everyone's gonna fly? |
I could go on, but I would hope that it is clear that the Level cap is not the end of a character's career or development. Sadly, there are mindsets that see the level cap as an end to a character's development or growth. Getting to level 100 wouldnt put an end to character development, and a leveless system would not enhance character development. A character will develop as long as the Player wants to play that character in the way that the Player Character grows in the social environment of the MMO. Remember that it is Player Character which is the Player PLUS the Character. Development can only end when the Player decides that the Character is finished. Some of my 50's are pretty much done, but my Main Character is not, eventhough he has been Level 50 for a couple of years now.
The real problem is that so many people (AE babies, PLers, etc.) feel that they must get to Level 50 and then upon reaching that say; "Now what?" They have no idea how to go past the arbitrary End of Leveling because that has been all that there character has been about: Dinging. There is nothing wrong with Dinging a Level, but it is a finite goal. Other MMOs place the majority of their 'desirable' content after the Levels. CoX places the majority of its desirable content before Leveling ends.
I dont know what to say other than the fault isnt the mechanics of the game, but of the interface twixt chair and computer. The best metaphor I can use is if one were given an Ice Cream and Fixings factory with hundred of flavors of ice cream and hundreds of things to put into/onto the ice cream, and then after putting them together in a few gargantuan creations, and chowing them down, they feel that they have personally 'had enough', and dont want to eat ice cream again. Pick and choose carefully to make each creation unique and flavorful, savor them, and share them with others; and the enjoyment can continue for alot longer.
Pretty existential, but that's the point. The Devs could keep slopping new content onto the game, but as long as one plays it the same old way; it will grow old quickly.
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ZachsMind, I seem to recall hearing or reading somewhere around the time of HeroCon that there is indeed to be more Level 50 content around the time of Going Rogue, possibly part of the actual expansion. In fact, I'm fairly sure it was expressed as significant Level 50 content. But no talk of additional levels.|
Originally Posted by ZachsMind
More post Level 50 content.
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Help me out, guys and gals. Anyone remember which dev spilled this, and where? Was it Posi?
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Much easier to say than to do, it turns out. And actually, automatically generating critter powers is not the hard part of this problem.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
One way to make a capless game and limitless content would be a combination of 'Madlibs'/Newspaper style missions and some kind of ability generating engine that just throws together some effects from a list and adjusts the numbers based on your level: at level 52, you get ...let's see... a fire/hold attack (and let's grab the animation from flares and the recharge time from Ice Storm) scaled to your level, at 53 you get 2 slots, at 54 a self-targeting power that buffs move speed and ice resistance, etc.
|
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I'm pretty sure it was Positron, yeah.
And by everything I remember, the level cap isn't going up, but there will be significant content for level 50 characters.
Quote:
The Mission Architect: Stories & Lore board is your new friend, look for it under "For Fun!". People there post their arcs and others talk about them. You can read and find one that sounds like it's worth your valuable time - take a chance! - or read reviews of arcs that others have run and find ones that strike you as interesting.|
Originally Posted by Cien_Fuegos
i agree player content has added to more things to do at any level..
( can use it at 1 5 10 15 20 25 etc to 50) BUT... one bad thing ae has is even with great stories ( will not mention names here) you have to wade through a lot of junk to get to the good stuff ( needle in haystack) ( cant even go by stars because some people get friends to 5 star them even thou its a bad story) not everyone was cut out to be a comic book writer... no matter how many conventions/comic books u have under belt....out of 1000 maybe 100 are good and i think im high on that number |
Ignoring the AE content is silly and wading through the junk is too, when you don't have to.
Why, you could in fact play any or all of my arcs that I have listed in my sig! They all sit at either four or five stars (I don't have 'freinds' or SG mates bumping those numbers either) and have had over 200 plays combined so I must not be turning out junk. I have now saved you the trouble of wading through the MA junk and have shown you some new content - you're welcome.
My main has been 50 for years and not yet finished...
Step 1: Make toon looking as good as you can with Biography
Step 2: Level to 50 using normal content
Step 3: Work out youre biography even better... And you re different costumes...
Step 4: Build an SG and base
Step 5: Do all Task Forces and Raid...
Step 6: Get high enhances. The Inventory System will give you powers upon powers above lvl 50. And the prices will have you working the game for months afterwards.
Step 7: Get Purple lvl 50 enhancements. More costly and even stronger
Step 8: Get special Temp powers.
Possibly coming... Rumours...
Step 9: Global Enhancements only available from lvl 50. GR content rumour.
Step 10: Getting as many Badges as you can...
If you done all this... youre toon is strongest as you can get and you have done all the game can offer. Are you there already?!
Step 11: Doing challenging Mission Architect content on higher repp. Try those in my sig on high repp and let me know what you think. And the good arcs never get old. Search for roleplayers made content. Those are often very well written.
- The Italian Job: The Godfather Returns #1151
Beginner - Encounter a renewed age for the Mook and the Family when Emile Marcone escapes from the Zig!
- Along Came a... Bug!? #528482
Average - A new race of aliens arrives on Earth. And Vanguard has you investigate them!
- The Court of the Blood Countess: The Rise of the Blood Countess #3805
Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!
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This.|
Originally Posted by Liz Bathory
My main has been 50 for years and not yet finished...
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For me (unlike many others), my journey BEGINS at 50. I enjoy all the high-level content available in this game, so I rush my toons up to 50 and THEN begin playing them in earnest, doing all the high-level TFs/SFs, working on getting all the useful accolades, tinkering with builds, helping out others on their TF/SF runs, etc.
I just really like to have a "stable" of toons where I can log onto whatever is needed for a particular run. Need a Tank, shielder/bubbler, damage dealer, etc.? No problem! I got that somewhere in here!
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I think the whole "its not the destination it is the journey" argument is pretty stale to the people who don't feel their level 50 content is enough to keep them interested.
Now that someone has the ability to do all the content once they hit level 50...if you still are interested in the content I am pretty sure they would be just as uninterested in it if they were level 25 and completing the content.
Some people like to play the game and experience a sense of progress and see how new powers work. Others enjoy the story driven nature of the game. The former simply won't stick around as long as the latter...they have different wants.
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The point, though, is that this game is not designed or intended to be a game where you race to 50 and then most of the interesting things occur at 50. Its a game in which you're supposed to play through, and there's no special bonanza of content at level 50 that suddenly unlocks. In this game, level 50 content is afforded only slightly more importance than level 35 content, because the players currently at level 35 have the same right to increased content, and there are more of them.|
Originally Posted by BLYKMYK
I think the whole "its not the destination it is the journey" argument is pretty stale to the people who don't feel their level 50 content is enough to keep them interested.
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Although there's always room for improvement, level 50 content will only exist in this game as part of a continuum of content, not as an ultra-special reward for grinding to 50 as fast as possible. So if you are one of those players who believe level 50 is supposed to be the land of plenty, this really isn't likely to be the game for you. The devs should add more content at all levels, including level 50, but not at the expense of neglecting all the other levels.
I think the main area of improvement the devs can reach for is to specifically engineer level 50 content *for* level 50s, rather than content that is no different than level 49 content. But even with the significantly expanded level of resources available to Paragon Studios, I don't think we'll ever be innundated with level 50 content. If replay doesn't interest you, the devs are simply unable to generate level 50 content faster than the level 50 players can play it into the ground.
"Its not the destination its the journey" is not an argument. Its the design premise of the game. "Its not elves and orcs, its superheroes" is a similar matter-of-fact statement, and if it costs the game players that are more interested in elves and orcs, that's unfortunate but unavoidable.
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Quote:
I think the third number here should be a 50, based on the context of the rest of the sentence.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In this game, level 50 content is afforded only slightly more importance than level 35 content, because the players currently at level 35 have the same right to increased content, and there are more of them.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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O RLY? I'm in the former category and I'm still around.... over 5 years and going strong. So there goes that theory.
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Originally Posted by BLYKMYK
Some people like to play the game and experience a sense of progress and see how new powers work. Others enjoy the story driven nature of the game. The former simply won't stick around as long as the latter...they have different wants.
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Nope, actually I intended it to be read as written. There are almost certainly far more players with level 35s than level 50s, and they deserve more content just like the people who've hit the level cap deserve more content. Level 50 is only *slightly* more special than level 35 because it *is* the cap, but otherwise CoX doesn't accord a special significance to level 50.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
I think the third number here should be a 50, based on the context of the rest of the sentence.
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This is even more true for me with the new sidekicking/exemplar system. It took years, but my alts who exemplar down now actually feel more powerful than characters who are natively the exemplar level. Also, by giving access to powers 5 levels above the exemplared level it makes content in the 30's much more appealing for my 50's. By the mid-30's my alts generally have all their core concept powers, so exemplaring down to that range is now a minor reduction in power.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Nope, actually I intended it to be read as written. There are almost certainly far more players with level 35s than level 50s, and they deserve more content just like the people who've hit the level cap deserve more content. Level 50 is only *slightly* more special than level 35 because it *is* the cap, but otherwise CoX doesn't accord a special significance to level 50.
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My 50's continue to develop in power and concept regardless of the level cap. As i continue playing them i come up with new tactics, slotting, power and costume concepts. Although i usually don't build around using any purples at all, regular IO set bonuses can greatly change how an alt plays.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Only thing I remember remotely related to Level 50 Content and Going Rogue was Posi's statement that "any endgame content will happen in Praetoria." Cryptic? Misspoken? I dunno, but I tagged it when I heard it Other than that; I cannot say...
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Originally Posted by Rodoan
ZachsMind, I seem to recall hearing or reading somewhere around the time of HeroCon that there is indeed to be more Level 50 content around the time of Going Rogue, possibly part of the actual expansion. In fact, I'm fairly sure it was expressed as significant Level 50 content. But no talk of additional levels.
Help me out, guys and gals. Anyone remember which dev spilled this, and where? Was it Posi? |
Ninus Lvl 50 Bots/Dark/SM Mastermind Badges: 1384 @Ninus on Global
Put an Ebil MasterMind in the Obal Office: It wont be the first time
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have read that and yes used it to look some arcs..usually those are great theproblem is i count those in the 10%..rest usually are farms ( yawn) or just plainly either badly written or written for specific purpose...|
Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5
The Mission Architect: Stories & Lore board is your new friend, look for it under "For Fun!". People there post their arcs and others talk about them. You can read and find one that sounds like it's worth your valuable time - take a chance! - or read reviews of arcs that others have run and find ones that strike you as interesting.
Ignoring the AE content is silly and wading through the junk is too, when you don't have to. Why, you could in fact play any or all of my arcs that I have listed in my sig! They all sit at either four or five stars (I don't have 'freinds' or SG mates bumping those numbers either) and have had over 200 plays combined so I must not be turning out junk. I have now saved you the trouble of wading through the MA junk and have shown you some new content - you're welcome. |
im sure your arcs are entertaining think i played one....i was just stating ae is a good idea but have to find one not only worth your valuable time but also that entertains....
im not sure when i got thread jacked but this thread was about wondering what was between issue 16 and going rogue...
as Ood Sigma said....We will sing to you, Doctor. The universe will sing you to your sleep. This song is ending. But the story never ends.
It has been stated that Going Rogue will bring us a new system to "power-up" our "exemplary" Heroes and Villains (i.e., those that don't switch sides).
It was also said that switching sides will not preclude you from experiencing this new system, but it will delay your progress.
Regardless, there will be a way to make your level 50s even stronger than they currently are, and it's not simply going to be new purple recipes. There has been no official information about what this new system might entail, but one theory is that it will be global enhancement slots that affect your character as a whole (as with an invention set bonus), rather than individual powers. This, of course, is what was suggested in the marketting survey a few years ago, with phrasing akin to "bring your character to a theoretical level 60"... but it could be something completely different.
Again, not to sound like a broken record here, but...
We don't know.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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So much of what was hinted at in the August 2008 marketing survey has come to pass that barring any other actual info I'm willing to assume that the "global enhancement slots" concept still has a reasonable chance of happening in some form or fashion in GR.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
There has been no official information about what this new system might entail, but one theory is that it will be global enhancement slots that affect your character as a whole (as with an invention set bonus), rather than individual powers. This, of course, is what was suggested in the marketting survey a few years ago, with phrasing akin to "bring your character to a theoretical level 60"... but it could be something completely different.
Again, not to sound like a broken record here, but... We don't know. |
Obviously there's no guarantee of that, but I do think that whatever we end up getting for any new post-50 content will more likely be something like that rather than any kind of level cap increase. New content does -not- require an arbitrary number like that to get bigger.
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If we do get the universal enhancement slots, I wonder what the devs would do to make the current content more of a challenge to the players who get them?If they really did make 50s more like 60s, then a team with a sull set of universal enhancements would totally slaughter any current TF, no matter what the difficulty setting 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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One possibility is that we might get enhancements that have special abilities that exist only in endgame content, similar in concept to the PvP enhancements. They would be slightly better than regular IOs in conventional content, but provide special stronger or more unique boosts in endgame content.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
If we do get the universal enhancement slots, I wonder what the devs would do to make the current content more of a challenge to the players who get them?If they really did make 50s more like 60s, then a team with a sull set of universal enhancements would totally slaughter any current TF, no matter what the difficulty setting
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An example of something the devs could do that would be both big and unique in terms of enhancement for the endgame, without being ridiculously unbalancing, would be a unique special enhancement that could only be slotted in reasonably "conventional" (probably single target) attacks which would reduce that power's recharge to zero (or if you don't want to add a lot of tech, boosted that power's recharge to the recharge ceiling with a ridiculous level of recharge). This would allow players to pick their favorite attack and then spam it in endgame content. Its a powerful ability, but not game-breaking *in the endgame* (it is potentially unbalancing in the conventional game, especially at lower levels).
You could also slot attacks with special abilities that made them affect shifted targets, temporarily disabled a target's powers, or other strange effects designed to add elements of chaotic power to endgame content.
I have no idea what the devs are cooking up for GR in terms of endgame content or level 50 advancement, but if it was me I would be thinking up ways to create end game content in which the critters use novel tactics and abilities (some might call this "cheating") and then give the players ways to counter those tactics as level 50 advancement. The idea would be to make sure the cheating was interesting, and not cheap, although that is partially in the eye of the beholder.
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Seems to me another fairly simple possibility is giving the players (back) the ability to affect the difficulty in TFs/SFs (being able to increase it -- for purposes of this discussion I'm ignoring any possibility of lowering the difficulty, which obviously doesn't address GG's question about TF challenge levels).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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The tech already (at least partially) exists, and was even applicable to TFs/SFs for a short period. Being able to crank a TF/SF up to various "insane" levels (perhaps even higher than the system currently in use for regular content) might be able to compensate somehow for the additional power given by whatever will boost level 50s (such as "universal enhancement slots" or whatever form the mechanic takes).
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Now the QUALITY of that content may be debatable, but the quality is essentially infinite.