Amazing Praetoria game mechanics idea!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-11-29 23:21 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Since you have a nigh infinite amount of SO appropriate content, I'm sure you can't begrudge them adding some IO appropriate content. In the end all that does is get you what you want, which is teams of people who are less likely to be on uber IO builds.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
It's much easier and cheaper to implement DR than it is to build challenging content that still works on the basis of builds running on SOs.
That is all. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Yep, ironically they got pulled because people were using them to make the TFs easier. Hopefully they'll be back eventually so that those who want to run STFs are +4 with the enemies buffed challenge setting can.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
Obviously, the recent changes in the difficulty sliders are a step in this direction but I think they got pulled for TFs.
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| Along these same lines, at GR the Devs said that the new ways to make your 50th level characters more powerful would allow them to 'trivialize' the current content. Certainly that will come with more challenging content, don't you think? |
To the OP.
Great idea. I support this. We need this implemented with GR.
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If come GR we are still using a system that uses SO's, i'm concerned that the difficulty will be even easier than it is now for those who have IO'ed out toons, more so when you include the potential of being "super-powered." |
Originally Posted by Alpha_Zulu
To the OP.
Great idea. I support this. We need this implemented with GR. |
If the difficulty of the new content is raised to compensate for IO bonuses and being "super-powered." Won't that exclude most people who only have SO's?
If that's the case why not implement something similar to DR in PvE in order to balance the playing field.
Troll attempt is troll worthy:
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
what mac is suggesting, i did.
i went over to the badges forum on my second acct a few days after getting my third and "final" ban on this account. i went on to suggest that competition for badges was ruining the game and that players should only be allowed to have a certain number of badges. the thread got to be about 10 pages long before they realized who i was (ZOMG BAD PPPER), and went on for about 13 pages before it got locked. it was pretty awesome. |
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Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
You just gave me an amazing idea!
For GR they should apply the exact same rules in Praetoria that we have for PvP. This would not only provide players with a refreshing new level of challenge, but would also allow them to learn and understand these mechanics in a safe environment which will in turn make them less apprehensive to step foot into the Arena or a PvP zone. win/win I'll be posting this in suggestions so please be sure to click over there and show your support. |
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Originally Posted by macskull
Here's an amusing social experiment: go into the suggestions and ideas forum and start a thread about how the game could stand to use some rebalancing to bring certain "problem" builds in line, as everyone knows there are certain powerset combinations that are way better than others. In this thread, you'd list off the changes made to PvP in I13, but reword them and apply them to PvE so it's not immediately obvious. Make the post, and then watch the uproar as people would say "wow, if they did that, I'd quit the game." The devs knew this when I13 happened, yet they also knew that the existing PvP playerbase was so small as to be completely expendable so they had absolutely no qualm with making all those changes. Now, the PvP playerbase is even smaller, which makes me wonder if they're thinking to themselves "well, it can't get much worse, let's throw some more changes at them and see what happens," or if they're saying "hm, we should fix this."
You hit the nail on the head, good sir. |
From this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...75#post2437575
Multiple people have lost credibility as far as I'm concerned.
Carry on.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I think I might favourite this thread.
Y'know, when I'm deluding myself with the worth of humanity. Or simply when I want to laugh at carbon-based constructs. Or simply to make myself feel a little bit insane.
In all seriousness? This makes me glad I play EU side. I can just play casually and how I want to play, without worrying about being randomly kicked for not 'healing fast enough' or 'not enough dps!' or somesuch...
Sheesh.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, for those arguing against these amazing and very sorely needed PvE changes, here is the simple reason the devs gave the PvP community.
These game mechanics are desperately needed. The learning curve for beginning to PvE is too high and only IOd, accoladed and expensive toons can PvE the way we meant for people to PvE, +4/8 Man.
Thats not my arguement, thats the devs, simply changed PvP to PvE and Test Arena/High End PvP for +4/8 man.
How kan u not c eet?
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I don't know. The fact that they were able to predict this might happen seems to lend that thread some credibility.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Troll attempt is troll worthy:
Multiple people have lost credibility as far as I'm concerned. Carry on. |
You mean to tell me you don't believe that there should be some form of function in place to balance PvE so that PvE maintains it's difficulty for all range of players?
the game currently doesn't take into consideration IOs or benefits gained from. So why is a DR like function in order to balance this disparity in the game not your flavor?
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Unless pohsyb has been torturing new players again, there's no way your team mates could have known what your recharge was. The only way that statement makes sense is if you were kicked for an exemplared high level empath that was presumed to have superior slotting to you, inventions or not.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
a week or two ago my emp was kicked from a posi because they said my recharge would be too low and they wanted a emp that would perform better. meaning one with more recharge bonuses.
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In any case, I still don't bother slotting IOs except what happen to drop automatically until basically level 50 (sometimes I start at level 47 for obvious reasons). I've never been interrogated on my build by strangers on a team, and I'd tell anyone who did for the purposes of determining my fitness to be on the team to go climb a tree.
Plus, I can solo Positron. With SOs. If your team mates needed an extra couple of percent of global recharge for Positron, they had problems that DR isn't going to fix.
On the subject of implementing DR game-wide, while I recognize the intent of DR in PvP, I don't agree with the DR curve implementation. As a result, I would oppose implementing it in PvE, and the devs know this. However, that's a moot point because Castle is never going to do that.
On the subject of inventions in general: the devs have stated repeatedly and directly that the point of the invention system is to provide higher levels of performance for players that want to participate in it. Its optional in the sense that they are not needed to be competitive with the PvE content as originally designed. However, if your definition of "optional" is different, then your definition of optional is incompatible with the game's design.
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These game mechanics are desperately needed. The learning curve for beginning to PvE is too high and only IOd, accoladed and expensive toons can PvE the way we meant for people to PvE, +4/8 Man.
Devs said it and it made all PvP vets arguements invalid, so therefore, this is also true, and all the people opposing these changes are HARDc0r3 l33+ PvE Farmerz and don't accurately represent the PvE population.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
“These game mechanics are desperately needed. The learning curve for beginning to PvE is too high and only IO’d, accoladed and expensive toons can PvE the way we meant for people to PvE, +4/8 Man.”
Devs said it and it made all PvP vets arguements invalid, so therefore, this is also true, and all the people opposing these changes are HARDc0r3 l33+ PvE Farmerz and don't accurately represent the PvE population. |
lol this thread delivers for the epic level of trolling.
*gets popcorn*
it's entertaining. Carry on.
EDIT: It's also amusing that there are pvpers still emotionally hurt about issue 13 yet still sub and still play the game.
If something pisses me off that much I vote with my wallet.
*again, gets popcorn*
EDIT2: I also find it amusing that anyone in their right mind thinks that devs think that the base level for pve is +4/8 Man invinicible
bwhahahaahhaahah! *points and laughs* *munches on popcorn*
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Im a horrible troll, but I am horribly bored, so Thx.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
lol this thread delivers for the epic level of trolling.
*gets popcorn* it's entertaining. Carry on. |
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Because it isn't necessary. There are already plenty of functions in place that allow you to adjust the challenge to suit your power and preferences they simply aren't mandatory. Personally I tend to enjoy a bit of challenge and will push the difficulty to the point where I'm almost dying (although I have little interest in setting it to the point where I'm going to die since that's not enjoyable) however I have no interest on forcing my play style on other people.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
I don't know. The fact that they were able to predict this might happen seems to lend that thread some credibility.
You mean to tell me you don't believe that there should be some form of function in place to balance PvE so that PvE maintains it's difficulty for all range of players? the game currently doesn't take into consideration IOs or benefits gained from. So why is a DR like function in order to balance this disparity in the game not your flavor? |
This is the fundamental difference between PvP and PvE. In PvP a certain amount of balance is required between different characters types otherwise you end up with one build that is the be all and end all of PvP. In PvE everyone can do their own thing, if I choose to solo at +0/x4/no bosses and someone else chooses to solo at +4/x8/bosses what does it matter to me? I'm having fun doing my thing and they're having fun doing their thing. This game has tons of levers to allow you to play at a difficulty appropriate for you either using the standard difficulty setting, the Ouroborus/TF challenge settings or the AE (at least in single player, I'll admit the team difficulty settings break down a bit at the high end).
Now was DR the right choice for PvP? I can't say, I don't PvP have no interest in PvP and wouldn't particularly care if the PvP zones vanished from the game (although I would miss the Shivans). That doesn't change my view that DR is the wrong fit for PvE.
I will note that this thread and the actions behind it have caused me to lose any respect for PvPers in general. I apologize to the decent PvPers who have been tarred with the same brush but trolling on behalf of PvPers is not the way to make PvEers like you.
Guiz. jussd ingore these l33+ self rightious PvE farmzorz, they are unfair and don't want anyone else to get anything
(<3 Epsilon)
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I was asked to give examples of instances where someone was excluded from a team because of the lack of IO bonuses. So I sited my own experience. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Unless pohsyb has been torturing new players again, there's no way your team mates could have known what your recharge was. The only way that statement makes sense is if you were kicked for an exemplared high level empath that was presumed to have superior slotting to you, inventions or not.
In any case, I still don't bother slotting IOs except what happen to drop automatically until basically level 50 (sometimes I start at level 47 for obvious reasons). I've never been interrogated on my build by strangers on a team, and I'd tell anyone who did for the purposes of determining my fitness to be on the team to go climb a tree. Plus, I can solo Positron. With SOs. If your team mates needed an extra couple of percent of global recharge for Positron, they had problems that DR isn't going to fix. On the subject of implementing DR game-wide, while I recognize the intent of DR in PvP, I don't agree with the DR curve implementation. As a result, I would oppose implementing it in PvE, and the devs know this. However, that's a moot point because Castle is never going to do that. On the subject of inventions in general: the devs have stated repeatedly and directly that the point of the invention system is to provide higher levels of performance for players that want to participate in it. Its optional in the sense that they are not needed to be competitive with the PvE content as originally designed. However, if your definition of "optional" is different, then your definition of optional is incompatible with the game's design. |
I was excluded from that particular TF because my Emp was not equipped with IOs. Therefore the team leader concluded that my build was inadequate.
The second time I was excluded from a team because of my build was a LRSF. My dom was not perma so they opted not to take me.
These were two instances and I'm positive i'm not the only one that has experienced this.
While many team leaders might not be forward about their selections, they DO many times check for IO bonuses.
I'm glad you can solo-positron with SOs. I'm sure that comes with some experience. Experience I have yet to gain and many others have yet to.
While you don't agree DR is needed, I'm going to continue to disagree. I only see a widening gap between the performance of IOed and SOed builds once GR comes out and "super-powered" is included into the formula.
IO's are optional. My definition isn't incompatible with the games design. However, being at a very large disadvantage to IOed builds isn't FUN. It wasn't fun in PvP for casual gamers and that's why it was changed.
And please leave the belittling statements to the PvP threads, Arcana.
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K, you lost respect for all of 10 people, lol pvp community. With the buket of Awesumness that was I13, we got leik Over 9000 new pvpers, if we do it to PvE, we might finally overthrow WoW.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Because it isn't necessary. There are already plenty of functions in place that allow you to adjust the challenge to suit your power and preferences they simply aren't mandatory. Personally I tend to enjoy a bit of challenge and will push the difficulty to the point where I'm almost dying (although I have little interest in setting it to the point where I'm going to die since that's not enjoyable) however I have no interest on forcing my play style on other people.
This is the fundamental difference between PvP and PvE. In PvP a certain amount of balance is required between different characters types otherwise you end up with one build that is the be all and end all of PvP. In PvE everyone can do their own thing, if I choose to solo at +0/x4/no bosses and someone else chooses to solo at +4/x8/bosses what does it matter to me? I'm having fun doing my thing and they're having fun doing their thing. This game has tons of levers to allow you to play at a difficulty appropriate for you either using the standard difficulty setting, the Ouroborus/TF challenge settings or the AE (at least in single player, I'll admit the team difficulty settings break down a bit at the high end). Now was DR the right choice for PvP? I can't say, I don't PvP have no interest in PvP and wouldn't particularly care if the PvP zones vanished from the game (although I would miss the Shivans). That doesn't change my view that DR is the wrong fit for PvE. I will note that this thread and the actions behind it have caused me to lose any respect for PvPers in general. I apologize to the decent PvPers who have been tarred with the same brush but trolling on behalf of PvPers is not the way to make PvEers like you. |
..
...
....
RITE?
(WoW has DR, its better then ours, can we have their DR?)
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I was going to respond to your other statements, but I've decided instead to simply state have FUN beating your head against this particular rock, because PvE isn't going to ever get pervasive diminishing returns comparable to the PvP system, ever.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
And please leave the belittling statements to the PvP threads, Arcana.
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And let me know if you want to bet on it.
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I wanna bet this rock, two acorns and a bloody paintbrush.
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If anything you lost your credibility because you really just wasted your time looking it up when it was obvious.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
T
From this thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...75#post2437575 Multiple people have lost credibility as far as I'm concerned. Carry on. |
And for the record, I'd rather have Diminishing Returns on critter XP, recharge suppression (basically double all recharges), and Health decay (approx. 100hp from your max each minute you're in a mission).
These changes would make for a more challenging PvE environment.
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Did I say comparable? I said PvP "like." I never said comparable. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was going to respond to your other statements, but I've decided instead to simply state have FUN beating your head against this particular rock, because PvE isn't going to ever get pervasive diminishing returns comparable to the PvP system, ever.
And let me know if you want to bet on it. |
If you don't have a follow up argument, that's fine by me. I realize a comparable DR system won't make it into PvE, it wouldn't make sense to implement the same system. But a DR system that's "like" PvP that decreases the benefits of IO and their bonuses for the purposes of balance. I still do not see as a bad idea.
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Mac was right, though. The thought of even suggesting PvP's system on the game is repugnant to all. What does that leave us to conclude? Although, I know that horse is long gone, and even Castle has freely admitted there are a lot of things he wanted to have done that he couldn't get passed.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
From this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...75#post2437575 Multiple people have lost credibility as far as I'm concerned. Carry on. |
I'm not a PvPer in CoH, and don't have quite the vested interest of others, though Aion has me more interested in PvP (it was really exciting!). I've heard at least a few devs have been playing Aion a bit, so perhaps some of their PvPvE game might just come over to our game, which would be a good thing.
To all the PvE'ers - it really can be fun. Please don't discount PvP based on either CoH's community or the game. Team PvP especially is great - where everyone has a role.
Anyway, just postin' to make sure I still gots my cred.
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Wait... do you have a problem with me expressing my opinion on an Internet forum? Or did you just have have difficulties linking the thread in general, as opposed to my specific post? Not that I don't agree in part with Mac, or trying to impress anyone in general, I just want a point of clarification |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
From this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...75#post2437575 Multiple people have lost credibility as far as I'm concerned. Carry on. |
Although this thread is full of stereotypes already; one couldn't swing a dead cat in this thread without hitting one. You can just lump me in with whoever you wish I suppose.
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You mean the all the nasty bugs and glaring imbalances that were pointed out while I13 was still in beta, and persist over a year later because the devs are "happy with the changes?" Yeah, those didn't stop I13 from happening.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Ummm no it's not. This is per the devs.
They tried it once and found many bugs that allowed them not to implement it. And who says new challenging content has to be built around SOs? |
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Troll attempt is troll worthy:
From this thread: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...75#post2437575 Multiple people have lost credibility as far as I'm concerned. Carry on. |
Thanks for taking the time to participate in this wonderful social experiment (and lol @ thinking I care what someone I've never met, played with, nor particularly cared about thinks about my "forum cred").
EDIT: I think DR would be a fine system in and of itself, as long as it didn't come along with the bad additions like free base resistances that make DR complete garbage in PvP. SO'd builds would experience little to no effect, and you'd have to make variations in your IO builds so not to run up against DR softcaps on certain aspects, and you couldn't pack multiple kinds of the same buffs on your team - basically, DR is ED for buffs. While I agree it would cause a drop in subscriptions, particularly from the powergaming crowd, it would be interesting to see what might happen.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I'm just wondering, if we gave Tokyo and Optical a billion in Influence and the exact builds for PermaDom etc. would they still feel the same way?
>_>
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