Amazing Praetoria game mechanics idea!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-11-29 23:21 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
So screw everyone, just because you're not happy?
True enough. I'll do that here. 1) I have some builds, with IOs used to plug some holes, or to make them more effective. 2) I have some builds, with fun IOs used to make the character more fun, but probably less effective overall. Things such as +KB effects on melee characters, and the like. 3) I have other builds, including my namesake character, that use only basic IOs, and don't use sets at all. 4) I have other builds, that still use only SOs. I have never had a problem getting or staying on a team with any of these characters. Also, trying to get PvP changes reverted or even changed because the system isn't considered popular by the PvE crowd here probably isn't going to work. In PvP, you do need much more balancing than in PvE. In PvP, having someone that always wins doesn't work. In PvE, everyone always wins, really, so it's not a problem, and you want to be able to have different challenge levels for everyone. |
So it's fair to say that most if not all your builds benefit from IOs.
I'm not trying to get change to PvP. I'd have to be a noob to expect anything to get changed considering PvPers have tried before.
PvE challenge levels can be changed and more features were added just for this purpose in i16. This doesn't take IO bonuses.
And no, everyone does not always win in PvE. I've been in TFs where the team was unable to finish.
No where did I say "screw everyone else" I am saying introducing DR will help to balance SO and IOed out builds.
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And what part of I13 backed up his statement?
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
i13
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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i13
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
And what part of I13 backed up his statement?
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That's not the point that we're arguing, though. Sure, IOs benefit any build that uses them, really. I'm not trying to say that they don't. What I am trying to say is that it's not an unfair advantage, and shouldn't be taken away in any part of the PvE game.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
So it's fair to say that most if not all your builds benefit from IOs.
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Also, since I said that not all of my builds even have IOs, it is not fair to say that all of my builds benefit from IOs. They could, but they don't.
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| I'm not trying to get change to PvP. I'd have to be a noob to expect anything to get changed considering PvPers have tried before. |
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| PvE challenge levels can be changed and more features were added just for this purpose in i16. This doesn't take IO bonuses. |
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| And no, everyone does not always win in PvE. I've been in TFs where the team was unable to finish. |
There are many factors that can lead to a failed TF. It's not only lack of IO'd characters that does it. Otherwise, no TFs would have been completable before IOs. And I know that they were.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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And again, what part of that backed up his statement that bringing the PvP changes from I13 into the main game proves that that change would increase player retention?
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
i13
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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i13
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
And again, what part of that backed up his statement that bringing the PvP changes from I13 into the main game proves that that change would increase player retention?
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I love this thread so much. Aett, I'm tempted to ask you not to feed the trolls, but I'm so very entertained that I just can't do that.
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Originally Posted by Sigium
I love this thread so much. Aett, I'm tempted to ask you not to feed the trolls, but I'm so very entertained that I just can't do that.
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Me too!
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And I don't see how it's fair to rebalance when you haven't demonstrated that things are unbalanced in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
No, you didn't HAVE something like DR in order to balance IOed builds vs SOed builds back then. Now you do.
I don't see how it is unfair to balance the PvE game now when they have the ability to do it. |
Thing is, I/we don't HAVE DR for PvP. It's not like it's sitting there ready to roll and they just haven't implemented it. You're making a big assumption that they'd be able to do it.
Here, tell me this. Have you tried to fight NPCs in a PvP zone since DR got put in? Do you have a concept of how the NPCs haven't been touched yet, and that ALL NPCs would have to be rebuilt to account for DR? Any idea how much work that would entail?
Please stop making it sound like implementing DR is some kind of magic bullet.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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^^
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Aha ha ha ha ha *wipes away tears* Oooh ha ha aha aha ha ha |
[CENTER]Euro side: [B]@Orion Star[/B] & [B]@Orions Star[/B][/CENTER]
Based on Tokyo's whining, when I create a new character, I should start out at Level 50, be able to select all of my powers, unlock all costume pieces, and be underway with all badges.
After all, it isn't fair that I can't play with the same efficiency as people who spent time leveling to 50. I mean, I'm sitting here, Level 4, using the same 2-3 powers that aren't doing much of anything while the others are kicking butt and leaving me in the dust. Not. Fair!
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Ah! The heart of the matter!|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
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a week or two ago my emp was kicked from a posi because they said my recharge would be too low and they wanted a emp that would perform better. meaning one with more recharge bonuses. recently I was kicked from a lRSF because my dom wasn't a perma dom. ... |
As Aett_Thorn mentioned and you agreed, these leaders/team were jerks, plain and simple.
You submit that the devs can do something about this by adding DR.
With DR, an IOed out character will STILL outperform one that is not.
The jerks will still kick those they think are not worthy.
In the end, the Devs simply tick off a bunch of players, get bad press and possibly lose subscriptions.
It was certainly not the magic fix for PvP. DR simply lowered the amount by which IOed characters were better.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Yes, that's "simply" all that was done. Spoken from a true PvP vet that I'm sure PvP's on a regular basis.
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
DR simply lowered the amount by which IOed characters were better.
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DR and other changes to PvP were much more extensive, I am well aware. |
Originally Posted by SmegHead
Yes, that's "simply" all that was done. Spoken from a true PvP vet that I'm sure PvP's on a regular basis.
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My point remains, DR lowers the amount by which IOed characters are better, but they remain better none-the-less. Therefore, jerks that kick over builds and bonuses will still do just that, making adding DR to PvE in an effort to keep the jerks at bay will fail.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Ah! The heart of the matter!
As Aett_Thorn mentioned and you agreed, these leaders/team were jerks, plain and simple. You submit that the devs can do something about this by adding DR. With DR, an IOed out character will STILL outperform one that is not. The jerks will still kick those they think are not worthy. In the end, the Devs simply tick off a bunch of players, get bad press and possibly lose subscriptions. It was certainly not the magic fix for PvP. DR simply lowered the amount by which IOed characters were better. |
Its not personal when I kick people for underperforming builds - its just business, in a sense. I want my team to perform well in game just like my team performs well in RL. If I need to add someone to my team at work, I hire the best possible person for the job based on their resume and how they interview. Could I get screwed and miss out on a great candidate? Absolutely. But, at the end of the day, I am experienced in hiring talent because I have been around people who have done it for a while. Now, in game, people don't post resumes, but you do have their build to look at to see how experienced they are. If they are running a fun concept build with jumpkick and flurry - I can kinda see that we might not work well together. Or If I see a bio or comment that says, "I hate SB - don't SB me evah!" And I am on my kin, I MIGHT not want to team with that person.
What does any of the above paragraph have to do with implementing i13 PvP changes to PvE? Well, it makes it easier forming teams because everyone is brought down. I don't have to pick and choose between a Pimped out Ill/rad and A FF/son defender SO'd because they would basically offer the same thing. If DR were implemented, I could just invite the first 8 people I see standing next to Imperious and 1a2a3a my way to a completed TF.
In the end, having these Changes would make me LESS like a jerk than I really am - which is a good thing.
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I don't know where you find this sort of person but I've only ever seen two cases where a person forming a team requested IO'd toons. In one case the requestor was roundly mocked for it (deservedly) by the other denizens of the global channel. In the other case the person was setting up a very high end challenge (a 4-man MoSTF attempt) where asking for IO'd toons is reasonably justified (and even then he said he'd prefer IO'd toons, not that they were required).|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
I probably would have liked old CoH. I have been kicked a few times from teams because of my build wasn't up to the teams standards.
a week or two ago my emp was kicked from a posi because they said my recharge would be too low and they wanted a emp that would perform better. meaning one with more recharge bonuses. |
In general the only time I really notice if a toon is IO'd or not is when I see a squishy character go flying because they don't have a -KB IO. Even then I'd never refuse someone a place on my team just because of that.
As someone who has probably half a dozen + builds that can solo +4's +8's I think it might be time to bring some DR into PvE.
Try playing a soft capped blaster or defender or scrapper or whatever next to a SO'ed one. It really isn't fair to have the performance margin quite so wide. Or high recharge builds which perma very potent powers. (Hasten, Heat loss, Domination, Mind link, etc etc) The gap is just too wide. DR could help bring that back in line some for the casual players.
It would also bring a challenge back to PvE content where as it is, running around with a therm/sonic/FF'er is pretty much god mode to everything. Soft capped defense and everyone res capped. With DR you'd be "stronger" with these characters in tow but not completely invincible. Beyond that you wouldn't *need* to bring some of them along to find a comfortable middle ground. Squishies would get global resists to all types of damage to help them out a little, to compensate for the high defense and resists they used to be able to get with outside help. Kind of like a middle ground.
If damage was adjusted slightly on a DPA balancing forumula and AoE's were brought in line you'd have less farming and more builds would be viable at it.
DR already works for PvE, its been around for 3 issues. There are a slew of NPC's in all of the PvP zones, and yes sometimes you have to kill them off with a DR'ed Heal Decayed travel suppressed toon. People have been doing it for a while now its nothing new.
Come on! The game is beyond easy mode, lets bring a little challenge back to it! And for those who are in the "Have not" group, lets make sure they are playing in the same league as the "Have's" Its no fun to have someone be better than you just because they have more free time.
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And adding DR to PvE will simply lower the amount by which IOed characters will be better than SOed characters.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
It was certainly not the magic fix for PvP. DR simply lowered the amount by which IOed characters were better.
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Aett stated previously that the game is built around the idea that a character is built with SOs.
So aren't IOs and their bonuses a significant advantage? All DR would do is balance the IO builds so that their bonuses wouldn't be as drastic.
Adding DR would make much more sense and be much easier to implement than going into the game and balancing PvE for IOs, don't you think?
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I love people who have Blasters that they've softcapped Defense on, probably after spending several hundred million influence, and then they talk about bringing challenege back to the game, like they can't do that by just taking those IOs out.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
As someone who has probably half a dozen + builds that can solo +4's +8's I think it might be time to bring some DR into PvE.
Try playing a soft capped blaster or defender or scrapper or whatever next to a SO'ed one. It really isn't fair to have the performance margin quite so wide. Or high recharge builds which perma very potent powers. (Hasten, Heat loss, Domination, Mind link, etc etc) The gap is just too wide. DR could help bring that back in line some for the casual players. It would also bring a challenge back to PvE content where as it is, running around with a therm/sonic/FF'er is pretty much god mode to everything. Soft capped defense and everyone res capped. With DR you'd be "stronger" with these characters in tow but not completely invincible. Beyond that you wouldn't *need* to bring some of them along to find a comfortable middle ground. Squishies would get global resists to all types of damage to help them out a little, to compensate for the high defense and resists they used to be able to get with outside help. Kind of like a middle ground. If damage was adjusted slightly on a DPA balancing forumula and AoE's were brought in line you'd have less farming and more builds would be viable at it. DR already works for PvE, its been around for 3 issues. There are a slew of NPC's in all of the PvP zones, and yes sometimes you have to kill them off with a DR'ed Heal Decayed travel suppressed toon. People have been doing it for a while now its nothing new. Come on! The game is beyond easy mode, lets bring a little challenge back to it! And for those who are in the "Have not" group, lets make sure they are playing in the same league as the "Have's" Its no fun to have someone be better than you just because they have more free time. |
Seriously, people, DR won't do what you want it to do. IO builds will still be better than non-IO builds. If you want a challenge, you can do that now by making smart choices. If you're feeling like your character is too strong, take out the things making him that way.
Don't change the game in a way that isn't beneficial to people that like playing that way, when you can just make the challenge yourself.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Nobody is saying that IOs can't provide a significant benefit. What everyone is saying is that that is not a bad thing in and of itself.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
And adding DR to PvE will simply lower the amount by which IOed characters will be better than SOed characters.
Aett stated previously that the game is built around the idea that a character is built with SOs. So aren't IOs and their bonuses a significant advantage? All DR would do is balance the IO builds so that their bonuses wouldn't be as drastic. Adding DR would make much more sense and be much easier to implement than going into the game and balancing PvE for IOs, don't you think? |
Some people want a challenge. They can still have it. Some people want to play god-like characters. They can do that, too. There is nothing stopping either player from doing what they want other than themselves.
The game is balanced around SOs. It is not built around SOs. There's a big difference there. All that means is that everything in the game can be done by characters using only SOs. That does not mean that everything can be done solo by a character using only SOs, only that, with an appropriate team, nothing requires that any of those characters have anything stronger than SOs.
IOs can make things easier. A lot easier. There is nothing wrong with that. That was the intention behind them. People were asking for ways to make their characters better/stronger, but there was going to be no level cap raise. So, Inventions and sets allowed people to make their characters better without adding new powers or slots to current level-capped players. In some cases, and with a lot of time and money, this can make characters really powerful. That's the point of them.
With a lot of TIME and INFLUENCE, they can become more powerful. I don't see anything wrong with that. And if, in so doing, you find yourself not challenged by the game, you can simply take them out.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
With a lot of TIME and INFLUENCE, they can become more powerful. I don't see anything wrong with that. And if, in so doing, you find yourself not challenged by the game, you can simply take them out.
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With this post I will disagree. The game should be the driving force behind being challenging. Players shouldn't have to gimp themselves just to make a challenging game. (Its the very reason Ive been asking for an Ungodly hard difficulty with level 55 AVs and such)
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With the way DR works though you can still get 20-25% defense on that blaster, and focus on things like Recharge/Damage/ +HP etc etc. Its not like DR wipes everything out, just brings AT more in line with each other. Scrappers can get higher defense than blasters, tankers can get more defense than scrappers. Blasters get more damage than the other two before it gets DR'ed. DR brings builds back in line to their AT rather than letting everything be a potential tank mage. You can still make a really tough blaster under the DR system, just not quite as tank magey. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I love people who have Blasters that they've softcapped Defense on, probably after spending several hundred million influence, and then they talk about bringing challenege back to the game, like they can't do that by just taking those IOs out.
Seriously, people, DR won't do what you want it to do. IO builds will still be better than non-IO builds. If you want a challenge, you can do that now by making smart choices. If you're feeling like your character is too strong, take out the things making him that way. Don't change the game in a way that isn't beneficial to people that like playing that way, when you can just make the challenge yourself. |
Yeah I could strip my IO's out... but I'd rather just have the playing field leveled somewhat. Like you said, IO'ed builds will still be better than SO'ed builds. That makes sense, but the gap won't be so wide that a full IO'ed/Purpl'ed/Accoladed toon is worth about twice what your common SO'ed toon is.
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That's part of the beauty of it - fighting NPCs in a PvP zone is significantly more risky than the same NPCs in a PvE zone. They didn't rebalance the NPCs in PvP zones to account for the new rules - why should they? They'd be back at square one. It's the imbalance that makes it challenging. All the changes would do is normalize things so performance between ATs and powersets is roughly equal and no one has a huge advantage over anyone else just because they invested more time or have better enhancements. And yes, the tech is there to apply the PvP ruleset to every PvE zone - currently the PvP rules work by checking what zone your character is in, and all they'd have to do would be add the PvE zones to that list.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
And I don't see how it's fair to rebalance when you haven't demonstrated that things are unbalanced in the first place.
Thing is, I/we don't HAVE DR for PvP. It's not like it's sitting there ready to roll and they just haven't implemented it. You're making a big assumption that they'd be able to do it. Here, tell me this. Have you tried to fight NPCs in a PvP zone since DR got put in? Do you have a concept of how the NPCs haven't been touched yet, and that ALL NPCs would have to be rebuilt to account for DR? Any idea how much work that would entail? Please stop making it sound like implementing DR is some kind of magic bullet. |
I chuckle every time I read this thread because it's full of PvEers who are so desperately trying to defend the way the system works that they're pulling out the big guns and using solid logic (I'm not being sarcastic here) to explain why the changes would be a terrible idea. The funny thing here is that the PvP population tried to do the same exact thing when I13 landed, but the devs decided to go through with it anyways, and the only thing stopping them from doing the same thing to PvE is the fact that they really would kill the game. Just look at what happened to the PvP population after I13 - many PvPers left, organized high-end PvP simply died, and those who have been trying to push for changes for the better have been seemingly ignored. Don't get me wrong - I hated the I13 changes then, I hate them now, and I wouldn't want to see them applied to PvE. One of the reasons I can even stand to PvE in this game is because it's the closest I can get to pre-I13 PvP. Just know that if, for whatever reason, the devs actually did decide to dump some of the PvP rules onto PvE, no amount of dislike, logical explanation, or people quitting would be able to stop it.
The reason PvP was changed in the first place is because people were too used to PvE, where they could be buffed to the gills and herd up groups of dumb AI-controlled NPCs and AoE them to death with almost no risk to themselves. That didn't work in PvP, so rather than actually trying to figure out what did work, they just whined and asked for everyone else to be brought down to their level.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
The point is that you shouldn't be able to get so powerful in the game. We all saw with the whole AE nightmare that if you dangle a piece of steak in front of a dog hes going to grab it. Easy mode is that steak, players are, well... the dog.
Most people will take the easy road. What I believe they are saying is that the easy road shouldn't be a option. Let me rephrase that, the extremely easy road shouldn't be a option. Cap defense on squishies at 20% like they did in PvP so blasters cant get a unfair advantage but still are able to have a slight edge over other non IO'd players. Make IO's still have a function but don't over do it. DR is the perfect tool.
Equality PLZ!!!!!!!!!!!!