Are PvP drops actually helping PvP?
By
Alpha_Zulu,
Posted on: 2009-11-26 21:20 in The Market and Inventions
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Wait. Wait. Wait for it. . . .|
Originally Posted by macskull
Yeah, I spent a quarter-billion for my Therm on Zephyrs alone. Not fun.
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LoL @ U, I bought on the better side of 20 lowballing at 30 mil each and have them hoarded somewhere to use on my toons.
*Ebil maniacal laff*
I don't remember how many karmas I have.
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Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Is the ski slope comment also in jest? I manage to get all 3 badges with Super Speed only, although the jump pack temp power from the bank missions came in handy to even get better times.
PS. Final prizes are up for the costume contest. |
Quite in earnest. IIRC there was a thread last year complaining that specific powers were required to get the badges. I was a little let down, that power picks were what made the difference.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
No, actually, you are the one mistaken, however, it is completely possible that the phrase is a local phrase, or a phrase simply unknown to those outside the psychological proffession. It is however, something I enjoy using, so continue to nit-pik.
Either way, It still doesn't change the fact that you pretty much have shown 0 understanding of pvp as a whole. So arguing, or even reading ur posts is slightly amusing; however, continue posting, it makes the thread funny. |
I'd expect better needling from someone who had training in psychology. Or at the very least better conversational technique.
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Yeah but I was in a buy it nao mood and had a billion to spend (earned by that toon, not transferred from another), so it wasn't a big deal.
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Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
Wait. Wait. Wait for it. . . .
LoL @ U, I bought on the better side of 20 lowballing at 30 mil each and have them hoarded somewhere to use on my toons. *Ebil maniacal laff* I don't remember how many karmas I have. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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To accumulate money overall, or to get to 50mil per day? I would still be willing to work for 5 minutes a day if I only earned 5mil per day. If I had to work for...30 minutes a day on the market in order to make 50mil per day, I probably would not do it just because I could be doing something I enjoy more that will get me the same, if not better rewards.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Just out of curiosity, how much less willing would you be if it it took you considerably longer ?
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In fact that is exactly what I do. When I have more time to play CoH I don't go to the market and 'play' it more, I get on one of the toons I consider fun and do Task Forces to build up Merits to roll for Rare Recipe drops and hope I get lucky. I also enjoy farming 54 bosses, and doing well written MA content. When I do the MA content I don't even care about the rewards, however that's probably because I know I am getting 50mil per day from doing nothing anyway.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Just how willing do you think other people would or should be ?
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I think people should be willing to do some kind of work in order to get the rewards they want. Off the top of my head the things that will not get you rewards are:
Role Playing- You can potentially get rewards from events where you have to role play (Costume contests).
Mission Architect Missions- If you only do missions where you won't get rewards.
Building Bases- If someone else is getting you the prestige you can spend all day editing your base which will only give you the reward of enjoyment...or fame if you show off to other people.
For everything else (Unless I have missed something), you get transferable rewards of some kind that you can use to get other kinds of rewards that you want. Just keep in mind that not everything will get you the same amount of rewards in the same amount of time.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
I have tried my hand an PvPing not too long ago. PvP isn't my cup of tea but as a player that loves incentives I find the timer to be ridiculous. Much like running a shard TF I don't mind doing content I don't particularly enjoy if the rewards are sufficient. In order for me to go back to PvPing the recipe drop timer needs to be removed.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Originally Posted by Computer
To accumulate money overall, or to get to 50mil per day? I would still be willing to work for 5 minutes a day if I only earned 5mil per day. If I had to work for...30 minutes a day on the market in order to make 50mil per day, I probably would not do it just because I could be doing something I enjoy more that will get me the same, if not better rewards.
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Hmm 30 minutes a day would be too much. Now if it took you 90 days to put together a competitive build ? 120 ?
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I can't speak for anyone else, but if they are anything like me then spending a lot of time at the Market for a small amount of money is not worth it. I think people should be willing to do some kind of work in order to get the rewards they want. Off the top of my head the things that will not get you rewards are: |
You can even find people that have said in these forums that playing the market is the part of the game they find the most fun or its the only reason they have stuck with the game.
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I got mine for free. W00t w00t.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Yeah, I spent a quarter-billion for my Therm on Zephyrs alone. Not fun.
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How much KB protection you got on your therm mac?
41 points before DR which is enough to stop everything short of Gale and Force Bolt, and since those powers are rare in PvP these days it basically means I don't get KB'd, which is reeeeeeally nice. By contrast, my Emp is just running SOs which means I've only got Acro, and he's a pain to play when there's lots of knockback floating around.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I know of several people who used their second builds purely to create a speed runner version of their main badgers.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Quite in earnest. IIRC there was a thread last year complaining that specific powers were required to get the badges. I was a little let down, that power picks were what made the difference.
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Yes specific +jump and +runspeed buffs are required for the fast times.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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This thread has gotten to be like a traffic accident for me. First I find out I want to be poor in the game, and have a sense of entitlement. Now I find out I am a lazy tard.|
Originally Posted by ConFlict
If it takes you hundreds of hours to get a toon pvpable you are either lazy or a tard. Even with the ssk nerf it takes very little time to get a toon to 50. And as I have posted in this thread already you can make a very viable pvp build for 100 mil or less which is a mere drop in the bucket for a 50.
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I am real lucky if I get my toons to 50 in a month of play, and usually by the time they get there they don't have that much loose change. The faster they get there the less likely it is they will have that much money. 100 million isn't a drop in the bucket for most people and these days it will barely buy a top end IO.
I wouldn't be in a PvP zone such as RV if it weren't for the fact that NPCs in PvP zones have a higher rate of purple drop. With the advent of PvP IOs the devs have given me an incentive to farm player controlled pinatas.
Have PvP IO's helped PvP? PvP IO's have made PvP zones all the more rewarding to farm in. hence why I refer to PvP zones more as farming zones.
There are many like me that have been attracted back to PvP zones for the expressed purpose of farming people for IOs while we farm turrets and NPCs for purples.
if it hasn't helped PvP it sure has given us an incentive to farm players. PvP could take a long walk off a short pier for all I care.
I do it for the loot. Players are just an inconvenience.
So, there's your answer.
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That's not what Con is saying. He's saying that if you want to level a character for the express purpose of PvP, it's very possible to do quickly. There are a multitude of ways to do so - hop on free PLs, use a second account to PL yourself, pay a few million to join a farm, find a friend who is willing to PL you. I don't think anyone will disparage you for taking the time to get to 50 at your own pace, but they are saying it's possible to level something quickly if that's your goal.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
This thread has gotten to be like a traffic accident for me. First I find out I want to be poor in the game, and have a sense of entitlement. Now I find out I am a lazy tard.
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| I am real lucky if I get my toons to 50 in a month of play, and usually by the time they get there they don't have that much loose change. The faster they get there the less likely it is they will have that much money. 100 million isn't a drop in the bucket for most people and these days it will barely buy a top end IO. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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To be honest I wouldn't waste my time making a build if I knew it would take me four months to complete it, however that is not because I am not willing to wait that long to IO him out. In four months PvP could be changed...again...and the who knows what the rules would be like then. The person I am IOing out could be completely useless in the 'new' PvP.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Hmm 30 minutes a day would be too much. Now if it took you 90 days to put together a competitive build ? 120 ?
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If I had to wait four months (Way over what I would actually have to wait) to IO out my character completely and I knew that the current PvP was here to stay, I think that would be worth it. And all the while I would be playing that character and having fun with it.
Note: I think it should be mentioned that I do not do things in 'all or nothing' fashion. If I know my build is going to cost 500mil I am not going to wait until I have accumulated that 500mil in order to start IOing/playing that character.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Ok we have something of a changeup in terms here. The things you listed are the rewards for the people that do them. Basebuilding, RPing, Playing MA are considered rewards and fun on their own by the people that enjoy them. If you go over to the MA thread you can find people saying they don't go to any particular effort to level up their characters.
You can even find people that have said in these forums that playing the market is the part of the game they find the most fun or its the only reason they have stuck with the game. |
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
There are different ways you can design any game, and some people will like approach "A" while others will prefer approach "B". The approach the devs here took is that heavy-duty IOing, at least purples specifically, is something you're intended to do as ongoing progression potential for a character that's already 50.
That means that just getting to 50 in a month and then calling it good with whatever money you earn on your way there isn't the approach they envisioned for someone to take to get a baseline 50 to the level of power that lots of IOs can provide. It's very likely it's supposed to be additional "grind" at 50, presumably performed with the 50 in question.
Now, I'll be honest, I get why someone interested in PvP as a primary goal isn't going to like that. I think a lot of serious CoH PvPers consider it annoying enough to have to level to 50 in the first place, and burn through it as fast as they can. For a lot of such folks, PvE play requirements are a barrier to their good times.
Having to play a while for heavy-duty IO access isn't a barrier to me. I'm goal-driven, and with no goals, I'm bored, so having something to work towards is fun for me. I'll play the same character heavily for weeks or even months, at the end of which they are 50, heavily IO'd and ridiculously bad-*** in PvE. Then, I'll play them even longer to enjoy how bad-*** they are. To me, that's a good time, and it's a good time that's very compatible with the goal structure the devs seem to have created.
That said, though, I get the desire of people for something like Guild War's PvP-only builds and loot. If the devs here had gone that way day one, a lot of things might be a lot better. Sadly, day one, I don't think the devs on deck had enough of a clue on what they really wanted PvP to be to come up with something like that. Such a system might work really well here, because we have so many PvErs who don't want to PvP, and I think PvPers who don't want to PvE much are common in many MMOs.
Even if they added in instant level 50s you could only PvP with, that doesn't mean they'd have to go for instant max gear access, and I'd be more than a little surprised if they did. I would expect people to still need to play (and/or play the market) to make progress. The place you have to play might change - I could see PvP-only characters having to PvP to get credit for loot.
Not my call and it would be no skin off my nose if they did, but removing all the progress requirement just doesn't seem our devs' style.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I come to the forums to, since it is a gaming forum, in part to either have fun or be srs about the game, not needle some poor person and make them feel bad. It's not the kind of person I am, but unfortunetly, you showed a very poor character trait of yours.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I'd expect better needling from someone who had training in psychology. Or at the very least better conversational technique.
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Also, the day I have to be completely formal on a gaming forum, I'ld be damned.
So please, remove yourself from the high horse your riding and REALIZE where you are, and what you're doing.
P.S. Reading your posts and not commenting where your experience does not reach would be an awesome way to start; then you can get to the part where you become constructive and not blind to the self-evident.
This thread is dead, A_F is really blind at this point.
Just going back to the OP:
They certainly aren't hurting it.
"I accidently killed Synapse, do we need to restart the mission?" - The Oldest One on Lord Recluses Strike Force
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For awhile I haven't had to work very much to make my points, in this thread. They were pretty simple to begin with, DR wasn't a very good solution to PvPs problems it would have been better to provide much easier means for people to meet the buy in rather than destroying the high end, The largest rewards possible wouldn't be enough to get most people to play in an unpleasant environment. Even if people are losing because they don't have skill, if the playing field isn't level or perceived as level they will blame the gear and not participate. As I said, I haven't had to work very hard, It seems everytime a hardcore pvper posts, they manage to open up new vistas on their stereotype in the game.|
Originally Posted by Not_Epsilon
I come to the forums to, since it is a gaming forum, in part to either have fun or be srs about the game, not needle some poor person and make them feel bad. It's not the kind of person I am, but unfortunetly, you showed a very poor character trait of yours.
Also, the day I have to be completely formal on a gaming forum, I'ld be damned. So please, remove yourself from the high horse your riding and REALIZE where you are, and what you're doing. P.S. Reading your posts and not commenting where your experience does not reach would be an awesome way to start; then you can get to the part where you become constructive and not blind to the self-evident. This thread is dead, A_F is really blind at this point. |
You may be right about me being blind to the real nature of pvp. I had always thought the top end players were different from the griefers that created the stereotype. That you would welcome a fair and balanced game. I guess I was wrong. I used the analogy to chess earlier, the funny thing is that in chess what is used as a handicap is an actual handicap. Material or moves are decisive advantages. One chessmaster I forget the name once said "When I play white, I win because I am playing white, when I play black it is because I am (his name can't recall)". Well DR, or allowing people greater access to the equipment are skill neutral normalizations. If a player has skill they will still win, but the goal of them in either case would be to make certain everyone can have a good time.
As to your comments about a high horse, well, you have declared the thread dead, myself blind, and declared I showed poor character when you were attempting to get under my skin. It seems thats what you are riding is more clydesdale than shetland pony as well.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
There are different ways you can design any game, and some people will like approach "A" while others will prefer approach "B". The approach the devs here took is that heavy-duty IOing, at least purples specifically, is something you're intended to do as ongoing progression potential for a character that's already 50.
That means that just getting to 50 in a month and then calling it good with whatever money you earn on your way there isn't the approach they envisioned for someone to take to get a baseline 50 to the level of power that lots of IOs can provide. It's very likely it's supposed to be additional "grind" at 50, presumably performed with the 50 in question. Now, I'll be honest, I get why someone interested in PvP as a primary goal isn't going to like that. I think a lot of serious CoH PvPers consider it annoying enough to have to level to 50 in the first place, and burn through it as fast as they can. For a lot of such folks, PvE play requirements are a barrier to their good times. Having to play a while for heavy-duty IO access isn't a barrier to me. I'm goal-driven, and with no goals, I'm bored, so having something to work towards is fun for me. I'll play the same character heavily for weeks or even months, at the end of which they are 50, heavily IO'd and ridiculously bad-*** in PvE. Then, I'll play them even longer to enjoy how bad-*** they are. To me, that's a good time, and it's a good time that's very compatible with the goal structure the devs seem to have created. That said, though, I get the desire of people for something like Guild War's PvP-only builds and loot. If the devs here had gone that way day one, a lot of things might be a lot better. Sadly, day one, I don't think the devs on deck had enough of a clue on what they really wanted PvP to be to come up with something like that. Such a system might work really well here, because we have so many PvErs who don't want to PvP, and I think PvPers who don't want to PvE much are common in many MMOs. Even if they added in instant level 50s you could only PvP with, that doesn't mean they'd have to go for instant max gear access, and I'd be more than a little surprised if they did. I would expect people to still need to play (and/or play the market) to make progress. The place you have to play might change - I could see PvP-only characters having to PvP to get credit for loot. Not my call and it would be no skin off my nose if they did, but removing all the progress requirement just doesn't seem our devs' style. |
Who was talking about a free 50 ? I was just talking about letting people have a pvp build that they could IO out however they wanted. Something like a third build the same as the second build is now with the exception that you wouldnt need to worry about acquiring the IOs for it.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You may be right about me being blind to the real nature of pvp. ... I used the analogy to chess earlier, the funny thing is that in chess what is used as a handicap is an actual handicap. Material or moves are decisive advantages.
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| Who was talking about a free 50 ? I was just talking about letting people have a pvp build that they could IO out however they wanted. Something like a third build the same as the second build is now with the exception that you wouldnt need to worry about acquiring the IOs for it. |
What I would suggest you are blind to is that this is antithetical to MMO persistent world games. Players don't expect and don't want to be at the same generic baseline as everyone else. Players expect their investment of time (this can be in the form of gear, levels, accolades or simply hours of experience raising the player's skill level) to actually provide them with some material advantage over a player who has not similarly invested.
It's the same motivation that will make a player spend hours accumulating badges and costume pieces that are strictly for show. In this type of game, being able to differentiate yourself is a huge motivator and this carries over into pvp. It's not a "griefer" mentality, it's the same mentality that drives the rest of the game--the drive to feel like your hero or villain stands out from the crowd and maybe is just a little bit better than the next guy because of the effort you invested.
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Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
I get it. Really, I do. What you're angling towards in this thread is a FPS style environment where each time a player enters into PVP they come in at the same baseline as everyone else. Spawn into RV with your third build full of free PVP gear with no prior investment required to attain it.
What I would suggest you are blind to is that this is antithetical to MMO persistent world games. Players don't expect and don't want to be at the same generic baseline as everyone else. Players expect their investment of time (this can be in the form of gear, levels, accolades or simply hours of experience raising the player's skill level) to actually provide them with some material advantage over a player who has not similarly invested. It's the same motivation that will make a player spend hours accumulating badges and costume pieces that are strictly for show. In this type of game, being able to differentiate yourself is a huge motivator and this carries over into pvp. It's not a "griefer" mentality, it's the same mentality that drives the rest of the game--the drive to feel like your hero or villain stands out from the crowd and maybe is just a little bit better than the next guy because of the effort you invested. |
Actual, didn't WoW and Guild Wars allow you to purchase a pvp toon for only pvp?
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I'm not sure what they do now, but originally I don't think it was a purchase. It was just an option. You created a character for PvP, and they were automatically max level. Their selection of rare skills was based on what you had unlocked in PvE, though.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Actual, didn't WoW and Guild Wars allow you to purchase a pvp toon for only pvp?
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To A_F, the idea of a "free" 50 came from the internal progression of my own post, which you quoted, and some of the other, earlier posters in this thread, who mentioned the idea.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
I get it. Really, I do. What you're angling towards in this thread is a FPS style environment where each time a player enters into PVP they come in at the same baseline as everyone else. Spawn into RV with your third build full of free PVP gear with no prior investment required to attain it.
What I would suggest you are blind to is that this is antithetical to MMO persistent world games. Players don't expect and don't want to be at the same generic baseline as everyone else. Players expect their investment of time (this can be in the form of gear, levels, accolades or simply hours of experience raising the player's skill level) to actually provide them with some material advantage over a player who has not similarly invested. |
Ok let me ask you this, In PvP in this game if you are at a disadvantage in a fight isn't the accepted strategy to avoid taking the loss, to get away from the fight and deny the other guy the points ?? PvEers are just taking this to a logical conclusion. If you dislike Fiteklubbing, you really can't seriously yell "Res and get up so I can kill you again"
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| It's the same motivation that will make a player spend hours accumulating badges and costume pieces that are strictly for show. In this type of game, being able to differentiate yourself is a huge motivator and this carries over into pvp. It's not a "griefer" mentality, it's the same mentality that drives the rest of the game--the drive to feel like your hero or villain stands out from the crowd and maybe is just a little bit better than the next guy because of the effort you invested. |
The other recurring theme in this thread, is that PvP was never the focus of this game. True, so you really can't expect a PvP module that requires PvP to be the players focus to be really popular. You need something that is easy for people that are oriented on other things to get into, and where its not blindingly obvious that they are at a complete disadvantage.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
I wouldn't be in a PvP zone such as RV if it weren't for the fact that NPCs in PvP zones have a higher rate of purple drop.
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Is this true? I've never heard that before.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."