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That's a good thing. And I'd be happy to give you some tips and ideas for WP. I've done SS/WP up to 50 and have some experience with what it can and can't handle very well. I may not be the best person for it, so you can check the Brute or Scrapper forums for advice if you like.|
Originally Posted by DimMak
So I admit I havent played WP past lvl 20 and that was when it first came out with the issue. Anyways I went on to mids and played with WP and I could get regeneration to just under 800% fairly easy and higher if I took physical perfection. It actually doesnt look all that pricey compaired to what my regen cost. Glad I found this post cause now I'm looking forward to making a WP toon now.
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In short though:
WP will end up with more regen outside of IH. It gets a passive +30% HP which equates to +30% regen power as well. Higher tier builds though with regen will have IH up a lot, and can perma DP which is a permanent +60% regen rate.
WP trades clickies for RES/DEF. You get passive mitigation instead of active. The result is you can alpha better because incoming damage is reduced by an amount right off the bat, instead of you having to react. This has the distinct advantage of not halting you in combat to hit clickies or having you hit clickies too late. The downside to this is that when your HP falls with regen you have 4 or so powers you can hit. When your HP falls with WP you can pretty much only watch it happen (but that's what inspirations are for, really).
Regen benefits a lot from +recharge too. WP literally doesn't benefit at all from it. WP benefits more from +DEF boosts, and gains a lot from Tough/Weave. +HP and +regen bonuses are also really great.
Me, I prefer the passiveness that WP allows. Regen can do a lot of great stuff. It's easy to alpha with MoG. But I like just having my secondary work without having to think about it. The only other secondaries I've taken to 50 are Shield and Invuln.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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In my experience, even solo with buffed spawns, getting 10 targets for RttC doesn't happen as often as you'd think. Remember that it's not a good idea to consider the maximum possible as your baseline for performance. Also note that even when you're very quick, your regen is pretty pathetic if you're running into groups then away and around a corner to herd them.|
Originally Posted by DimMak
So I admit I havent played WP past lvl 20 and that was when it first came out with the issue. Anyways I went on to mids and played with WP and I could get regeneration to just under 750% fairly easy (1200% with 10 foes w/ RttC) and higher if I took physical perfection. It actually doesnt look all that pricey compaired to what my regen cost. Glad I found this post cause now I'm looking forward to making a WP toon now.
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Don't get me wrong, I like WP just as much as I like Regen. However talking about regen rates of RttC with max targets really sounds like a cherry picked argument to me.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Without even opening the build in Mids I can pretty much guarantee that a WP/Dark Tank with Tough/Weave will handle whatever you want. My non-IOed SS/WP Brute can handle +2/x6 spawns. If you add Tank modifiers, IOs, and a spammable heal to that, she could solo Hamidon.*
* = May not actually be capable of soloing Hamidon.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I can get 749% with 1 foe in RttC and 1194% with 10 by mids calculations
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
In my experience, even solo with buffed spawns, getting 10 targets for RttC doesn't happen as often as you'd think. Remember that it's not a good idea to consider the maximum possible as your baseline for performance. Also note that even when you're very quick, your regen is pretty pathetic if you're running into groups then away and around a corner to herd them.
Don't get me wrong, I like WP just as much as I like Regen. However talking about regen rates of RttC with max targets really sounds like a cherry picked argument to me. |
And before you say I cant do it, I can if I stripped a few of my favorite toons including my regen. I'd just have to get a tank to 50 and buy a few respec recipes.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Dark Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Arctic Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), Numna-Heal(3), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(3), Numna-Heal/Rchg(7)
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(31), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(31), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), T'Death-Dam%(46)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- GA-ResDam(A), GA-Res/Rech/End(11), GA-End/Res(13), GA-3defTpProc(13), GA-RechEnd(15), GA-RechRes(15)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(5), Heal-I(5), RgnTis-Regen+(7)
Level 6: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 8: Indomitable Will -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(9), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(9), LkGmblr-Rchg+(11)
Level 10: Rise to the Challenge -- Panac-Heal/EndRedux(A), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg(19), Panac-Heal/Rchg(25), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(25), Panac-Heal(27), Panac-Heal/+End(27)
Level 12: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Heal-I(17), Numna-Heal(17), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(19)
Level 18: Siphon Life -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(33), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), T'Death-Dam%(34), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(46)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(29), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(29), LkGmblr-Rchg+(31)
Level 30: Soul Drain -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(37), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(37), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(40)
Level 32: Tough -- Aegis-Psi/Status(A)
Level 35: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(36), LkGmblr-Rchg+(36)
Level 38: Midnight Grasp -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(39), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Hectmb-Dam%(40), HO:Nucle(40)
Level 41: Chilblain -- GravAnch-Immob(A), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg(42), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg(42), GravAnch-Acc/Rchg(42), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx(43)
Level 44: Block of Ice -- UbrkCons-Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(45), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(45), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(45), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(46)
Level 47: Ice Blast -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(48), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Ice Storm -- Ragnrk-Dmg(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(50), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Quote:
Generally speaking I consider 1 and 8 targets. 8 is more reasonable than 10, but it's also worth noting the minimum that you'll be facing for 1 target. My Invuln is set up to soft-cap at 8 targets, but she still has something like 30-35% with one target (I forget off the top of my head). Even with 0-1 targets in range for RttC, your regen isn't that bad. You get Health and Fast Healing, plus you still get RES and DEF. I never have issues herding badguys around a corner. But even if you have that problem, you can Siphon a bit of health back.|
Originally Posted by DimMak
I can get 749% with 1 foe in RttC and 1194% with 10 by mids calculations
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Also it's worth noting that you don't have to totally focus on regen with WP. Shoot for some nice defense bonuses, and slot up Tough so you have 70% RES to S/L or so. Grab some S/L defense or whatever cheap bonuses you can get. Also look for +HP, since you can hit the Tank cap, or at least get 3000 with good slotting.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Are you saying that my defense/resistance numbers in the build I posted are not good enough? The HP is 3100+
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Generally speaking I consider 1 and 8 targets. 8 is more reasonable than 10, but it's also worth noting the minimum that you'll be facing for 1 target. My Invuln is set up to soft-cap at 8 targets, but she still has something like 30-35% with one target (I forget off the top of my head). Even with 0-1 targets in range for RttC, your regen isn't that bad. You get Health and Fast Healing, plus you still get RES and DEF. I never have issues herding badguys around a corner. But even if you have that problem, you can Siphon a bit of health back.
Also it's worth noting that you don't have to totally focus on regen with WP. Shoot for some nice defense bonuses, and slot up Tough so you have 70% RES to S/L or so. Grab some S/L defense or whatever cheap bonuses you can get. Also look for +HP, since you can hit the Tank cap, or at least get 3000 with good slotting. |
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Sorry, no. Like I said I didn't look at the build because WP + Tank + Dark is going to be amazing even with SOs. Just saying those are the sorts of bonuses you should build for. So if you did that, you're all set. |
Originally Posted by DimMak
Are you saying that my defense/resistance numbers in the build I posted are not good enough? The HP is 3100+
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Honestly I would suggest doing a Scrapper or Brute. With that build you'll probably be able to handle a ton of stuff. That extra mitigation will probably be a big waste for a Tank, while bonus damage is always helpful. Unless you're just a big fan of Tanks.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I basically put the same build into a scrapper and wholly gawd, I'm going to get started on that build tonight. I might never play my regen scrapper again. I'm just hoping that the numbers match in game as they do on Mids. I found that my invul brute had significantly lower defense and resistance numbers then what mids totaled.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Sorry, no. Like I said I didn't look at the build because WP + Tank + Dark is going to be amazing even with SOs. Just saying those are the sorts of bonuses you should build for. So if you did that, you're all set.
Honestly I would suggest doing a Scrapper or Brute. With that build you'll probably be able to handle a ton of stuff. That extra mitigation will probably be a big waste for a Tank, while bonus damage is always helpful. Unless you're just a big fan of Tanks. |
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Let me go over some things with you real quick to help out.|
Originally Posted by DimMak
I basically put the same build into a scrapper and wholly gawd, I'm going to get started on that build tonight. I might never play my regen scrapper again. I'm just hoping that the numbers match in game as they do on Mids. I found that my invul brute had significantly lower defense and resistance numbers then what mids totaled.
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First, you're focusing a lot on recharge bonuses when you don't need to. If you're hoping to speed up your attack chain, that's one thing, but you've invested a ton into recharge when it doesn't benefit your defense any.
Second, you picked some strange IOs for certain things. The one that stands out most to me is Touch of Death in two attacks. What you want is Kinetic Combat. KC gives +3.75% S/L DEF for 4 slots, while ToD gives +1.88% S/L DEF for 6. WP is a typed defense set, not positional. Some of your powers would also benefit more from some frankenslotting and set mixing.
I put together a build for a Brute based on what -I- would do with the build. I'm not saying it's a better build or that you should switch to it. In fact I have some quirks that you might not like, like refusing to underslot powers (Tough and HPT). You can use this as a guideline or just look at it for some ideas on what to do. Also, this sort of stuff isn't my expertise, so if someone else who's better at this wants to offer improvements, feel free.
Here's what I came up with:Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Willpower
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(40), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(43)
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(43), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(45), ResDam-I:50(46), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(46), GA-3defTpProc:50(46)
Level 2: Smite -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(7), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(7)
Level 4: Fast Healing -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(5), RgnTis-Regen+:30(5)
Level 6: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(11), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg:50(13), Heal-I:50(13)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- SW-Def/EndRdx:50(A), SW-ResDam/Re TP:50(11)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Rise to the Challenge -- Panac-Heal/EndRedux:50(A), Panac-Heal/Rchg:50(17), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg:50(17), Panac-Heal:50(37), Panac-Heal/+End:50(40)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Numna-Heal:50(19), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(19)
Level 20: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(21), P'Shift-End%:50(21)
Level 22: Mind Over Body -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(23), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(23), RctvArm-ResDam:40(34), RctvArm-EndRdx:40(37)
Level 24: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(25), P'Shift-End%:50(25)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Armgdn-Dmg:50(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(31), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 28: Heightened Senses -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29), LkGmblr-Def:50(29), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx:40(31), S'dpty-EndRdx:40(31)
Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg:50(34)
Level 35: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(36), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(36), RctvArm-ResDam:40(36), RctvArm-EndRdx:40(37)
Level 38: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), LkGmblr-Def:50(39), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx:40(39), S'dpty-EndRdx:40(40)
Level 41: Soul Tentacles -- GravAnch-Immob:50(A), GravAnch-Immob/Rchg:50(42), GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(42), GravAnch-Acc/Rchg:50(42), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx:50(43)
Level 44: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb:50(A), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx:50(45), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx:50(45)
Level 47: Dark Obliteration -- Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(48), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50), RechRdx-I:50(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
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Set Bonus Totals:
- 23.5% Defense(Smashing)
- 23.5% Defense(Lethal)
- 7.25% Defense(Fire)
- 7.25% Defense(Cold)
- 8.5% Defense(Energy)
- 8.5% Defense(Negative)
- 6% Defense(Psionic)
- 14.8% Defense(Melee)
- 7.25% Defense(Ranged)
- 8.5% Defense(AoE)
- 45% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 7.5% Enhancement(Range) (in PvP)
- 45% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 10% FlySpeed
- 258.6 HP (17.3%) HitPoints
- 10% JumpHeight
- 10% JumpSpeed
- MezResist(Confused) 5% (in PvP)
- MezResist(Held) 5% (in PvP)
- MezResist(Immobilize) 18.2%
- MezResist(Repel) 1000% (10% chance, in PvP)
- MezResist(Sleep) 5% (in PvP)
- MezResist(Stun) 5% (in PvP)
- MezResist(Terrorized) 5% (in PvP)
- 19.5% (0.33 End/sec) Recovery (in PvP)
- 84% (5.26 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 4.58% Resistance(Smashing)
- 4.58% Resistance(Lethal)
- 10.6% Resistance(Fire)
- 10.6% Resistance(Cold)
- 3% Resistance(Energy)
- 3% Resistance(Negative)
- 3% Resistance(Toxic)
- 3% Resistance(Psionic)
- 10% RunSpeed
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1387;695;1390;HEX;| |78DAA593DB4E13511486F7B453077AA040A1E5D823504E1D010FE16034512431826| |9A988516353650B8D93B6694BD43B1FC02BBDF0CAD730119FC4F3036862A2F7D6B5| |D63F25215E3A69FF6FF69EB5D7BFD6ECD95B4FD7834A3DBFA48CC015A7DC6C962E3| |70E5BDABA516E1D36CA8EB2945251992A6D69476B7BBDDC788CDB18A6D7F5235D6D| |6A7BB7E238F5DA13DDE8BB563DD00D5D6DD99D9B60BE5673EC8D4AABAA9B4D0C367| |5B95EA9EE87DC27FB072D1AF96554AC6BBD17BB5AAF3CB4E150AC1D3AA5AD72B3A5| |1BCF86A89E19FA7F579DAB6DAA3C21AD7A0AC0B6205B14CC3E202CAA0F1C6948B84| |FED183C355B10CC1705B97989CBC56834AE724B5E1EFDE82C221303261E98786072| |0A26A760F289D40B138F1726264CCC8B92D6476FD38700E5CBC99A9FA4162C7C162| |CBA60D1050B3F2C82590F87072764D567D26E2432BA37A456FF75419492055C8BC0| |A098C7682A040B159A96F55F48C3865F1A0B8FC9C2DE3890104C2405D994C0A20C7| |D6E637DE8A81FFDF5DF127CA547113720F2522A1D7805BC167CA44783083007E374| |9355D1049012A4D282898CA08B0C636EBE18F20D21DF10F2FDA247C3B2376D73785| |9A646568055417C4D90BA20F84681A3AEFD68AF943C16010604F13F8A7DE35EB137| |2CDE2DBCB1F1365DEA37DD27DC2F21816D4A629B92D8A624B629852FC14B09D2AE5| |F1AED66D06E06ED664EB46B52F8A41B3E89F2A650DE14CA9B42795994B7479B32ED| |16339D9706670AC0365014CCDE44F374BEE710EE997B2B53F3EF802381A67CB69BC| |F5E92A9D36780B3C039C1E279419AAA5D70F32DCC49BF8B2730661E9F4DFAF1EBDB| |FC67266F1E1F2D65C8CC86797C44FFEB3A0A76F27417E80B378AFC99EFB0ECF2F03| |6CB1D96BB3C778FE53E4B498EC3FB60A7D2F03217B4C2B2CAB2C6F28283AC004980| |25C81262E96109B3F4B24458A22C232C6F58DA7F010384F313| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
DEF:
35% S/L
31% F/C/N/E
Your version has 25% DEF S/L, and 37-38% F/C/N/E. You get more exotic, but mine has far more S/L. This is mostly thanks to Kinetic Combat. Since almost every attack in the game has some S/L component, upping that defense is a big boost.
RES:
54% S/L
10% E/N
18% F/C
These numbers are pretty comparable to yours. The difference is this is a Brute, not a Tank. Underslotting some of those powers you took brings the values down, and lets you resist a lot less.
Regen/HP:
701% regen (1 RttC target)
2490 HP
I have about 45% less regen, which isn't that significant of an amount. The HP is less by about 600, but again, Brute vs Tank.
My build also has more attacks, which are slotted better. Siphon heals for 14% HP instead of 10%. You also get Darkest Night which debuffs damage by 21% and ToHit by nearly 15%, which would add a significant amount to your survival (not that you'd need it, I imagine). I forgot to change the set on DN because it has a redundant HP boost, but you can fix that.
There's still wiggle room and some places you could improve. For instance, if you swap out Soul Tentacles to an Enfeebled Operation set, you can wind up with 38% S/L DEF. Also, if you don't care as much as I do for the RES slot in HPT or want to undercut some of the weaker attacks, you have room to add a slot to Fast Healing and bring that regen up some more.
Hopefully some of this helps and gives you ideas on how to build a solid WP toon. With that sort of build, your Scrapper should easily be able to stomp most content on +2/x8. You might have issues with some problem gangs like Longbow, but they tend to be a problem for just about all melees. Good luck in whatever you decide to make! And don't forget to drop by the Scrapper, Brute, or Tank forums for more in-depth advice.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Quote:
That's not strictly speaking true. Regeneration has, slotted with SOs, about +391.25% regeneration. Alternatively, that's equivalent to 1.63%/sec of health recovery.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Well, despite the names, 'Willpower' is actually more of a regen set than 'Regeneration'. For accuracy, the regen set should really be called 'Self Heal' since that's where most of it's power lies.
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Reconstruction slotted with SOs returns 48.75% health about every 32 seconds, or about 1.52%/sec health return. Regen's +regeneration outpaces its heal.
Dull Pain's heal when DP is slotted with SOs returns 78% health about every 186 seconds, or about 0.419%/sec. *However* while DP is up regeneration is boosted while heals are not: relative to base health while DP is cycling you are getting 1.939%/sec of health recovery due to healing, but 1.63%/sec health recovery due to regeneration while DP is down, and 2.59%/sec health recovery due to regeneration while DP is up. The average, assuming about 66% for DP, is about 2.26%/sec.
Whether you account for DP or ignore DP entirely, the regeneration set is slightly more than 50% regeneration and slightly less than 50% healing. Technically, DP itself contributes to survivability in terms of its +health but that's more difficult to express as a single numerical ratio: I would describe Regen as a set in which more than half its health recovery is regeneration, and more than half its total survivability is due to health recovery in general.
I haven't counted Instant Healing in those computations either, which would further swing the scale towards +regeneration. I don't know why there exists a persistent belief that "most" of Regen's strength comes from self-heals, because that's never been true.
Willpower *can* generate regeneration numbers that are higher than Regen's numbers without Instant Healing, but on average Willpower's net regeneration is around the same as Regen's is, if you factor in an average value for Instant Healing.
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Yes I slot for high recharge for my attack chain, i believe a good offense makes for good defense as well. the -tohit from DM should make up for some of the defense as well and I'm still playing around with some of the attacks. I'd rather have a high DPS and take out a proc and put in -to hit. Since I havent played WP it will take some play time for me to see what I like. But overall I like what I see in WP
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Let me go over some things with you real quick to help out.
First, you're focusing a lot on recharge bonuses when you don't need to. If you're hoping to speed up your attack chain, that's one thing, but you've invested a ton into recharge when it doesn't benefit your defense any. Second, you picked some strange IOs for certain things. The one that stands out most to me is Touch of Death in two attacks. What you want is Kinetic Combat. KC gives +3.75% S/L DEF for 4 slots, while ToD gives +1.88% S/L DEF for 6. WP is a typed defense set, not positional. Some of your powers would also benefit more from some frankenslotting and set mixing. I put together a build for a Brute based on what -I- would do with the build. I'm not saying it's a better build or that you should switch to it. In fact I have some quirks that you might not like, like refusing to underslot powers (Tough and HPT). You can use this as a guideline or just look at it for some ideas on what to do. Also, this sort of stuff isn't my expertise, so if someone else who's better at this wants to offer improvements, feel free. Here's what I came up with:Now keeping in mind that this is a Brute and not a Tank, I still made some significant improvements. DEF: 35% S/L 31% F/C/N/E Your version has 25% DEF S/L, and 37-38% F/C/N/E. You get more exotic, but mine has far more S/L. This is mostly thanks to Kinetic Combat. Since almost every attack in the game has some S/L component, upping that defense is a big boost. RES: 54% S/L 10% E/N 18% F/C These numbers are pretty comparable to yours. The difference is this is a Brute, not a Tank. Underslotting some of those powers you took brings the values down, and lets you resist a lot less. Regen/HP: 701% regen (1 RttC target) 2490 HP I have about 45% less regen, which isn't that significant of an amount. The HP is less by about 600, but again, Brute vs Tank. My build also has more attacks, which are slotted better. Siphon heals for 14% HP instead of 10%. You also get Darkest Night which debuffs damage by 21% and ToHit by nearly 15%, which would add a significant amount to your survival (not that you'd need it, I imagine). I forgot to change the set on DN because it has a redundant HP boost, but you can fix that. There's still wiggle room and some places you could improve. For instance, if you swap out Soul Tentacles to an Enfeebled Operation set, you can wind up with 38% S/L DEF. Also, if you don't care as much as I do for the RES slot in HPT or want to undercut some of the weaker attacks, you have room to add a slot to Fast Healing and bring that regen up some more. Hopefully some of this helps and gives you ideas on how to build a solid WP toon. With that sort of build, your Scrapper should easily be able to stomp most content on +2/x8. You might have issues with some problem gangs like Longbow, but they tend to be a problem for just about all melees. Good luck in whatever you decide to make! And don't forget to drop by the Scrapper, Brute, or Tank forums for more in-depth advice. |
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At the very least, switch out the ToD sets for Kinetic Combat. They give you the bonus you're looking for, and will up your S/L by 3.75%. You could even set-pick and get another 16% regen by squeezing in two pieces from another set. |
Originally Posted by DimMak
Yes I slot for high recharge for my attack chain, i believe a good offense makes for good defense as well. the -tohit from DM should make up for some of the defense as well and I'm still playing around with some of the attacks. I'd rather have a high DPS and take out a proc and put in -to hit. Since I havent played WP it will take some play time for me to see what I like. But overall I like what I see in WP
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Hopefully the build plan I put together gives you some ideas of what you can do with WP. Whatever you plan on doing, good luck with it! WP is a good set.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I contend that it is. I didn't say that most of regen's recovery of hit points comes from the self-heals. My actual comment was "most of it's power", but really I should have used a less vague word like 'survivability'. Incoming damage tends not to be steady and uniform like the effects of regeneration. It tends to spike - like the self-heals.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't know why there exists a persistent belief that "most" of Regen's strength comes from self-heals, because that's never been true.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I'm aware of those effects. Given that I've looked extremely carefully at those mechanical effects as well as all other mitigation mechanisms both numerically and in-game, I reiterate my prior statements.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
I contend that it is. I didn't say that most of regen's recovery of hit points comes from the self-heals. My actual comment was "most of it's power", but really I should have used a less vague word like 'survivability'. Incoming damage tends not to be steady and uniform like the effects of regeneration. It tends to spike - like the self-heals.
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Furthermore, I don't think this is an assertion immune to objective analysis.
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If you're comparing sets, also be careful to not compare a WP tank to a Regen Scrapper, for instance. The numbers are going to be significantly different there.
My MA/Regen is a LOT of fun, and very active to play. I also don't have to redraw whenever I heal (I always wonder about the Katana and BS Scrappers that are Regen... it would drive me nuts, personally). He does very well on teams (though you do have to be careful of alphas, Dull Pain and MoG help a lot there), and extremely well solo. I've been working him solo through the Praetorian arcs, and he hasn't met one of those EBs that really challenged him (I did use a pet temp power to help with Marauder, but that was more from being impatient... he kept using his tier 9, dragging out the inevitable end of the fight). I don't know how he'd do solo against AVs, but that's not really my metric for playing. I'd find it right boring, too.
Anyway, I grabbed Tough and Weave on him, and got my defenses to about the 20% mark (25% for melee, or so), as well as getting a good amount of +health, +regen, and +recharge from IOs. This has worked pretty well for me. Before IOs, he was quite solid as well... I only had issues with spike damage in Croatoa (darn Tuatha), but that was solved by grabbing Tough. No problems since then.
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I actually had to log into my Kat/Regen just to see if there was a redraw on heal. Which says something because its one of my favorite toons to play. There is a redraw but I don't think I ever noticed it.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
If you're comparing sets, also be careful to not compare a WP tank to a Regen Scrapper, for instance. The numbers are going to be significantly different there.
My MA/Regen is a LOT of fun, and very active to play. I also don't have to redraw whenever I heal (I always wonder about the Katana and BS Scrappers that are Regen... it would drive me nuts, personally). He does very well on teams (though you do have to be careful of alphas, Dull Pain and MoG help a lot there), and extremely well solo. I've been working him solo through the Praetorian arcs, and he hasn't met one of those EBs that really challenged him (I did use a pet temp power to help with Marauder, but that was more from being impatient... he kept using his tier 9, dragging out the inevitable end of the fight). I don't know how he'd do solo against AVs, but that's not really my metric for playing. I'd find it right boring, too. Anyway, I grabbed Tough and Weave on him, and got my defenses to about the 20% mark (25% for melee, or so), as well as getting a good amount of +health, +regen, and +recharge from IOs. This has worked pretty well for me. Before IOs, he was quite solid as well... I only had issues with spike damage in Croatoa (darn Tuatha), but that was solved by grabbing Tough. No problems since then. |
But yeah even without Tough/Weave my kat/regen tears through just about anything without much issue. But its just enough of a challenge to keep it fun, which is probably why I never finished slotting even her common ios. >_>
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I suspect it's because practical play experience tells a different qualitative story. A lot of the people try to play their melee characters in highly stressful situations. My own experience in doing that with /Regen tells me that their passive health regeneration isn't sufficient to carry the day, especially when Dull Pain is down. That forces me to rely on Reconstruction to survive (maybe!). I believe that having that power become crucial to success implants in people's minds that it is a dominant effect - they feel the passive regen "doesn't do anything". Of course that's not true, but looking back at the heat of battle I believe this is what people come away with.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I haven't counted Instant Healing in those computations either, which would further swing the scale towards +regeneration. I don't know why there exists a persistent belief that "most" of Regen's strength comes from self-heals, because that's never been true.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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A portion of your objective analysis is irrelevant to the matter. The regeneration restores more hit points than the self-heals over time... so what? How much of that regeneration would be occurring when you're at full HP and is therefore wasted? The regeneration does not 'ramp up' in combat (which Willpower DOES). Also, how much of the self-healing gets wasted like all that regen? NONE, as long as you're paying attention. The self-heals occur entirely ON DEMAND - i.e. when you NEED it, unlike the regen. This makes the self-heals more important to survival.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm aware of those effects. Given that I've looked extremely carefully at those mechanical effects as well as all other mitigation mechanisms both numerically and in-game, I reiterate my prior statements.
Furthermore, I don't think this is an assertion immune to objective analysis. |
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My Claws/Regen stalker is absolutely amazing at level 47, and really took shape around level 30. |
Originally Posted by Arnabas
I am not bashing any powerset, or trying to be negative. I am simply wondering what I am missing with Regen to make it shine as a good power. Any thoughts, advice or opinions would be welcomed.
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I don't know where exactly your problem is, so I can't help you with specifics, but here's how I see it:
First, since the beginning, I treated /Regen as my primary power. That means I slotted it preferentially, I focused on taking regen powers first if I had a choice, etc.
Second, I took everything in the set, plus Fitness.
Finally, I've slotted it up pretty well over the past 10 levels or so. I've focused on IO sets that give +regen or +max HP, with +recharge being tertiary. I haven't spent a fortune, in fact, few of my sets are complete. But I've managed between level 35 and 47, to really boost that regen. All heal powers have AT LEAST three slots (healx3) in them. People will tell you one or more powers are skippable. I didn't buy that, and got everything. I don't know how much of a difference that makes, but I know it's working for me.
I spent most of this character's life (up to level 46) running under the old difficulty system on the "Relentless" setting (same as "Invincible" for you hero types)
Playstyle, what I do is I run in, AS, then scrap. If it's an ordinary spawn, I might even skip AS if I'm feeling impatient. Generally, few things can do enough damage to me to actually overcome my regen rate. For instance, anything short of a boss level usually isn't dangerous to me, the damage is usually healed faster than they can dish it out.
For those that do, as soon as I hit about half way, I kick off recontruction. If I get hurt down to half again, it's time for Dull Pain. If I get into serious trouble it's Moment of Glory followed by Instant Healing (until you get MoG, pack some purple insps). With Instant Healing running, almost nothing can kill me. For those that still can, I use Insps, mostly purples for +def. All I need is a short breather and I'm back in the game. I pack a few greens, but rarely use them. They're more for emergencies.
I use Hasten in big boss fights (especially EBs) to bring Reconstruction and Dull Pain up more quickly. In some really big battles, I've actually kicked Instant Healing off more than twice.
I've solo'd the "defeat Romulus' forces" mission in Cimmerora with this character (on the old "Relentless difficulty, too!), including scrapping down Polyphemos while his reinforcements arrived.
I consider Regen one of the "oh wow!" powers of the game. It's great to just laugh as you realize "I. Cannot. DIE!" And I'm a stalker!
now if you can share a bit about your build, maybe I can make some suggestions.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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In my experience, I only need to break out self-heals in tough boss fights or EB fights. It's to the point that if I haven't played my /regen in a while, I often FORGET that I need to use self heals. If I've been running, say, paper missions I might well have not even touched reconstruction in some time. I'll get to an EB mission and get killed because... oh yeah! I can HEAL!
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I suspect it's because practical play experience tells a different qualitative story. A lot of the people try to play their melee characters in highly stressful situations. My own experience in doing that with /Regen tells me that their passive health regeneration isn't sufficient to carry the day, especially when Dull Pain is down. That forces me to rely on Reconstruction to survive (maybe!). I believe that having that power become crucial to success implants in people's minds that it is a dominant effect - they feel the passive regen "doesn't do anything". Of course that's not true, but looking back at the heat of battle I believe this is what people come away with.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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That makes my keyboard more important to survival.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
A portion of your objective analysis is irrelevant to the matter. The regeneration restores more hit points than the self-heals over time... so what? How much of that regeneration would be occurring when you're at full HP and is therefore wasted? The regeneration does not 'ramp up' in combat (which Willpower DOES). Also, how much of the self-healing gets wasted like all that regen? NONE, as long as you're paying attention. The self-heals occur entirely ON DEMAND - i.e. when you NEED it, unlike the regen. This makes the self-heals more important to survival.
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If you're saying heals are always better than regeneration regardless of the difference in magnitude between them that's your prerogative. However, mine is to state that its generally without merit. What I can say is that the mechanical difference between regeneration and on-demand healing is something that can be analyzed quantitatively**, and doesn't generate the results you imply for most interesting non-degenerate cases. Which means as a subjective opinion, you're entitled to that perspective in the sense of exploring subjective reasons for valuing in-game capabilities. However, that perspective plays essentially no role in either designing or balancing the game.
** The "on-demand" nature of heals was examined in my irrelevant objective analysis back in I7. Basically, the quantitative advantage is entirely due to frontloading, which can be calculated in a sliding-window analysis. That advantage dissipates rapidly except for the singular case where the scrapper deliberately waits to achieve the state of being at full health *and* fully recharged heals before initiating any fight. Ironically, the only time this doesn't incur a penalty that exceeds the advantage is when you have high regeneration relative to the incoming damage curve. In other words, this "on-demand" perspective turns out to be quantitatively rubbish. Its sole benefit is playstyle-related: some players find it easier to manage heals than pace regeneration. Playstyle preferences have nothing to do with intrinsic value, however.
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Heals are always perceptually more important for Regeneration because regeneration is always on. As a result, you're only ever seeing heals stacked onto regeneration. Its extremely rare that people see heals without the regeneration and then the regeneration without the heals for extended periods of time to allow for comparison. It would take careful deliberate testing to tease the two effects apart.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I suspect it's because practical play experience tells a different qualitative story. A lot of the people try to play their melee characters in highly stressful situations. My own experience in doing that with /Regen tells me that their passive health regeneration isn't sufficient to carry the day, especially when Dull Pain is down. That forces me to rely on Reconstruction to survive (maybe!). I believe that having that power become crucial to success implants in people's minds that it is a dominant effect - they feel the passive regen "doesn't do anything". Of course that's not true, but looking back at the heat of battle I believe this is what people come away with.
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This is very much identical to the old saying that you always find things in the last place you looked. That's always true, because once you find it you stop looking. Heals are always the final determining factor for survival, because they are the last - and only - option when regeneration is always on. Either a heal saves you, or failing to use a heal kills you, or you were doomed either way. You can never see a case where regen saves you after a heal fails to do so, because most people don't define failure in terms that allow for that possibility.
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Ah, the dangers of perception. I suppose for those people that don't think the Regeneration does much, they should take a run with an Invuln or even SR Scrapper. My Regen Scrapper pretty much only has to use his heals for tougher boss fights (as someone else mentioned earlier), because his Regen covers pretty much all the more "minor" damage coming in.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Heals are always perceptually more important for Regeneration because regeneration is always on. As a result, you're only ever seeing heals stacked onto regeneration. Its extremely rare that people see heals without the regeneration and then the regeneration without the heals for extended periods of time to allow for comparison. It would take careful deliberate testing to tease the two effects apart.
This is very much identical to the old saying that you always find things in the last place you looked. That's always true, because once you find it you stop looking. Heals are always the final determining factor for survival, because they are the last - and only - option when regeneration is always on. Either a heal saves you, or failing to use a heal kills you, or you were doomed either way. You can never see a case where regen saves you after a heal fails to do so, because most people don't define failure in terms that allow for that possibility. |
Of course, this damage doesn't seem so minor if you don't have as much Regen to cover it...
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA