Are PvP drops actually helping PvP?
By
Alpha_Zulu,
Posted on: 2009-11-26 21:20 in The Market and Inventions
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I like Gavin's ideas of teams in zones, though. And goals. My god, does PvP need goals. I hated deathmatch and team deathmatch in FPS games, and considered them as bad for one's IQ. They were good for honing twitch skills if you played them with other good players, and good for the ego if you didn't. The real challenge and thus real enjoyment was always in contests with tactical goals, especially ones that required you to split your team into offense and defense. |
Its something that sounds good but in practice it gets hairy. To make it work you need an activity with a definite start and definite finish, then you need two people that can organize two teams relatively quickly so that it actually happens. The teams then need to be not completely lopsided. Fail at any of the above the whole thing goes down the tubes.
Quote:
I'd actually argue what Conflict said above, that no incentive would make pvp worthwhile to those that simply don't want to lose. The goal shouldn't be to try to lure this mythical "new pvp audience". They tried that with I13. Was a bad idea when they tried it with shivans and warburg nukes, is a bad idea when they tried it with I13, and will be a bad idea of they try it with yet another silly lure.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
And no, I am by no means suggesting that PvP stuff should be untradeable like in WoW. I think that being able to accumulate credit toward an IO that currently sells for hundreds of millions, if not billions, of inf would be enough of an incentive for enough people to make the system worthwhile.
|
EDIT: My suggestion/addition to the capture the flag thing was assuming that the capture the flag situation was for folks already pvping. I honestly don't think capture the flag would do jack to lure pure pvers.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
All that above tells me that it couldn't be done in zone. It'd have to be an arena type thing. But then you get into the issue of what happens if not enough players queue up for any one side.
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Its something that sounds good but in practice it gets hairy. To make it work you need an activity with a definite start and definite finish, then you need two people that can organize two teams relatively quickly so that it actually happens. The teams then need to be not completely lopsided. Fail at any of the above the whole thing goes down the tubes.
|
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
The part about team organization is false. If it were true, most online team FPS games would fail. See: Counterstrike.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Its something that sounds good but in practice it gets hairy. To make it work you need an activity with a definite start and definite finish, then you need two people that can organize two teams relatively quickly so that it actually happens. The teams then need to be not completely lopsided. Fail at any of the above the whole thing goes down the tubes.
|
You don't need singleton leaders to organize teams that way. At first, when most people are n00bs, sure, having someone "in charge" who knows what they're doing is helpful. After a while, most people know what needs doing by rote, and someone does it. If something isn't being done, someone switches to doing it. If too much hot-dogging is going on and not enough people take on roles, that team loses, the event ends, and starts over, possibly with the teams re-mixed. It works great and has worked in dozens upon dozens of games. What matters is that it's engaging and fun, and people will make it happen.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
In FPS games, if the team doesn't have what is needed anyone can fill the gap. Don't have a sniper ? the next guy gets the sniper character, dont have a medic next guy gets it. Your build is never not right and the equipment is always up to snuff. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The part about team organization is false. If it were true, most online team FPS games would fail. See: Counterstrike.
You don't need singleton leaders to organize teams that way. At first, when most people are n00bs, sure, having someone "in charge" who knows what they're doing is helpful. After a while, most people know what needs doing by rote, and someone does it. If something isn't being done, someone switches to doing it. If too much hot-dogging is going on and not enough people take on roles, that team loses, the event ends, and starts over, possibly with the teams re-mixed. It works great and has worked in dozens upon dozens of games. What matters is that it's engaging and fun, and people will make it happen. |
Here, You will get teams where the players are already not up to snuff and quite possibly no one has whats needed to even begin to compensate. The TLs at the very least need to be able to negotiate a setup that is reasonable.
You're making huge assumptions there about what's needed to function as part of a team. Especially with something as large as a team of 8. Sure, in this environment, getting a team of all melee or something might be a problem. A good system for letting people rotate in a different character on join or after the fact would be a big help.
There are plenty of FPS where people can select loadouts and gear that set them up for niche roles, some of which might be important to have and/or play well to do well at certain maps or types of mission. Team leaders not required, and frankly, in a pub environment, it's practically always obnoxious to have someone who thinks they should be "running" the team. It's usually plenty for someone to point out "hey, no one is guarding our back door" or "they don't have anyone protecting the flag from a stealther". Thinking people need a team leader in a pub is just not reasonable. In competition, absolutely. In fact, most competition teams I played on had two leads, one for offense and one for defense.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
There have been two working solutions to this with which I have direct experience:|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
All that above tells me that it couldn't be done in zone. It'd have to be an arena type thing. But then you get into the issue of what happens if not enough players queue up for any one side.
|
#1: WoW's solution: Cross-server battlegroups to increase the number of people in the Queue at any one time combined with a mechanic where you sign up and run away to quest, etc. When enough people are signed up you are taken out of your current team and mission and teleported directly into the battleground.
#2: Runescape's solution: three sides: Law - Chaos - Balance. Balance signups are randomly split among Law and Chaos to even out the sides and ensure less wait times. In practice about half of all people just jump into balance and as a result there are almost immediate start times.
As to the comment about needing to organize a group: None of the games I've played required it. Sure it helps and that was the whole argument behind "premades have an unfair advantage over pugs" that tore through WoW for over a year. Some attempts were made to cancel it out, such as breaking up teams taht sign up together, etc. But in the end, premades are organized and therefore have an advantage, but a good chunk of the PvPers are casual players just looking to have fun and it works fine. You run around like an idiot and beat the snot out of other idiots. A small percentage of the people are professionals and they get most of the kills and on a team of 15 two of them are enough to win the game. The argument about organization and role specialties has never been an issue except in very organized competitions like strict arena ladders or the lineage castle sieges or Shadow Bane's big guild city assaults. In team mini-games, organization helps but is in no way required for fun and rewards.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
What I was describing were the barest minimums for actually having a team that works as a team. Now if performing well isn't something that the people playing care about, and they don't mind not only losing but humiliating defeats it doesn't matter. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You're making huge assumptions there about what's needed to function as part of a team. Especially with something as large as a team of 8. Sure, in this environment, getting a team of all melee or something might be a problem. A good system for letting people rotate in a different character on join or after the fact would be a big help.
|
Its bad enough in this game that there can be overwhelming differences in build. The other day I saw two teams in the arena going at it. On one side you had a psi/mm blaster, and a fire/dev vs a fire/regen and fire/em. At first glance glance you would think well not so bad a match but if you looked at their builds, you would have seen teem A were both munitions and had all the aoe powers they could get. If you looked at team b ? you would have seen that the blaster had the ice/cold epic had hoarfrost, hibernate, had the concealment pool and the fire regen was well a fire regen. You toss in the fact that team as far as i could see was playing as 2 people not a team well it was down in flames for them.
Seeing as a team in this game can have even greater advantages than just the in game material, yeah you would like some balancing. Especially in a situation where you are going to have a few people that know the score and the bulk just wandering in won't.
Quote:
| There are plenty of FPS where people can select loadouts and gear that set them up for niche roles, some of which might be important to have and/or play well to do well at certain maps or types of mission. Team leaders not required, and frankly, in a pub environment, it's practically always obnoxious to have someone who thinks they should be "running" the team. It's usually plenty for someone to point out "hey, no one is guarding our back door" or "they don't have anyone protecting the flag from a stealther". Thinking people need a team leader in a pub is just not reasonable. In competition, absolutely. In fact, most competition teams I played on had two leads, one for offense and one for defense. |
Its especially true if goals are included into game play that are more complex than king of the hill
Quote:
No, they're not. If you don't know how good teams can be played in pub environments without a team leader, I question how much playtime you have with online team games.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
What I was describing were the barest minimums for actually having a team that works as a team.
|
The assertion is, and as far as I know, always has been, completely false.
A team with no leadership can fall flat on its face. A team with no leadership does not automatically fall flat on its face. Moreover, such teams do not fall flat on their faces unless the majority of people on the team are too noobish to know what needs to be done. In every game I have played, people familiar with the gametype and the map in question picks up roles that need doing. If this random assignment doesn't work out, someone usually changes what they were doing, since it usually means some other role has a glut of people doing it.
Pub games just don't have leaders. It's not the norm, and it's almost always annoying when someone tries to pick up that role.
Quote:
| They are required once one side has one. Its an enormous advantage. |
Quote:
| I also don't see the distinction between a TL and someone who is gently reminding people that if things don't get done they are going to lose. |
Quote:
| Its especially true if goals are included into game play that are more complex than king of the hill |
Sure, noobs coming in often had no idea what to do, or sometimes why their side lost. If they asked, people told them. If one side was getting whomped, good sports would switch sides. In the end, it worked out, and never with a team leader, unless it was competitive play.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I am not going to go into argument by insult, or appeal to authority for this. I have no idea how anyone can say a mob will perform as well as a team. Teamwork is such a deciding factor in almost any sport, that more often than not it allows inferior individual players to win against teams of superior players. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
No, they're not. If you don't know how good teams can be played in pub environments without a team leader, I question how much playtime you have with online team games.
|
As to the rest, The pub situation for FPS where someone posts a server to the public list and random people are just walking in is not the situation we would have here. Its a false comparison. In that situation you are drawing from a different demographic and everyone is at least starting the matches with the same levels of equipment.
Here you would be setting up a situation where you would not have incredible disparities in ingame equipment, but also the additional disparity of actual teams fighting mobs and out of game advantages piled on top of that such as voice communication for the team.
You make the claim to great online game experience, you should know perfectly well that the organized teams will camp a server and just nail the mobs of noobs that come in. This is exactly what happened with the zones here when there were enough people.
Quote:
Which, incidentally, is probably the reason they were working on anti-spike code: the goal of the I13 changes was to create an environment less conducive to driving away new and casual PvPers. Spiking gives the target a feeling of helplessness. This isn't an RTS-- if the no-brainer strategy is to spike a particular target, that target will be frustrated and feel like they can't contribute. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You make the claim to great online game experience, you should know perfectly well that the organized teams will camp a server and just nail the mobs of noobs that come in. This is exactly what happened with the zones here when there were enough people.
|
Early on after its introduction, my SG did some zone PvP, and had a lot of fun until we encountered a skilled team that kept spiking our Defenders. The Defenders weren't having fun, so they then left and got other ATs, lowering the team's performance overall due to lack of buffs, and it went downhill from there.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
It's not an insult to call into question what appears to be obvious ignorance. If you cannot accept the heat of being called on your claims, you should not be in the kitchen.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I am not going to go into argument by insult, or appeal to authority for this.
|
Quote:
| I have no idea how anyone can say a mob will perform as well as a team. Teamwork is such a deciding factor in almost any sport, that more often than not it allows inferior individual players to win against teams of superior players. |
Quote:
| As to the rest, The pub situation for FPS where someone posts a server to the public list and random people are just walking in is not the situation we would have here. Its a false comparison. In that situation you are drawing from a different demographic and everyone is at least starting the matches with the same levels of equipment. |
Will a more organized team be likely to defeat one with no organization? Yes. This hardly implies that pub play of goal-driven PvP gametypes would end up requiring teams to function or for people to participate. Again, dozens of games and innumerable teams have shown that this isn't how things align in pub play, even with very demanding mission types.
Quote:
| You make the claim to great online game experience, you should know perfectly well that the organized teams will camp a server and just nail the mobs of noobs that come in. This is exactly what happened with the zones here when there were enough people. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
kinda funny watching PVE-ers talk about how to get people to PVP.
HEY GUIZE NEWS FLASH, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN I13. SOME PVER THOUGHT HE COULD MAKE PEOPLE PVP. WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG.
when catering to a pvp audience, you don't pull from inside the game. you market yourself to pvpers as a whole, not to lolzy soccer moms concerned with character progression and b movie story lines (catch the reference? good for you).
Trust me, I don't think many, if any, of the people who don't PvP now are going to start even if they manage the miracle of fixing it. Other posters have covered well how people who love PvE here aren't likely to enjoy PvP here, no matter how good it is.
Just because I PvE here doesn't mean I didn't PvP in other games before I ever came here. When I want to play against players, I know what I think is fun and what works. Even at its most interesting in terms of mechanics, IMO PvP here was hamstrung by lack of the things I enjoy in terms of PvP. Specifically, everything but base raids was a variation on (team) deathmatch. Fighting a real human is cool. Fighting a team of real humans to see who can first achieve a goal besides last-man-standing is really cool.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Your heat is that of a thousand slowly melting ice cubes. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's not an insult to call into question what appears to be obvious ignorance. If you cannot accept the heat of being called on your claims, you should not be in the kitchen.
|
So far you have been completely unable to make a case on the basis of any kind of fact, and have resorted to using yourself as an authority and making insults.
Quote:
|
A team does not require a leader to function as a team. |
It refutes itself. Or are we going to go back to where winning is not considered a need ?
Quote:
| This is the fundamental flaw in your repeated claims. I have virtually never been on a pub team where there was any designated leader, and I have been on countless teams that operated effectively as a team. This is in response to your claims that goal-oriented PvP playtypes would not work because they would require team leaders to organize effective team play. |
Quote:
| I'm thinking bigger than deathmatch with flags. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by black_barrier
kinda funny watching PVE-ers talk about how to get people to PVP.
HEY GUIZE NEWS FLASH, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN I13. SOME PVER THOUGHT HE COULD MAKE PEOPLE PVP. WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG. when catering to a pvp audience, you don't pull from inside the game. you market yourself to pvpers as a whole, not to lolzy soccer moms concerned with character progression and b movie story lines (catch the reference? good for you). |
Real PvPers play FPS games. They don't need to start the game with an Aimbot running and the BFG in their hands.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Real PvPers play FPS games. They don't need to start the game with an Aimbot running and the BFG in their hands.
|
Defeine real pvpers for me please. Then explain to me if thats how you reall feel why is this thread even still going, because at this point you are literally the only person on your side of the discussion to keep it going.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
Quote:
.. what the heck is a "real PvPer?"|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Real PvPers play FPS games. They don't need to start the game with an Aimbot running and the BFG in their hands.
|
Wow, that's scary. Conflict and I were on the same wave-length. Dirty mind reading PvPer.
Quote:
Whatever you say
|
Originally Posted by ConFlict
Defeine real pvpers for me please. Then explain to me if thats how you reall feel why is this thread even still going, because at this point you are literally the only person on your side of the discussion to keep it going.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Whatever you say
|
Your replies to me do very good at reflecting your side of the arguement. Your entire argument boils down to 'I am right because I think I am right'. Ever word you have spoke that has been shot down you choose to ignore and carry on. You have been shot down by cox pvpers. You have been shot down by fps pvpers. You have been shot down by pvers. The fact that you still bother to try to act like you have a leg to stand on shows you have amazing stamina and a really thick head. With that kind of effort and energy imagine if you applied it to actually doing something besides being wrong.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
Quote:
you dont pvp in this game, shut the **** up before i shove my proverbial boot down your throat.
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Whatever you say
|
Quote:
You could even say he'd make a great post-i13 PvPer, eh, eh, eh, COnflict,eh?
|
Originally Posted by ConFlict
Your replies to me do very good at reflecting your side of the arguement. Your entire argument boils down to 'I am right because I think I am right'. Ever word you have spoke that has been shot down you choose to ignore and carry on. You have been shot down by cox pvpers. You have been shot down by fps pvpers. You have been shot down by pvers. The fact that you still bother to try to act like you have a leg to stand on shows you have amazing stamina and a really thick head. With that kind of effort and energy imagine if you applied it to actually doing something besides being wrong.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
You could even say he'd make a great post-i13 PvPer, eh, eh, eh, COnflict,eh?
|
Not enough loot to comepete with the pros, git wrekt sun.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ConFlict
Your replies to me do very good at reflecting your side of the arguement. Your entire argument boils down to 'I am right because I think I am right'. Ever word you have spoke that has been shot down you choose to ignore and carry on. You have been shot down by cox pvpers. You have been shot down by fps pvpers. You have been shot down by pvers. The fact that you still bother to try to act like you have a leg to stand on shows you have amazing stamina and a really thick head. With that kind of effort and energy imagine if you applied it to actually doing something besides being wrong.
|
Actually my reply reflects the fact that anyone who can't look up six posts and see a lengthy post in disagreement with their position and then say "you are literaly the only person" isn't likely to respond to anything that disputes their position.
everything else in this game's pve is just button mashing.
until people are forced to COMPETE FOR DROPS in pvp, which isn't the case right now (because the drop rates and timer on rewards is so ungodly broken) pvp will not be popular.