Amazing Praetoria game mechanics idea!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-11-29 23:21 in Suggestions and Ideas
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I was once kicked from a group because I had too many IOs and they wanted someone more 'beginner friendly' for their newbie players. I've also been told by a large number of teams:|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
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You asked for examples of why IO bonuses should be subject to DR. I provided examples through explaining personal experiences. Of course they are anecdotal. if you need evidence that IO sets offer a disparate advantage to SO's please jump on Mid's. How would "the entire slew of enemies" need to be reworked when the system doesn't account for IO's or bonuses in the first place? Please link me to a post where the Devs have explicitly stated "We would have to rework the entire system. If bonuses were subject to a diminishing return in PvE." I don't buy it. I will, however, buy that the Devs won't implement a DR like feature because they feel the PvE community do not want it. |
"We don't mind SOs. It's not the enhancements that make the powers!" or some form of 'the power lies in the POWER, not the enhancements'.
You have given anecdotal evidence, and now I have. This is evidence why PvE is just fine with IOs.
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Wish Granted|
Originally Posted by _Lith_
Link please
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In the future, I recommend following the dev digest so you can keep up to speed on discussions like this.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I have never said I would supply evidence, I said I would supply examples to support my opinion that IO bonuses should be subject to a feature that limits their benefits. |
Originally Posted by Sigium
I was once kicked from a group because I had too many IOs and they wanted someone more 'beginner friendly' for their newbie players. I've also been told by a large number of teams:
"We don't mind SOs. It's not the enhancements that make the powers!" or some form of 'the power lies in the POWER, not the enhancements'. You have given anecdotal evidence, and now I have. This is evidence why PvE is just fine with IOs. |
You're free to disagree by explaining your own experiences. Your experiences don't discredit my own.
Instead of trying to create more DR, how about just making IO's a bit more accessible. I'm not saying just giving them to people, but it could definitely be streamlined. I mean why not bring all the different extra ways of getting IO sets (merits, tickets, etc.) and use a universal item that can be used to get IO sets?
The amount of work involved to get IO sets are incredible. They practically require you to build a farmer in order to get them.
Just my 2 cents worth, but whatever.
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I think you really need to explain how the same thing isn't accomplished through the robust revamps of the Difficulty system that we've already been given. It hasn't been fully realized yet, but once the problems with TFs are fixed, then what you're looking for is provided, WITHOUT nerfing anyone.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
Do I really need to explain why reducing set bonuses would make running missions and TFs more challenging?
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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They do when you're trying to portray your experiences as the general case, or even as commonplace. They're not. Neither are his. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and somewhere in the middle in this case leads to a state that really doesn't require any sort of change.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
You're free to disagree by explaining your own experiences. Your experiences don't discredit my own.
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People are going to find a way to be snobs, if their nature is to be snobbish. It's who they are. There's no rule change you can implement that will fix human nature.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Awesome, thanks for the link. So DR CAN be implemented and the devs HAVE considered such a feature in a limited capacity; however, it's unlikely that it will.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Wish Granted
In the future, I recommend following the dev digest so you can keep up to speed on discussions like this. |
That's good enough for me.
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Which IOs are you going for? Purples? Then, yeah, they're hard to get - and meant to be hard to get.|
Originally Posted by highair_boarder
Instead of trying to create more DR, how about just making IO's a bit more accessible. I'm not saying just giving them to people, but it could definitely be streamlined. I mean why not bring all the different extra ways of getting IO sets (merits, tickets, etc.) and use a universal item that can be used to get IO sets?
The amount of work involved to get IO sets are incredible. They practically require you to build a farmer in order to get them. Just my 2 cents worth, but whatever. |
But regular generic IOs and most sets - not so much. If you look in the Guide to Guides, you will find info. if you look in the market forum, you will find info. Fulmens has a couple of guides linked in his sig.
Not an "incredible" amount of work - just play your dang character.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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If when you say "can be implemented" you mean "yes we can write it down on paper as a potential idea and think of a couple ways it might work" then yes you're right. However that's basically theoretical. It's not like it's an easy switch or something that can be readily applied to PvE, which is what some folks seem to be implying.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
Awesome, thanks for the link. So DR CAN be implemented and the devs HAVE considered such a feature in a limited capacity; however, it's unlikely that it will.
That's good enough for me. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Originally Posted by Ad Astra
Which IOs are you going for? Purples? Then, yeah, they're hard to get - and meant to be hard to get.
But regular generic IOs and most sets - not so much. If you look in the Guide to Guides, you will find info. if you look in the market forum, you will find info. Fulmens has a couple of guides linked in his sig. Not an "incredible" amount of work - just play your dang character. |
I'm talking about orange sets and yes it is difficult to get them. It's not like they drop really often. Some of the individual IO's from these sets sell for 10-20 mil each. So you're stuck either playing away hoping to get the right ones or saving money so that you can bid on the 5 or 6 that are available.
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Are you playing redside? That's a different strategy (which I am not at all familiar with) but apparently it can be done because people do it all the time (and have written guides on it).|
Originally Posted by highair_boarder
I'm talking about orange sets and yes it is difficult to get them. It's not like they drop really often. Some of the individual IO's from these sets sell for 10-20 mil each. So you're stuck either playing away hoping to get the right ones or saving money so that you can bid on the 5 or 6 that are available.
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And forgive my ignorance - but is there such a thing as an "orange set"? I thought any set less than a purple was a mixture of both yellow & orange, and that different parts of the set typically bring vastly different prices on the market (other than the PvP IOs).
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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Welcome to the markets.|
Originally Posted by highair_boarder
I'm talking about orange sets and yes it is difficult to get them. It's not like they drop really often. Some of the individual IO's from these sets sell for 10-20 mil each. So you're stuck either playing away hoping to get the right ones or saving money so that you can bid on the 5 or 6 that are available.
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This is why I stick with SO's until level 47, then start Vanilla IO'ing everything (cos Vanilla IOs at 50 give better numbers)
I don't particularly care about Setting people. My two level 50s which I've had for a long, long time, are still not fully setted.
And you know what? I can STILL do better on my Invul tanker on mostly vanilla's than some super-slotted guy on a stoner. Or at least keep up. I can still blow stuff away with my Mastermind, even If im not some unkillable perma-stuff death machine.
If you actually suffer badly on SOs...you're doing it wrong. Sorry, but its true.
If you just want all the shinies...so? Don't we all? Life ain't fair.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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"Orange sets?" You mean the PVP IOs? They're supposed to be (a) rare, and (b) a reward for PVPing. And some of the individual ones have gone for several hundred million to over a billion INF. |
Originally Posted by highair_boarder
I'm talking about orange sets and yes it is difficult to get them. It's not like they drop really often. Some of the individual IO's from these sets sell for 10-20 mil each. So you're stuck either playing away hoping to get the right ones or saving money so that you can bid on the 5 or 6 that are available.
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Solution? Still one of "Play the game." If you want PVP sets, get some friends together and PVP. Yes, the drop rate is low. It's meant to be. (I don't know if you were hoping to find them in PVE - if so, it's not going to happen. PVP with some friends for a while. Wander into the server and/or PVP boards and see who PVPs, if there's some PVP event, etc. and go there.)
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Those orange sets could be obliteration, gaussian's, luck of the gambler - all of which have certain ones that aren't too common to come by. I never bothered looking to see who dropped the oblit quad, but I really should.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
"Orange sets?" You mean the PVP IOs? They're supposed to be (a) rare, and (b) a reward for PVPing. And some of the individual ones have gone for several hundred million to over a billion INF.
Solution? Still one of "Play the game." If you want PVP sets, get some friends together and PVP. Yes, the drop rate is low. It's meant to be. (I don't know if you were hoping to find them in PVE - if so, it's not going to happen. PVP with some friends for a while. Wander into the server and/or PVP boards and see who PVPs, if there's some PVP event, etc. and go there.) |
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Hmm, point. And it matches the price range he mentioned better. But still, playing the game will net them. Even if it's the TF specific drops (for instance,) getting merits will still allow you to purchase anything but purples.
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Originally Posted by Tonality
Those orange sets could be obliteration, gaussian's, luck of the gambler - all of which have certain ones that aren't too common to come by. I never bothered looking to see who dropped the oblit quad, but I really should.
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I'm going by what Castle stated, not what he or I meant. He said It can be implemented but it's unlikely. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
If when you say "can be implemented" you mean "yes we can write it down on paper as a potential idea and think of a couple ways it might work" then yes you're right. However that's basically theoretical. It's not like it's an easy switch or something that can be readily applied to PvE, which is what some folks seem to be implying.
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That settles the argument for me.
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Pool C|
Originally Posted by Tonality
Those orange sets could be obliteration, gaussian's, luck of the gambler - all of which have certain ones that aren't too common to come by. I never bothered looking to see who dropped the oblit quad, but I really should.
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Merit roll or Gold Class with Tickets plus the rare chance of a drop from a Boss class critter.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Just FYI, but DR in PVE has been discussed before: link|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
I'm going by what Castle stated, not what he or I meant. He said It can be implemented but it's unlikely.
That settles the argument for me. |
Sounds like they were thinking of GR back then on certain encounters.
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As others have commented, the recipes in question are mostly Pool C/D. Yes they do tend to be a bit pricey (unless you're a farmer or you play the market) but you can generally get them without to much difficulty if you really want them.|
Originally Posted by highair_boarder
I'm talking about orange sets and yes it is difficult to get them. It's not like they drop really often. Some of the individual IO's from these sets sell for 10-20 mil each. So you're stuck either playing away hoping to get the right ones or saving money so that you can bid on the 5 or 6 that are available.
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The glib answer is to just play your level 50s, most level 50s can make 20mil in a few hours of playtime. There are several better methods however. The simplest is to run TFs (or story arcs, Hamidon raids, GM hunting etc.) and use your merits wisely. The safe way is to save up 240 (or something like that) and direct buy one of the high value IOs (level 25 LotG recharge are a good choice since they generally got for 100mil or more). With patience you can do a entire build for less than 100mil and even if you're going after rarer recipes 100mil should buy you one or two full sets. Alternatively you can spend your merits on random rolls (I like level 35-39), if you're lucky you'll get some of the recipes you want but even if you don't some of the rolls will get you stuff that other people want and you can sell it for the inf to buy your desired enhancements.
The other method is marketeering. A simple suggestion that I've stolen from Fulmens is to find an IO that you want, purchase two recipes, craft both of them, slot one and sell the other. Obviously you should check the prices before doing this but many times the crafted ones sell for enough that you basically get the one that you're keeping for much less than the normal price (or even turn a small profit).
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Thread intent aside -
One thing that didn't come into this - the PVE mobs are designed at a certain power level. They're meant to be there. They dont' complain when they're defeated, they don't decide not to come back to PVE.
PVP before - wasn't, for some, fun (and I don't mean in the "I hate PVP" way, I mean in the "I can't compete" way.) Some builds I avoided taking into the zones, others I felt were fine.
I get what the devs were trying to do. And I agree with what they were *trying* to do - make PVP more accessible to more people. Yes, facing an experienced PVPer, a newbie's going to die most likely. But it was the intent of trying to even things out - I don't think Mac, for example, would argue that wasn't the intent, or a desirable outcome.
Obviously, it didn't work. Suppression the way it's dealt with in PVP isn't all that intuitive - ok, I see when attacking, sure. Or even when attacked. But when taking an inspiration? Really? And quite honestly, with the SSK changes to how exemplaring affects powers, I'd call the low end zones just flat out broken now for PVPing with a lowbie. (I'll tend to take a lvl 15-18 into BB gauge how they're working, or at least used to. A shivan run was a nice benchmark - can I effectively take down a firebase in one run from full health? Now, not only do the powers not work - but I may be facing someone with lvl 30 powers on a "25." Siren's was nice before with no Tier9s of any sort. Now, all you're missing is the tier9 on the secondary. And I haven't seen anyone in the zones, period, for a few months now, barring some PVP IO farmers for a bit.)
If they'd done the changes a bit at a time, then further tuned and tweaked, as opposed to one big all out change, maybe it'd be different. *shrug*
PVE challenge can be added by the devs just like they did with the cimerorans and rogue vanguard - unexpected abilities and toughness via various NPC powers. Given the batallion's not in the game, I'd say not to expect "You must have IOs to fight" style groups.
And as far as "IO'd characters only, please," well - I haven't run into it myself. But IOs mean jack as far as how good a player is. IOs don't play the game. IOs don't cause or prevent team wipes. Only the player does. A team leader that *only* wants IOd characters is going to miss good players - and IMHO isn't doing a great job. Which is fine with me, as they wont' be inviting me, or many of the players (who for the most part know the game intimately) I play with. Their loss.