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in simple terms: regen as a set takes nearly 100% of the damage sent your way, and heals it back. willpower has defense and resistance powers to take quite a large chunk of that 100% off, so it has less damage to heal back.|
Originally Posted by Arnabas
I just don't understand why Willpower seems to provide better regeneration than does regeneration.
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personally, i don't see the point of a survival set that has no mitigation and simply heals at an insane rate. then again, the regen set is capable of healing nearly anything instantly.
at first look at the willpower set, i didn't think much of it. it looked like a regen set with a few odd toggles. then i tried it and saw what it could do. those few odd toggles (resist, def, that regen set is lacking) make a world of difference when you're trying to stay alive.
add in IO sets and both are just beastly.
[edited to add: with regen you pretty much have to use your tier 9 to survive those crazy situation alpha strikes. with willpower the tier 9 is kind of like candy sprinkles on what you already have.]
"Scrappers don't want the bit of dignity that Brutes left them taken away by (lol)Stalkers." -Delta_Strider, on Stalker buffs.
Current Project: Hard Goodbye, StJ/Nin
Retired: Blitzwulf, Claws/Nin (50); Perdition's Blade, Night Widow (50)
Regen has Quick Recovery at level 4.
Regen isn't more or less effective based on damage type or area/melee/ranged. It simply heals it back.
-Regen opponents in PVE are uncommon.
It's mostly simple. Passives (always on), toggles (keep 'em on) and press these buttons to heal fast!
+Recharge helps everyone's DPS, but for regen with 3 click-heals, it helps their survivability too.
Wolverine is cool (VVulfer33n is not).
Also, it's the action-hero power. Get the stuffing kicked out of you, and keep on coming back.
www.paragonwiki.com is a great source of information for this game.
New or returning to the game? Want advice from experienced players who want to help YOU?
The Mentor Project: Part of the New Player Council.
Regen isn't any less effective than Willpower, in the right hands. The main difference between the two is stylistic. You have to be on top of the right timing for your click powers. You can give yourself more time to react by looking at additional mitigation (from IO sets and Pool Powers), but truly it's all a matter of timing.
Regen's hardest job is dealing with spikes in damage. That's why the updated version of MoG is very handy in that regard. However it isn't necessary all the time if you know how to act and react.
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I have an MA/Regen that can jump in and tank for 8 man spawns. I live through battles that wipe the rest of the team. Maybe it's just that you're not a click power kind of guy (Bill Z and I have long talks about how he isn't and I am able to do well with them). Anecdotal accounts don't mean much though. While it takes more quick thinking and reactions, the survivability of regen is still up near the top of the list.
| I have a DB/ Willpower character who I put into crazy situations, where his health might drop down to a barely visible sliver as he fights a dozen enemies. Within seconds, he seems to rebound and return to full health. In a similar situation, my regen guy would be popping inspirations while running away. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Not good with clicks? Or is it because he's not IO'd and accoladed? I play an SO/common IO BS/Regen and I have to agree its underperforminig to WP and most other sets in survivability by a pretty big margin. The only reason I can see to make a Regen is in pvp, otherwise any other secondary is better in pve.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
I have an MA/Regen that can jump in and tank for 8 man spawns. I live through battles that wipe the rest of the team. Maybe it's just that you're not a click power kind of guy (Bill Z and I have long talks about how he isn't and I am able to do well with them). Anecdotal accounts don't mean much though. While it takes more quick thinking and reactions, the survivability of regen is still up near the top of the list.
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[QUOTE=Arnabas;2424452] I just don't understand why Willpower seems to provide better regeneration than does regeneration.QUOTE]
If you can get your WP to regenerate better than 728% wo/instant healing and 1706% w/instant healing like my regen scrapper does Id like to see it.
Regen has a lot of its survivability is built into the two heals.
reconstruction roughly 50% HP every 30 secs (SO slotting) which is equivalent to an additional 200% regen
Dull Pain which has a massive heal, but the +HP scales is what so well with the regen powers.
Fundamentally I dont view either as innately more or less survivable, but regen is more active, and you have to use your clicks well.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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728% is that difficult to achieve w/ a WP brute.
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Originally Posted by DimMak
If you can get your WP to regenerate better than 728% wo/instant healing and 1706% w/instant healing like my regen scrapper does Id like to see it.
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You'd be shocked at how "bad" my main build is and how little IOs contribute to it. Most of my gains are in my Melee set.|
Originally Posted by SonicBang
Not good with clicks? Or is it because he's not IO'd and accoladed? I play an SO/common IO BS/Regen and I have to agree its underperforminig to WP and most other sets in survivability by a pretty big margin. The only reason I can see to make a Regen is in pvp, otherwise any other secondary is better in pve.
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That being said, most of what I said applies to my experience with the set when it had SOs.
It really depends on how you define "perform" It sounds like (I'm willing to be wrong) that you guys seem to enjoy a fire and forget protective set, and Willpower is great for that. Willpower is probably what Regen should have been, using all the lessons they learned from the original.
However that doesn't make Regen worse by any stretch of the imagination. It's just not as user friendly.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Won't post on set details, everyone else has done that.
I personally find playing Willpower toons to be snore worthy. I like regen because its an action set, I have to interact to be good at it. To me it makes it more fun to play which is more important then numbers.
My Regen toon is as good or bad as I am as a player. A WP toon tends to be good regardless.
I like a challenge, and I like interaction. 
I'm not a regen expert. But I used to know one.
I used to team with a guy who liked Regen Scrappers. This was after the Great Defense Nerf, After Enhancement Diversification, after (as far as I know) the big Regen nerfs (notably the changes to Instant Healing) and BEFORE New Improved MoG and BEFORE IOs.
That is, the point in the game when Regen was at its weakest. No longer overpowered, unable to use Mog against alphas, unable to improve with set IOs.
This guy not only stayed standing through all sorts of hideous teamwipes that killed my Fire Tanker with Tough, but he'd do so usually without even having his green bar move. I never saw it go down normally, and even at the worst, when he was the last man standing, surrounded by +3 Nemesis, it would only dip down to about half and then fill back up.
Now maybe network lag prevented me from seeing most of the changes to his green bar if he refilled it quickly; maybe he was taking hits and the system wasn't accurately tracking them on my end. But I could never figure out how he did it. His green bar looked like a Granite Tanker's green bar.
Regen has been considerably improved since he played.
I've never been serious about a regen toon; maybe I should try one.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Well, despite the names, 'Willpower' is actually more of a regen set than 'Regeneration'. For accuracy, the regen set should really be called 'Self Heal' since that's where most of it's power lies. So, REALLY, Willpower DOES provide better regeneration than Regeneration - but that doesn't mean better survivability.|
Originally Posted by Arnabas
I just don't understand why Willpower seems to provide better regeneration than does regeneration.
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The 'bread and butter' power is Reconstruction.... okay, most people would say it's Integration, and it is, but I'm assuming that Integration gets taken as soon as you can get it and you never turn it off. Base Reconstruction heals 25% of your hit points once per minute. You can enhance that to approximately half of your hit points every 30 seconds. So that power alone can replace your full hit points almost once per minute - at the cost of interrupting your attack chain.
Next, Dull Pain. Get this: under the right conditions, Dull Pain can heal you for MORE POINTS THAN YOU START WITH! This is because it first increases your maximum hit points, then heals you based on a percentage of the new total.
With these two powers, plus Moment of Glory, you have tremendous ability to deal with incoming damage. I have been on multiple task forces where I had to go into fights first because the tank couldn't survive it. Some enemy types are like kryptonite to certain tank sets - they bypass or negate the defenses and the tank has nothing to keep them alive. Self heals and regeneration work against everything (okay, except maybe Hamidon, but you don't see him too often). Classic example: most tank sets vs psionic enemies. With regen, I don't care if the damage is fire, psi, lethal, whatever.
With the regen set, you don't have to worry about an enemy being able to bypass your defenses or attack your weak spot. Another benefit (which it has in common with Willpower) is that you can skip the Fitness pool and pick three OTHER powers to enhance your survivability. My first character was broadsword/regen and I've logged thousands of hours on him. Regen kicks butt.
Having said all that, I know multiple people who simply do not use the regen set because, "It's too clicky."
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I've found regen to be a mixed bag. For me, it really depends on how I'm playing that day. If I'm really rolling along and paying attention then very little can slow me down. If I'm not really into it and lose concentration pretty much anything can bring me down.
I used to play with the strategy of leaving MOG and IH for when the battle turns south. I soon realized that by the time I noticed I would need them, it was too late. So I revamped my style. I started anticipating when I'd need them and clicking them beforehand. This was a huge jump in performance. Since I'm still on SO's with him it can get hairy at times and if I'm not paying attention or I lag death comes swiftly.
Regen has been a rollercoaster over the years with all the changes. What was once a boring set has been turned into a very active click heavy set.
I love it!
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Keep Calm & Chive On!
In my experience /Regen outperforms all other sets when SOs are the only thing available, but when IOs are brought into the equation /Regen tends to fall off the top because Set Bonuses are more helpful to sets like /WP than /Regen.
Regen has to be my favorite set for one reason, it doesn't matter what damage type your enemy does. With Healing as your mitigation you essentially have resistance to all types of damage.
As the others have said /WP is the set and forget, go smash secondary while /Regen is the watch your health, click quickly set. It's different for everyone as to which set they are "good" at because the playstyles for both are total opposites
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(emphasis mine)|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
it first increases your maximum hit points, then heals you based on a percentage of the new total.
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This is not true. The heal from Dull Pain is still based on your original max health (or, more accurately, a value which just so happens to be a constant percentage of your unmodified max health at any given level, but is not directly tied to your unmodified max health)
The +MaxHealth portion of Dull Pain is broken into two halves, one of which is unenhanceable. So if unenhanced Dull Pain gives you +X max HP, Dull Pain enhanced by 100% gives you +1.5 X max HP, rather than +2 X max HP.
The Heal portion of Dull Pain is not broken into two halves, and is entirely enhanceable. Unenhanced, the heal is exactly equal to the +MaxHealth. However, since the +MaxHealth is only partially enhanceable while the heal is fully enhanceable, and both are affected by the same enhancements, the Heal portion is automatically more powerful than the +MaxHealth portion as soon as you put a -3 TO in the power.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Thanks for the replies everyone. There's some good food for thought here. I'll try approaching the set from another angle and see if a change in playstyle helps.
Est sularis oth Mithas
I've just recently finished kitting out my MA/Regen scrapper on virtue - this is my most recent 50.
Now, to be fair, I should mention that my first -ever- 50 was a katana/regen scrapper and, after that experience, I was put off the set for a good long while. I lived, I learned, I switched servers, I made millions upon millions of influences, and...most importantly...I came to understand game mechanics in much great, and intimate, detail. When I revisited /Regen, for my MA concept toon, I applied what I'd learned.
The results? A scrapper whose performance borders on ridiculous.
I'm inclined to believe that the developed intention, with respect to /Regen, was to create a set that performs...roughly...as well as it's colleagues, but does so in a different fashion. After all (as earlier stated), where other sets rely on their damage mitigation to support survivability, /Regen simply absorbs the damage and promises a speedy return to the fight.
Now, what sets /Regen above and beyond, in my opinion, is that it's free of some limitations (practically-speaking) that the others are not. Other sets are limited by how much regen they can actually collect (note regen =/= self-heal) - they may do this through health, or by set bonuses, and so on. They're also much more constrained in how, and where, their mitigation is enhanced (*nod to ED*). They have their defensive shields, plus whatever bonuses they can pick up.
/Regen, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about running into silly things like the defense and resistance caps. Without popping a T9, a boatload of inspirations and team buffs, they aren't going to get anywhere near it, and they know it. Instead, the only real limitation they need be concerned with is the regeneration limit which - have you looked? - is something obnoxious...like 2200 or 2300% of base (I believe it's 2300%). Now, most scrappers don't have a hope of touching that cap without ALOT of help from their team-mates. For a /Regen? Yea...it's not nearly impossible.
For example...my fully kitted MA/Regen can hit very nearly 1800% (no purps at the moment). All told, I can get him -into- the neighbourhood of a regeneration rate of about 175HP/sec (saying this from memory - may be a little more). Now, that's BEFORE my defense and resistance set bonuses...AND before Tough/Weave. I really DO have it all. Any damage that slips my defense screens (which are reasonable, though on the low side for scrappers overall) is virtually immaterial. The best part? It's utterly irrelevant -what- the damage type is. On a recent LGTF, I watched a granite tanker faceplant against CWK (though I didn't -quite- catch what happened)...in fact, six players wiped on the alpha. I wasn't one of them...nor was the sneaky, sneaky, ill 'troller. I checked the combat log, once everyone was on their feet again, and...oh...the alpha hit...just not hard enough for me to care, nor even notice.
As for /Regen being "too clicky" - yea, I can understand that. After all, clicking powers for your secondary is a pretty unreasonable request...what with all the primary clicking going on. Me? I just bound MoG to a mouse button. If "it" jumps off, I tap MoG and then cycle Reconstruction and/or DP and my leisure. With +recharge in the neighbourhood of...oh...120% global, one of them is always there for me...but, really, with Instant Healing running? I rarely, if ever, need them (though I do, generally, pop DP pre-IH...gets me to about 2100hp or so).
A well-built /Regen scrapper (especially one toting a tray of purples) is a virtually unstoppable force.
As an addendum:
Having seen what's possible with my MA/Regen, I revisited my Katana/Regen. The potential there is even greater than MA/Regen. Consider that the Analyze Weakness set gives 10% Regen bonuses and fits comfortably (and cheaply) into -most- of your attack powers, WHILE debuffing the enemies defense, and being interchanged with (stacking) defense bonuses from Divine Avalanche...and you should see where I'm coming from here. Those considerations come BEFORE the obscene, overall, /Regen potential.
That, I think, covers what /Regen is all about. Hit me more. I like it.
**Stealth Edit**
I re-read my post and thought "I would do well to elaborate on my addendum". With Analyze Weakness, if you're willing, you can cap (at a cost comparatively small to many other IO sets) your 5x 10% regen bonus. Seriously, that's 50% regen, ON THE CHEAP. Now, if you're like me, you have three Gambler IOs (I know, now we're getting expensive - just pointing out the potential), you can pick up a little more Regen there (if you don't want to use 5x AW...I didn't). Next, we start adding in Numie pairs (note: not all are obscenely expensive); any two (I believe it's two, isn't it?) nets you another 12% regen. Did I mention that these ones will fit into...oh...pretty much EVERY power in your secondary?
Consider that. Katana/Regen that's scored 110% regen JUST off the set-bonuses. That's handsome for any scrapper - couple it with the inherent (near game-breaking) self-healing of a /Regen scrapper and you're not a scrapper...you're a high damage-output tank.
I'd be interested in seeing how some of you slot your Regen
Est sularis oth Mithas
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RttC by itself with 10 targets in range gives you 797% regen. So, that was easy. |
Originally Posted by DimMak
If you can get your WP to regenerate better than 728% wo/instant healing and 1706% w/instant healing like my regen scrapper does Id like to see it.
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Can't meet 1700%, but 1200% isn't that hard. And that's not counting the HP, RES, or DEF you get all the time.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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This is my claws/regen scrapper when inventions first came out and I couldn't be arsed to figure out sets, set bonuses, etc. It's mostly a bastardization of my SO build. She tore through dudes like butter, and stood toe to toe with just about anything without flinching. Of course, regen is "kill or be killed", so she did have considerable work toward her debt badges 
but that is part of the process of learning regen - dying is a way to learn your limits, and a regen character will constantly be testing those limits. (Especially if you suffer from eternal scrapperlock - which I do - even when I'm playing my defenders. )
(And yes, I am well aware that there are several IO slots being under-utilized, like three endmod in QR/Stamina, three rech/three heal in DP and IH.)
NOTE: I have since greatly modified her build, and she has gone up EXPONENTIALLY in survivability. She is built for Recharge and Accuracy set bonuses now, with currently over 50% +rech, and over 60% +acc/tohit (a mix, and yes I know they are different mechanics), so that she can minimize the slots used for accuracy (or acc/x/y/z), to further the recharge awesomeness. She is a whirlwind of awesome, and she's not even CLOSE to being done.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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edit: Gah, pretend you see a second slot in SJ for a second jump IO. I must have missed that somehow.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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If I'm paying attention and on my game, my main is damn near unkillable. If I'm having an off day or get caught napping he has the consistency of tissue paper.
You HAVE to pay attention to your health bar at ALL times. It has the tendancy of not moving for long periods of time and then disappearing within a couple seconds, so if you're not watching it, you're dead or running and wondering where your health went.
It's a very active secondary, and your survivability with it is very much tied to your timing and reaction time with hitting the heals. I got the Master of STF badge the other night and I was very nearly the one who killed the attempt several times. Quick reactions and good timing kept me alive, at one point my health bar completely disappeared and I got out of there and hit all 3 heals at once. I was good for the rest of the fight (Aeon hits REALLY hard)
My regen has a pretty good build, but I have seen many that are much better. My survivability now came with a high price, I have all but the final debt badge, and have had since the mid 40's. Over that time I learned what I can and cannot handle. Now I can gauge how much damage I'm likely to take in just about any situation, just because I've been killed so many times.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Arnabas
Thanks for the replies everyone. There's some good food for thought here. I'll try approaching the set from another angle and see if a change in playstyle helps.
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Here's the build I put together while leveling my Spines/Regen. There are five expensive IOs in this build, only one that I actually paid for though, so it was very cheap. Without the Numina's special I'd use DWs in Recon. Replacing the LotG's with cheaper Def/Rech IOs (Weave, Vengeance), Kismet +Acc (Manuevers) and Winter's Gift Slow Res (in CJ) would still produce a solid build. This build was so successful for me that I stuck with it rather than switching to a perma-Hasten build I had planned. (I gave the Purples to my Stone/Fire Tank and WS.)
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Here's the current build I have on my DM/Reg. This character is rarely played, even though he was my 2nd 50. At one point I built a budget buzzsaw build to solo AVs, but found the mitigation lacking against the harder hitters, so when DM was reworked I rebuilt to fit the original character concept again and to have more general purpose utility. I consider it mediocre, but do get complements on him anyway. Note that I'm distinctly outside the "What Regen really needs is more Regen" camp that seems to hold sway on the forums, so you wont see 700%+ base Regen on my Scrapper builds.
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Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
I found another build I had in Mids.
It's a level 35 Claws/Reg I made on Freedom to help a friend earn P for a start up SG. He hasn't been played in well over a year and never had much INF. As a result he's mainly on L35 commons I picked up cheaply off WWs.
Code:
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Kosmos
Global: @Calorie
MA Arcs in 4-star purgatory: Four in a Row (#2198) - Hostile Takeover (#69714) - Red Harvest (#268305)
Quote:
Yeah, I'd like to see a solid MA/Regen build myself. I'm planning on respeccing Lemur Lad to bring him to the next level, but I'm running into issues about what to fit where.
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Originally Posted by Arnabas
I'd be interested in seeing how some of you slot your Regen
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Quote:
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Originally Posted by all_hell
728% is that difficult to achieve w/ a WP brute.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
RttC by itself with 10 targets in range gives you 797% regen. So, that was easy.
Can't meet 1700%, but 1200% isn't that hard. And that's not counting the HP, RES, or DEF you get all the time. |
At the risk of opening a can of worms, I wanna ask about Regeneration.
I have been playing since launch, but there are some powers that I have just never or rarely played. One is Regen. I presently have one regen character, who is at level 36. I am still looking for ways to make him work.
Having been around basically from the start, I remember all the issues about regen over the years as it has been adjusted. I think my main issue, though, is how it compares to Willpower. When Willpower was introduced, I was very happy, as I had been hoping for a good power for my "normal" characters, who had no super powers. I heard at the time that Willpower would have elements of regeneration to it, but just assumed it would be to a lesser degree.
I have a DB/ Willpower character who I put into crazy situations, where his health might drop down to a barely visible sliver as he fights a dozen enemies. Within seconds, he seems to rebound and return to full health. In a similar situation, my regen guy would be popping inspirations while running away.
I am comfortable with my ability to slot my powers, so I am not doing anything dumb like staying with training enhancements until level 40 or anything like that. I just don't understand why Willpower seems to provide better regeneration than does regeneration.
I am not bashing any powerset, or trying to be negative. I am simply wondering what I am missing with Regen to make it shine as a good power. Any thoughts, advice or opinions would be welcomed.
Est sularis oth Mithas