Are PvP drops actually helping PvP?
By
Alpha_Zulu,
Posted on: 2009-11-26 21:20 in The Market and Inventions
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That is why I put the * in to show that it doesn't matter if you are literally teamed up, or working as a team. The results are the same.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
As you point out in a footnote, the anti-spike code would, indeed, hinder your ability to assist your Dominator friend even if you are not "teamed" with him in the literal sense of being part of a team. Attacking his target is "teaming up" to defeat that foe.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Penalizing the ability of a team to combine fire is an attack on something I consider a fundamental team PvP tactic, in all multiplayer games I have ever played that actually involved the idea of attacking targets.
Obviously, the anti-spike code does not hider all the benefits of teaming. For example, it does nothing to hinder the defensive benefits, nor does it prevent offensive ally buffs. Despite this, I considered it an attempt to eliminate a core offensive benefit of teaming - having multiple people do things to a target at the same time. Having been a player of many team FPS games, the design philosophy that such a change suggested thoroughly disgusted me, despite the fact that I rarely ever PvPd before I13. My prior lack of PvP was due to lack of interest, as opposed to the outright distaste that such changes fostered for me. |
Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. I usually solo on my damage dealers (I only have a couple) or team up with my support toons (My favorites to play, and I have many). I am not always targeting the targets that my teammates are attacking. I guess I see it more as a tactic, rather than a core offensive benefit.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
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I think that in and of itself, that will only get the people who currently pvp to have an easier time without transferring to test. To bring new people into the pvp fold, you need to change the initial experience. In that sense the most realistic measure would be something that creates teams rather than leaves a loner who just wants to try it out at the mercy of teams.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Your entire last paragraph is why you're never going to see what you're asking for. PVP will NEVER be THAT attractive in this game.
As I stated before, the more REALISTIC suggestion (always has been) is for cross server pvp. Or at least cross server arenas, if not zones. This argument has been going for years. The number of folks who started playing this game cause it was the only super hero mmo on the market, was divergent from Evercrack, was divergent from typical fantasy has always been > than those who came for an excellent pvp system. |
Make something that is functionally like WoW's battlegrounds, Runescape's castle siege, etc. THAT is the way to get people to enjoy the experience on a first try.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I consider it such a fundamental tactic that I consider an attempt to disable it to be an attempt to disable the use of tactics.
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Originally Posted by Computer
Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. I usually solo on my damage dealers (I only have a couple) or team up with my support toons (My favorites to play, and I have many). I am not always targeting the targets that my teammates are attacking. I guess I see it more as a tactic, rather than a core offensive benefit.
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Agreed: the only reason non-coordinated damage spikes result in kills in zone PvP these days is because heal decay and travel suppression make it as simple as clicking buttons until the target dies - there's no need to lock targets and spike at the same time... this is somewhat less true in the arena, but given that most evenly-matched team events are low-scoring it's very unlikely that people will see PvP IO drops in the arena.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I consider it such a fundamental tactic that I consider an attempt to disable it to be an attempt to disable the use of tactics.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Sun Tzu: The art of war|
Originally Posted by Computer
I don't disagree that teams who target the same target when they attack were penalized, however not all teams (Or people working together that don't have to be literally teamed up) use this tactic. Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. I usually solo on my damage dealers (I only have a couple) or team up with my support toons (My favorites to play, and I have many). I am not always targeting the targets that my teammates are attacking. I guess I see it more as a tactic, rather than a core offensive benefit. |
8. It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten
to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one,
to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army
into two.
9. If equally matched, we can offer battle;
if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy;
if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.
30. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong
and to strike at what is weak.
(30. refers to numerical superiority and is from the section
weak points and strong. The entire section can be reduced to
Get there firstest, with the mostest and beat on them)
http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html
So much time, so little change.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
This is why most games with PvP have PvP minigames. These solve several problems:
1. Easy to understand. 2. Tiered difficulty in that some are for nOObs and some are for 1337 players. (never works out as experienced PvPers love the challenge of making the meanest possible character in the weakest possible tier) 3. Fast start (you enter the game and fighting starts immediately or very swiftly) 4. Short/fixed duration with an actual end point and a clear winner/loser 5. Game creates teams of equal size on both sides so you are not thrown to the sharks all by yourself (though premades tend to obliterate pugs when they end up against each other in those games that make it possible). CoH PvP has none of these advantages. I've tried to PvP, but I actually can't figure out how the Arena works (this is very bad from an encouraging people to try standpoint), and most of the time in the zones you run around doing PvE looking for anyone else. When you find them, they often aren't interested in PvP and are just there for the badges, or Shivans, or Nukes, etc. to be used in PvE elsewhere. What CoH has: 1. Hard to understand, & totally different rules from PvE 2. Tiered in the sense of having level breaks, but uber-sets give dedicated PvPers far more power than experimenters 3. No "start" just wander in, wander around and hope you find someone else who may or may not exist in the zone 4. No "end point" you just go until you are done. No "winner" no "loser" except for a specific round/bout. 5. Teams happily hunt down and gank loners. No balance or assisted team making. Runescape has its castle war, with a very cool mechanic with "law vs chaos" as the two sides, and people can sign up as "balance" who will be used to ensure both sides have equal numbers and thus ensure the game starts faster. Virtually every MMO with PvP has a variation of "capture the flag", Conan has city sieges, Lineage had castle sieges, WoW has the different battlegrounds plus it's Arena which works quite well for idiots etc. PvP minigames are the standard, and they work for a lot of different MMOs. In my opinion, the least work to make this happen would seem to be taking Recluse's Victory out of the world as a free-for-all zone and make it into a minigame only accessible during PvP matches. Copy the signup scenarios from other MMOs and from the CoH Arena. Click interested and go back to playing. When enough people on both sides are up for a match, boom it starts and you teleport onto the map. Fist side to spawn and drop Statesman/Recluse wins, everyone on the winning side gets merits and is returned to the portals in Peregrine or Grandville, or the arena of "choice" (including Monkey Bar in Pocket D). Choice marked off because villains don't have any =). Make it cross server. Once Going Rogue comes out let the "middle of the road" style characters who can access both Paragon and Rogue Isles sign up not for Good or Evil, but rather a mish-mash to ensure there are equal numbers on each side. Some form of balance ala the Runescape model. This will speed up the queues and ensure some randomness. No amount of "carrot on a stick" will work with the current "show up in the zone and hope something happens" scenario. Even with broken PvP mechanics, people will play a fun game. With "perfect" mechanics not many people will do CoH PvP in the form it currently exists. |
A lot of posters are looking at the bad side of our PvP and what the devs have done. That's ok but to be fair, there have been many ups to the changes applied in i13. For example:
-removed Toggle drops when mezzed.
-removal of break free dependence.
-dmg scaling with in ATs (a variety of corr, troller, defender, blaster and dom sets are viable now)
-lowered the disparity between range and melee with in smaller skirmishes.
-removal of double phasing/hiber
-removed perma caging.
-phased can attack phased
-buffed hover adds a new dimension to PvP that other games don't have (albiet n00bish to a hardcore CoH pvper)
-taunt's -range
-dom dmg scaling and buffs
-squishie resistance armors now have res to all
-squishie def armors have elusivity.
-and aside from all the downside of suppression, suppression does allow runners to get killed by a large team as they should (stalkers are a good example) but at the same time escape is still possible vs. smaller groups or bad groups.
Other than giving us more options in arena that we can turn on and off and certain tweeks to certain powers, PvP doesn't need a complete system overhaul anymore. What it needs is CONTENT!!!!
-New PvP Zones!!
-PvP tokens or usable Rep (what am i supposed to do with 400 rep all the time?)
-A WoW like Battlegrounds type places that's cross server and offers PvE tokens or PvP tokens.
-New Arena Maps and server schedualed and announced tournements that offer PvP tickets/tokens to use toward PvP IOs.
-PvP objective based missions (mayhem missions had huge potential for this) for example sieging an area, capture VIP/item, capturing areas/territories, defeating AVs/Heros, etc.
-Base raiding that gives winners temp buffs/powers.
-536 badges that can only be gained in PvP (yeah im exagerating)
This games PvP has so much potential. so Plz devs we need more PvP CONTENT!!! and yes again some more PvP CONTENT!!!
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One of the goals of the I13 changes was to make things more "balanced" in order to introduce a rewards system and hopefully attract non-PvPers into the PvP game, but as we can see that didn't exactly end well. There are less people PvPing than there were a year ago (unless you look at the Freedom numbers, and even then that may not be true). The system needs to be more similar to PvE (hint: the old system was) in order for PvEers to know what's going on before they get stomped. Some changes were good, yes, but the majority were simply bad (travel suppression, heal decay, base resistances tied in with DR). The game mechanics need to work well before a sizeable population begins to form, but at this point I doubt the devs care about population so long as PvP fits their vision of "balance." Does this PvP system have potential? Meh, not really. Only way it will have potential is if you start pulling things out of it instead of adding things to it (HD and TS, I'm looking at you), but as that's not how things around here usually work, I can't see PvP doing much more than stagnating in its current state. Minigames will likely draw few PvEers in, and those that do will leave just as they do now.
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Originally Posted by Neeto
Other than giving us more options in arena that we can turn on and off and certain tweeks to certain powers, PvP doesn't need a complete system overhaul anymore. What it needs is CONTENT!!!!
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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It needs to be fun first. It has to be able to appeal to a larger population than either the old PvP or the current PvP. If it is something that is felt that should be hard, and on a par with AV soloing, or GM soloing it will attract similar levels of participation.| This games PvP has so much potential. so Plz devs we need more PvP CONTENT!!! and yes again some more PvP CONTENT!!! |
It also wouldn't hurt to have a tutorial instead of the popular "You have walked into a pvp zone, get ready to be attacked"
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woah, you think av soloing is hard?| If it is something that is felt that should be hard, and on a par with AV soloing, or GM soloing it will attract similar levels of participation. |
Edit: Neeto I love you amn but your list is a bit off
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| -removed Toggle drops when mezzed. |
Only defensive ones. Some sets are still much tougher to play because of the way offensive toggles work.
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| -removal of break free dependence. |
I will let you have this one, but to be honest I miss the old system for this. I hate dying because I got mezzed and I can not do anything about it.
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| -dmg scaling with in ATs (a variety of corr, troller, defender, blaster and dom sets are viable now) |
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| -lowered the disparity between range and melee with in smaller skirmishes. |
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| -removal of double phasing/hiber |
Not an i13 change. Also still possible and seen often in zone pvp. The i13 change was being able to attack phased targets if you were also phased.
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| -buffed hover adds a new dimension to PvP that other games don't have (albiet n00bish to a hardcore CoH pvper) |
the fact you have the () part of this about covers it.
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| -taunt's -range |
Honestly maybe the best change in i13 pvp. Still wish the debuff had a tohit check. Autohit debuffs kinda suck.
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| -dom dmg scaling and buffs |
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| -squishie resistance armors now have res to all |
I can agree with this one. Though all it really did was make the game more vanilla. It was nice to stack teams with forts for psi res. Or making sure to go psi mastery for psi res on a defender. It made epic/patron choices mean more than which one does more damage or has hiber in it.
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| -squishie def armors have elusivity. |
Elusvity was introduced in i13 and has been implemented pretty badly in general. I also believe things like force fields and cold dom should grant a small amount of this to help make buffing more attractive in pvp.
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| -and aside from all the downside of suppression, suppression does allow runners to get killed by a large team as they should |
one word sun, chido.
Suppression is a god awful idea with worse implementation. If a melee wants to escape in zones it can be pretty impossible to stop them short of wormhole/tp foe. If a stalker is dying its because he took a risk not because of team size or suppression.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
woah, you think av soloing is hard?
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Compared to soloing PvPers on message boards ?
Yeah the AVs are smarter and don't go shooting themselves in the head as often.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Compared to soloing PvPers on message boards ?
Yeah the AVs are smarter and don't go shooting themselves in the head as often. |
I must say you aren't very good at this sort of thing. I am not to worried about you 'soloing me'. And seeing you think there is any challenge at all in soloing avs at all that pretty much speaks for itself as to how little you grasp any real sense of challenge.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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I agree in general. The issue is that pvp with broken mechanics can still be fun, but Zone PvP for a newb never will be no matter what mechanics are used.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It needs to be fun first. It has to be able to appeal to a larger population than either the old PvP or the current PvP. If it is something that is felt that should be hard, and on a par with AV soloing, or GM soloing it will attract similar levels of participation.
It also wouldn't hurt to have a tutorial instead of the popular "You have walked into a pvp zone, get ready to be attacked" |
For a new player I see no reason to play in the zones, they are frustrating and would remain so even if cross server and with a tutorial. Cross server will make more team ganking of loners. It will make it harder on new players, not more fun. A tutorial will not help this fact. New arena maps will not help either. "perfect" mechanics will not help either.
All of these are great, after the player is no longer a newb. None of them help the newb want to come back a second time.
I stand by my earlier comment:
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| No amount of "carrot on a stick" will work with the current "show up in the zone and hope something happens" scenario. Even with broken PvP mechanics, people will play a fun game. With "perfect" mechanics not many people will do CoH PvP in the form it currently exists. |
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
I must say you aren't very good at this sort of thing. I am not to worried about you 'soloing me'. And seeing you think there is any challenge at all in soloing avs at all that pretty much speaks for itself as to how little you grasp any real sense of challenge.
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Well whatever you say then.
To Con and Mac, I know my post earlier made me sound like i'm a n00b. I think Con knows i've been around pvp since i4, been through the ladder, test, and some other player hosted events, arean drama, freedumb dramas etc. And yeah there were certainly some stuff i said earlier with that "test PvPer" perspective in mind. But most things i said about post i13 PvP came from the a more balanced general population perspective. Most CoH players want only to advance their toons in a certain setting. Story, challenge, game play, and PvP comes second.
For example i've seldom seen anyone sitting near an NPC and reading what they got to say, if there's a team wipe most teams quit, when i use taunt and LoS to tank no one recognizes what i'm doing nor recognizes the fact that CoH is one of the only MMOs that allows players that much freedom in playstyle/tactics. They only want me to run 2 inches in front of an AVs cod piece and get ****** in the face. What we have are a bunch of egocentric sore losers that do not have the ability to take self blame nor responsibility. In order to work around this we need PvP content that allows the losers to blame either a bad situation, bad luck, or "bad" teammates they don't know personally. This way their egos will not be buttt hurt and they'll continue on PvPing and might actually get good at it sometime later. So please read over my earlier post with that in mind.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Compared to soloing PvPers on message boards ?
Yeah the AVs are smarter and don't go shooting themselves in the head as often. |
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Originally Posted by Neeto
What we have are a bunch of egocentric sore losers that do not have the ability to take self blame nor responsibility. In order to work around this we need PvP content that allows the losers to blame either a bad situation, bad luck, or "bad" teammates they don't know personally. This way their egos will not be buttt hurt and they'll continue on PvPing and might actually get good at it sometime later. So please read over my earlier post with that in mind.
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Yep to answer the original posters question that attituded is what PvP IOs have to overcome. And no its not enough incentive.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Compared to soloing PvPers on message boards ?
Yeah the AVs are smarter and don't go shooting themselves in the head as often. |
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Originally Posted by Neeto
What we have are a bunch of egocentric sore losers that do not have the ability to take self blame nor responsibility. In order to work around this we need PvP content that allows the losers to blame either a bad situation, bad luck, or "bad" teammates they don't know personally. This way their egos will not be buttt hurt and they'll continue on PvPing and might actually get good at it sometime later. So please read over my earlier post with that in mind.
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Yep to answer the original posters question that attituded is what PvP IOs have to overcome. And no its not enough incentive. And all the content in the world wouldnt be enough.
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Wow, you're pretty ornery for a guinea pig dressed in LAVENDER! |
Originally Posted by ConFlict
I must say you aren't very good at this sort of thing. I am not to worried about you 'soloing me'. And seeing you think there is any challenge at all in soloing avs at all that pretty much speaks for itself as to how little you grasp any real sense of challenge.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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The problem is that I don't think the PvP Neeto describes will ever attract truly competitive players. It sounds like the kiddie wading pool of PvP for people with fragile egos. IMO, they'd do better to not bother; I think scrapping PvP all together (not going to happen) or letting it fester as it is now (might happen in principle) would actually be superior.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Yep to answer the original posters question that attituded is what PvP IOs have to overcome. And no its not enough incentive. And all the content in the world wouldnt be enough.
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I like Gavin's ideas of teams in zones, though. And goals. My god, does PvP need goals. I hated deathmatch and team deathmatch in FPS games, and considered them as bad for one's IQ. They were good for honing twitch skills if you played them with other good players, and good for the ego if you didn't. The real challenge and thus real enjoyment was always in contests with tactical goals, especially ones that required you to split your team into offense and defense.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Neeto, you are awesome. I just have to say that.| They only want me to run 2 inches in front of an AVs cod piece and get fukked in the face. What we have are a bunch of egocentric sore losers that do not have the ability to take self blame nor responsibility. In order to work around this we need PvP content that allows the losers to blame either a bad situation, bad luck, or "bad" teammates they don't know personally. This way their egos will not be buttt hurt and they'll continue on PvPing and might actually get good at it sometime later. So please read over my earlier post with that in mind. |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The problem is that I don't think the PvP Neeto describes will ever attract truly competitive players. It sounds like the kiddie wading pool of PvP for people with fragile egos. IMO, they'd do better to not bother; I think scrapping PvP all together (not going to happen) or letting it fester as it is now (might happen in principle) would actually be superior.
I like Gavin's ideas of teams in zones, though. And goals. My god, does PvP need goals. I hated deathmatch and team deathmatch in FPS games, and considered them as bad for one's IQ. They were good for honing twitch skills if you played them with other good players, and good for the ego if you didn't. The real challenge and thus real enjoyment was always in contests with tactical goals, especially ones that required you to split your team into offense and defense. |
And yet, capture the flag is always popular in every setting. It's silly, and doesn't make a lot of sense, but I would love to have a capture the flag pvp game in CoX. Cross server, 15-man teams, no NPCs or very damn few of them, and just pound the snot out of each other over and over. I think I would never PvE again if City got something like this. And I don't think I'm alone.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Only if both sides get xp. Flag capturers a Large amount. Flag losers a smaller amount. Maybe a mission bonus and a 1/2 mission bonus scaled to your individual level (or sk level if they like).
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
And yet, capture the flag is always popular in every setting. It's silly, and doesn't make a lot of sense, but I would love to have a capture the flag pvp game in CoX. Cross server, 15-man teams, no NPCs or very damn few of them, and just pound the snot out of each other over and over. I think I would never PvE again if City got something like this. And I don't think I'm alone. |
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Even though Neeto had some stuff wrong he is still pretty much right. Its not the players fault that there is such a difference between pve and pvp. And anyone who fools themselves into thinking there are not arrogant lippy people in pve that could run people off they are just fooling themselves. It not attitudes it mind sets in gerneral. The problem is that most people get to feel god mode in pve and can easily get wrecked by something with some actual intelligence that can be easily defeated. Those people who enjoy the laid back casual pace of pve will never EVER get into pvp regardless the changes that can be made or incentives added.
As for why I am ornery, I am a fricking guinea pig in a lavender suit. How could I not be ornery?
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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AV soloing is expensive and may require sacrificing performance in the AoE-centric "regular" game, and gives lousy rewards for the time invested, that's why few people do it.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It needs to be fun first. It has to be able to appeal to a larger population than either the old PvP or the current PvP. If it is something that is felt that should be hard, and on a par with AV soloing, or GM soloing it will attract similar levels of participation.
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| It also wouldn't hurt to have a tutorial instead of the popular "You have walked into a pvp zone, get ready to be attacked" |
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Create a mechanic whereby a new player is put on a team through no activity of his/her own (such as in WoW's battlegrounds) and matched against a team of equal size with a clear start point, stop point, and goal. Let them bash each other to bits. This is fun for new players, this gets them to come back. Wander around the zone and getting ganked by people better than you in large groups convinces them to never come back.
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I'd be willing to bet that most players simply don't get enough enjoyment out of beating up other people to make it worth their while.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Only if both sides get xp. Flag capturers a Large amount. Flag losers a smaller amount. Maybe a mission bonus and a 1/2 mission bonus scaled to your individual level (or sk level if they like).
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WoW actually did get this right, through the battlegrounds. You must PvP to get PvP stuff, some of which is helpful in PvE. You gain tangible progress toward this stuff just for showing up. So since you're there, why not participate to the best of your ability? Why not try to win, since you gain more progress if you do?
And no, I am by no means suggesting that PvP stuff should be untradeable like in WoW. I think that being able to accumulate credit toward an IO that currently sells for hundreds of millions, if not billions, of inf would be enough of an incentive for enough people to make the system worthwhile.
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
Even though Neeto had some stuff wrong he is still pretty much right. Its not the players fault that there is such a difference between pve and pvp. And anyone who fools themselves into thinking there are not arrogant lippy people in pve that could run people off they are just fooling themselves. It not attitudes it mind sets in gerneral. The problem is that most people get to feel god mode in pve and can easily get wrecked by something with some actual intelligence that can be easily defeated. Those people who enjoy the laid back casual pace of pve will never EVER get into pvp regardless the changes that can be made or incentives added.
As for why I am ornery, I am a fricking guinea pig in a lavender suit. How could I not be ornery? |
I have to admit, i think ur right con i'm just being spiteful. though, to be fair, players can still turn up diff and especially at low to mid levels it's not godmode. The devs just doesn't have an idea of what players want so they give them everything and and dumb down complicated things like PvP, ofcourse. But if they invest time and work into PvP content and fix a few powers, there'll be room for the 1337s and the noobs or even a mix. So the same player choice concept that went into PvE could be made for PvP with added content. And yeah dude they are not gonna overhaul the PvP system again, work with what you got.
Quote:
if you have to "overcome" other players' attitudes, you should be pve-ing against NPCs that don't make fun of you for being bad and needing io's to solo an AV.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Yep to answer the original posters question that attituded is what PvP IOs have to overcome. And no its not enough incentive.
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My point is that the Spiking, multiple people attacking the same target, was the target of the Anti-Spike code. Spiking is something teams and non teams can do, and things that teams and non teams can choose not to do.
The Anti-Spike code impaired the ability of multiple people attacking the same target.
Penalizing the ability of a team to combine fire is an attack on something I consider a fundamental team PvP tactic, in all multiplayer games I have ever played that actually involved the idea of attacking targets.
As you point out in a footnote, the anti-spike code would, indeed, hinder your ability to assist your Dominator friend even if you are not "teamed" with him in the literal sense of being part of a team. Attacking his target is "teaming up" to defeat that foe.
Obviously, the anti-spike code does not hider all the benefits of teaming. For example, it does nothing to hinder the defensive benefits, nor does it prevent offensive ally buffs. Despite this, I considered it an attempt to eliminate a core offensive benefit of teaming - having multiple people do things to a target at the same time. Having been a player of many team FPS games, the design philosophy that such a change suggested thoroughly disgusted me, despite the fact that I rarely ever PvPd before I13. My prior lack of PvP was due to lack of interest, as opposed to the outright distaste that such changes fostered for me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA