Amazing Praetoria game mechanics idea!
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-11-29 23:21 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Again, please show me where any player is kept out of teaming because they don't have the right IOs. I've never seen a player get kicked from a team because they didn't have enough IO sets.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
Most new players ARE looking to be just as effective in PvE as senior players.
By toning down the "uber" builds new players won't feel as threatened or left out from teaming. |
And I said that new players aren't looking to be just as effective as older players "right away." They know that they need to work on it, just like everybody else did.
I've never met a new character in this game that expected to be as good as a 5 year-old level 50 player right at character creation.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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It's called an using a RL example to explain a point of view. |
Originally Posted by Tokyo
You're using a real life scenerio for a game. This is a game not real life.
Everyone should be able to have fun even if they prefer not to IO out their toons. By reducing the benefits IO sets offer, it will help begin to even the playing field so that regular players don't feel they need to compete with other players by making "uber" IO builds. |
Fun is does not revolve around IOs for every player. For those that do have fun building characters with IOs, you are doing nothing but stomping on their time, energy and fun to make yourself feel like you characters are more powerful. This sounds like nothing more than envy, to me.
Team leaders that will exclude anyone for having a certain build, IOs or not, are complete jerks, why would you want to play with them anyway?
This is NOT a FPS. In MMORPGs, the more you play, the more power you gain. That's the Genre. Like it or leave it.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Soooo...the Praetorian version of Positron is weaker because they have different game mechanics in their dimension?|
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
This also makes complete sense from an RP standpoint because that would explain why the Praetorian counterparts to our signature heros and villains are not as powerful in certain ways.
Wow, it's so amazingly interesting how all this fits together! |
It doesn't make sense, especially when you think that Tyrant beat Statesman and trapped him, which never would have happened if the game mechanics you would like to be in PvE were there, since Tyrant would ALWAYS be weaker than Statesman.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Why should people who spend more time and effort get greater rewards than some schlep who just signed up?
What's up with that?
It'd sure be a winner if the folks who have spent countless hours working on their toons were suddenly reduced to being the same as they were when they 1st signed up.
That would surely encourage resubscriptions if the devs wiped the hard-won benefits veteran players had accrued.
[I was hoping some of these other posts were sarcasm too, but I am beginning to see that they were not.]
As sarcastic as the OP's suggestion is, if you look at the state of the game, the PvE game *IS* too easy. High end builds can trivialize any PvE content in this game. Players are soloing hard taskforces, multiple AVs and GMs.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they do another round of "balancing" in preparation for GR. This isn't me calling for another round of global nerfs. Personally, I'd hate it. But I wouldn't be surprised if they contemplated it.
DR has already been beta tested in PvP. At some point, it makes sense to unify the rulesets. Making damage equivalent to animation time is probably a conceptual rule they should've implemented long ago. Same with things like heal decay, which forces players to come up with something other than heal spamming. The plethora of +def IO set bonuses is rather broken too, and DR would neatly solve that problem.
The backstory for GR (like CoV before it) provides another opportunity to capitalize on PvP. I don't think that they'll leave PvP in the state they have it in, but I think it would be naive to think that some of the balancing they've already done in PvP won't eventually make their way to the PvE side of the game.
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I swear I heard a pvper say something along the lines of the quoted above, but about pvp...Only to be ripped to shreds.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
Why should people who spend more time and effort get greater rewards than some schlep who just signed up?
What's up with that? It'd sure be a winner if the folks who have spent countless hours working on their toons were suddenly reduced to being the same as they were when they 1st signed up. That would surely encourage resubscriptions if the devs wiped the hard-won benefits veteran players had accrued. [I was hoping some of these other posts were sarcasm too, but I am beginning to see that they were not.] |
Hmmm.
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Something like this too..
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Specifically, this point:
No. Absolutely not. If somebody spends 10 times as much time with you in-game, they SHOULD have better stuff than you. Why is that not fair? That's absolutely fair. They spend more time playing that you do. You're basically saying that it would be more fair for doctors and McDonald's counter staff to make the same amount of money, despite the fact that one went to school for much longer. It doesn't make sense. |
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Exactly - it's not fair that someone who's invested in their character can solo a hard TF, or an AV or GM. Why should they have the advantage over a player who is just learning the ropes? It would be much better if everyone was on an even footing to begin with, and if that was done by bringing down the high end instead of bringing up the lower end. Just make it so that it's impossible to solo those TFs, or AVs/GMs, and then no one will complain, right? Right?
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
As sarcastic as the OP's suggestion is, if you look at the state of the game, the PvE game *IS* too easy. High end builds can trivialize any PvE content in this game. Players are soloing hard taskforces, multiple AVs and GMs.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they do another round of "balancing" in preparation for GR. This isn't me calling for another round of global nerfs. Personally, I'd hate it. But I wouldn't be surprised if they contemplated it. DR has already been beta tested in PvP. At some point, it makes sense to unify the rulesets. Making damage equivalent to animation time is probably a conceptual rule they should've implemented long ago. Same with things like heal decay, which forces players to come up with something other than heal spamming. The plethora of +def IO set bonuses is rather broken too, and DR would neatly solve that problem. The backstory for GR (like CoV before it) provides another opportunity to capitalize on PvP. I don't think that they'll leave PvP in the state they have it in, but I think it would be naive to think that some of the balancing they've already done in PvP won't eventually make their way to the PvE side of the game. |
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No, you do not NEED to, but many including myself equate "fun" with being just as effective as people with fully IOed out builds. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
But you don't NEED to perform as well as the uber builds. I've never found in-game a leader who kicked people without enough IO sets in their build, or who even really mentioned it to anyone on the team. So I'm not getting why anyone needs them. Are they useful? Sure. Can they make you better? Sure again. Do you need them? No.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AS UBER AS THE MOST FULLY IO'd OUT CHARACTERS OUT THERE. You just don't. You might want to be, but you don't need to be. New characters of any game should understand that somebody that's been playing for 5 years longer than them is probably going to have better stuff. As long as they know that they can get there someday should be fine for most new players. |
Just because they have better "stuff" doesn't mean they should be more effective. Cooler clothing? sure. Cooler weapons? sure. That's "stuff."
Players with lots of IO bonuses are much more effective than those outfitted with SOs. I understand that the player that has been on for 5 years should and will be more "skillful" than a newbie. But IO bonuses just give them an unfair advantage.
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It's also still not fair to those players who have worked more to get their characters to where they are to have that stripped from them, and you know it. |
They won't lose their bonuses. They will just be lowered so there isn't such a large difference between SOs and IOs.
While it may not be fair that they lose some bonuses. reducing the bonuses offered by IOs WOULD be fair because there wouldn't be such a large difference between SOed and IOed builds.
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Agreed, but it is very similar. You're asking every character in-game to be as effective as every other. Basically, even if somebody puts in more time and effort, or does harder tasks, they get the same reward. Have you heard of communism? Because that is basically what that is. You're asking for those who have spent more time and/or effort, and have made their characters better, to be stripped of a lot of that, while bringing up characters that haven't done the same things. You're basically creating a situation where there is no payoff to doing the harder things in the game. |
There is a payoff. The payoff is the experience one gets from running missions and TFs as well as gaining badges and influence. The implementation of DR in PvE would simply curve the ridiculous competitivness for "uber builds." Everyone will have a chance to be just as effective with that AT because IO bonuses won't make such a huge difference.
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Good! They're kind of supposed to! People spend a lot of influence and time to get to that point though, and if they find that too easy, they can always take the IOs out of their build.|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
As sarcastic as the OP's suggestion is, if you look at the state of the game, the PvE game *IS* too easy. High end builds can trivialize any PvE content in this game. Players are soloing hard taskforces, multiple AVs and GMs.
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| I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they do another round of "balancing" in preparation for GR. This isn't me calling for another round of global nerfs. Personally, I'd hate it. But I wouldn't be surprised if they contemplated it. |
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| DR has already been beta tested in PvP. At some point, it makes sense to unify the rulesets. Making damage equivalent to animation time is probably a conceptual rule they should've implemented long ago. Same with things like heal decay, which forces players to come up with something other than heal spamming. The plethora of +def IO set bonuses is rather broken too, and DR would neatly solve that problem. |
Just look at the damage that melee does in PvE vs. PvP. Ranged damage tends to be less than melee damage. If a Tanker could do more damage than a Blaster, and be relatively as safe, and could exploit the PvE AI to all crowd around him, the Tanker would be better than the Blaster, and would minimize the Blaster's role on a team.
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| The backstory for GR (like CoV before it) provides another opportunity to capitalize on PvP. I don't think that they'll leave PvP in the state they have it in, but I think it would be naive to think that some of the balancing they've already done in PvP won't eventually make their way to the PvE side of the game. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I could seriously copy paste most of Aett posts, swap a few PvE's for PvP and come up with a compelling argument on why the new PvP systems sucks so bad.... err, I mean is so great!
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No, it is NOT an unfair advantage. New Players CAN get this stuff. It just takes time. Any player who decides to go for a build like the uber guys can get it...with time. That makes it a completely fair advantage, since you can do it, too.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
No, you do not NEED to, but many including myself equate "fun" with being just as effective as people with fully IOed out builds.
Just because they have better "stuff" doesn't mean they should be more effective. Cooler clothing? sure. Cooler weapons? sure. That's "stuff." Players with lots of IO bonuses are much more effective than those outfitted with SOs. I understand that the player that has been on for 5 years should and will be more "skillful" than a newbie. But IO bonuses just give them an unfair advantage. |
You equate fun to being just as good as the other guys. Please understand that some people's idea of fun is to be BETTER than the casual players. Other people have an idea of fun that doesn't involve IOs at all. Right now, all can exist in the same system. The people who want to be better can be. The players who don't care don't have to. The players that want to be as uber as the big guys can work towards it.
Why should you, somebody who doesn't want to put in the work, be just as good as somebody who doesn't mind putting in the work to be better?
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| They won't lose their bonuses. They will just be lowered so there isn't such a large difference between SOs and IOs. |
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| While it may not be fair that they lose some bonuses. reducing the bonuses offered by IOs WOULD be fair because there wouldn't be such a large difference between SOed and IOed builds. |
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| No, communism would be sharing one build across every AT. Realisticly all ATs won't be alike because ATs were created to perform different tasks on a team. |
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| There is a payoff. The payoff is the experience one gets from running missions and TFs as well as gaining badges and influence. The implementation of DR in PvE would simply curve the ridiculous competitivness for "uber builds." Everyone will have a chance to be just as effective with that AT because IO bonuses won't make such a huge difference. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I wouldn't be surprised. If I played PvP at all, I probably would've been campaigning against the changes. But I think it would've been hypocritical of me to say that changes were bad to a system I didn't care about. I figured that the PvPers had more weight in that department.
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Originally Posted by SmegHead
I could seriously copy paste most of Aett posts, swap a few PvE's for PvP and come up with a compelling argument on why the new PvP systems sucks so bad.... err, I mean is so great!
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Well... If you go by this then your leaders don't have a clue. There are a lot of AE babies running around with very little time in game but could have a ton of IO's in their build. They could be great players but Bling doesn't equate to experience.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
If you want to perform as well as those "uber" builds yes, you do need to IO out your character. People with lots of IOs are prefered over people who don't because many leaders equate "experience" with what you have in the form of IO sets.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
So yes, it does make a significant difference. While it may not be the Devs fault, I believe they (the devs) agree that new players and players that don't want to IO out their builds should be just as effective as those that do want to IO out their toons.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
It's perfectly fair for all toons to be just as effective in PvE as the next.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
You're using a real life scenerio for a game. This is a game not real life.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
Everyone should be able to have fun even if they prefer not to IO out their toons. By reducing the benefits IO sets offer, it will help begin to even the playing field so that regular players don't feel they need to compete with other players by making "uber" IO builds.
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Dragon-King First level 50 -- Fire/Nrg Blaster
(and to many alts to mention)
Protector
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| Originally by Arcanaville: Everything in Praetoria was designed during a drinking binge in which the devs temporarily forgot the rules. |
Why are we even arguing about this? We've already been told the following:
1) PvE content isn't going to be back modified for IOs, but that doesn't mean future content won't be designed to challenge people with them.
2) Diminishing returns as a global mechanic will not make it into the PvE game. It would necessitate a total redesign of all NPC powers on top of the changes needed for players.
3) the only time they've even considered it for PvE is for buff/debuff stacking, and even then Castle has said it would only be an extreme last resort.
The defining premise of the people in favor of it here seems to be "but better builds are better, and that's unfair!" Well I hate to tell you guys this, but everything you lay on the table as "evidence" was not only possible, but happened on a semi regular basis even before IOs. Soloing GMs and AVs? Done. Lots. Soloing against full team's worth of foes? Done. Lots. In trying to make the point that IOs are too effective, you're trying to say that SOs aren't effective enough, and that's where it breaks down for you.
The key thing you're not seeing is that all IOs do is make those feats more accessible to more Powerset combinations, and more builds. It's not just a few very skilled players with very well planned builds, it's a lot of different ATs with a lot of different methods, and lots of players with different skill levels who all have one thing in common, they've played and enjoyed the game to get where they are, and are reaping the benefits.
I really can't see how you have a leg to stand on when you're arguing that more people doing more incredible things with the character they pick instead of a specific uber powerset, is somehow UNfair. IOs are the great equalizer, and arguing that we need to pound them down in the name of some ephemeral idea of fairness, is silly.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I'm going go out on a limb here and assume you have a couple of IOed out builds with quite a few bonuses in order to compensate for gaps in your build or to benefit your recovery and regen.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I wouldn't be surprised. If I played PvP at all, I probably would've been campaigning against the changes. But I think it would've been hypocritical of me to say that changes were bad to a system I didn't care about. I figured that the PvPers had more weight in that department.
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To Tokyo:
Actually, the original CoH is what you want. At that time, everybody had the same stuffs. I bet the design is that players can have fun through combat, rather than having "fun" (it should be satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, but most people also call it fun) through equipping a character.
The good thing about the original design is that players won't feel gimped. The bad thing is that players can't be uber. And also, there is nothing for a level 50 to do. With the advent of IO and market, CoH is no longer the same. Now, the good thing is that level 50 can have something to work on, so the uber can be uber. The bad thing is that some players become relatively under-performing. Fortunately, CoH is still on the casual side among MMOs, a character won't be trash even if it's not well-equipped.
I don't know, both the old and new systems have their good and bad, but you can only pick one. From the dev point of view, they try to make people subscribe longer. So, it's natural that they want to introduce things (IO in this case) that can make players work on for a extended period of time. Maybe, IO does not have much to do with game design, but merely a tool for the company to sustain a steady inflow of money. 
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Actually, it isn't what they'd want. Back in those days, there were only a few specific powersets and builds people wanted to team with, and anything they felt was gimp had a lot of trouble getting teams because they had no way to compensate for a choice they made when they created the character and can't alter.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
Actually, the original CoH is what you want. At that time, everybody had the same stuffs.
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Nowadays, even without IOs, only very rarely does anyone care what powersets you have, since the powers have been much better balanced, and people have gotten over the prejudice, because seeing IOs and SOs together has taught them that anyone can be effective with any powerset.
I'll let you in on a secret. I have characters that I've leveled all the way to 32 without investing in more than a few key enhancers. Over half the slots were empty or red. I still got on teams, and I still got compliments on my play, and I still made friends, even with people who had been spending time and money on IOing their characters. I wasn't deadweight, I wasn't a drain on the teams, but I also didn't need something like DR to make things "fair" for me versus the people with better gear.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
To Tokyo:
Actually, the original CoH is what you want. At that time, everybody had the same stuffs. I bet the design is that players can have fun through combat, rather than having "fun" (it should be satisfaction and sense of accomplishment, but most people also call it fun) through equipping a character. The good thing about the original design is that players won't feel gimped. The bad thing is that players can't be uber. And also, there is nothing for a level 50 to do. With the advent of IO and market, CoH is no longer the same. Now, the good thing is that level 50 can have something to work on, so the uber can be uber. The bad thing is that some players become relatively under-performing. Fortunately, CoH is still on the casual side among MMOs, a character won't be trash even if it's not well-equipped. I don't know, both the old and new systems have their good and bad, but you can only pick one. From the dev point of view, they try to make people subscribe longer. So, it's natural that they want to introduce things (IO in this case) that can make players work on for a extended period of time. Maybe, IO does not have much to do with game design, but merely a tool for the company to sustain a steady inflow of money. |
I probably would have liked old CoH. I have been kicked a few times from teams because of my build wasn't up to the teams standards.
a week or two ago my emp was kicked from a posi because they said my recharge would be too low and they wanted a emp that would perform better. meaning one with more recharge bonuses.
recently I was kicked from a lRSF because my dom wasn't a perma dom.
While Aett says bonuses don't effect how much more useful or effective you are on a team, I disagree. Bonuses do offer a large advantage and many times they are a deciding factor on whether you get chosen for a team and how well you run PvE content.
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No, you didn't HAVE something like DR in order to balance IOed builds vs SOed builds back then. Now you do. |
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Actually, it isn't what they'd want. Back in those days, there were only a few specific powersets and builds people wanted to team with, and anything they felt was gimp had a lot of trouble getting teams because they had no way to compensate for a choice they made when they created the character and can't alter.
Nowadays, even without IOs, only very rarely does anyone care what powersets you have, since the powers have been much better balanced, and people have gotten over the prejudice, because seeing IOs and SOs together has taught them that anyone can be effective with any powerset. I'll let you in on a secret. I have characters that I've leveled all the way to 32 without investing in more than a few key enhancers. Over half the slots were empty or red. I still got on teams, and I still got compliments on my play, and I still made friends, even with people who had been spending time and money on IOing their characters. I wasn't deadweight, I wasn't a drain on the teams, but I also didn't need something like DR to make things "fair" for me versus the people with better gear. |
I don't see how it is unfair to balance the PvE game now when they have the ability to do it.
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You have been teaming with jerks. Again: not the Dev's faults.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
I probably would have liked old CoH. I have been kicked a few times from teams because of my build wasn't up to the teams standards.
a week or two ago my emp was kicked from a posi because they said my recharge would be too low and they wanted a emp that would perform better. meaning one with more recharge bonuses. recently I was kicked from a lRSF because my dom wasn't a perma dom. While Aett says bonuses don't effect how much more useful or effective you are on a team, I disagree. Bonuses do offer a large advantage and many times they are a deciding factor on whether you get chosen for a team and how well you run PvE content. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Again, I never said it was. But the devs are capable of implementing a feature that would make bonuses less of an advantage.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
You have been teaming with jerks. Again: not the Dev's faults.
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by the way, you didn't answer my previous post:
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| I'm going go out on a limb here and assume you have a couple of IOed out builds with quite a few bonuses in order to compensate for gaps in your build or to benefit your recovery and regen. |
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So screw everyone, just because you're not happy?|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
Again, I never said it was. But the devs are capable of implementing a feature that would make bonuses less of an advantage.
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| by the way, you didn't answer my previous post: |
1) I have some builds, with IOs used to plug some holes, or to make them more effective.
2) I have some builds, with fun IOs used to make the character more fun, but probably less effective overall. Things such as +KB effects on melee characters, and the like.
3) I have other builds, including my namesake character, that use only basic IOs, and don't use sets at all.
4) I have other builds, that still use only SOs.
I have never had a problem getting or staying on a team with any of these characters.
Also, trying to get PvP changes reverted or even changed because the system isn't considered popular by the PvE crowd here probably isn't going to work.
In PvP, you do need much more balancing than in PvE. In PvP, having someone that always wins doesn't work. In PvE, everyone always wins, really, so it's not a problem, and you want to be able to have different challenge levels for everyone.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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i13
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Originally Posted by Bitt_Player
Can you back this up with anything resembling factual information?
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So yes, it does make a significant difference. While it may not be the Devs fault, I believe they (the devs) agree that new players and players that don't want to IO out their builds should be just as effective as those that do want to IO out their toons.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AS UBER AS THE MOST FULLY IO'd OUT CHARACTERS OUT THERE.
You just don't. You might want to be, but you don't need to be. New characters of any game should understand that somebody that's been playing for 5 years longer than them is probably going to have better stuff. As long as they know that they can get there someday should be fine for most new players.
Then, you get the fact that each AT will not be as effective in every situation as another, and then sets within that AT being just as variable. In short: you will never have a situation in an MMO where every character is just as effective as every other character. It's not going to happen, and really, IMO, shouldn't happen.
It's also still not fair to those players who have worked more to get their characters to where they are to have that stripped from them, and you know it.
You're asking for those who have spent more time and/or effort, and have made their characters better, to be stripped of a lot of that, while bringing up characters that haven't done the same things. You're basically creating a situation where there is no payoff to doing the harder things in the game. As such, everyone would only be doing the easy, non-challenging things. In this case, GR would be harder than the current game. People would, therefore, flock to the old content, instead of the new, because their characters are better there. That's not a good way to promote a new game, by having your existing character base stay out of it.
Casual players don't need purple sets on their characters. Any player who wants Purple Sets on their character is not a casual player, they are a hardcore player. Because Casual players don't need them. Hardcore players are usually willing to accept that they need to do work to get to that point.
A player who says that they should get equal payout without the work isn't a regular player. They are a player with a sense of entitlement. Nothing more.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus