Request/Suggest about KB switch
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-11-07 12:12 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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There's already a precedent for it though. Teleport effects can be turned off on the recipient's end.
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Originally Posted by Tabik
Any game dynamic that places control over my power's effects to another player is a dynamic I'm against, regardless of who that player is.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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While I hate knockback with a passion, I think this is a terrible idea. My proposel (although I know it won't happen) is to allow players to turn their knockback powers into knockdown. This would be a choice so you wouldn't be forced into it.|
Originally Posted by Gekkoh
Could dev add Team Switch about Knock Back ?
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That's just me though.
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Its not a strong precedent: that option is there because recall can be used as a griefing tactic. Its telling that the devs have still refused to put a "prompt for buff" switch comparable to the prompt for teleport switch.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
There's already a precedent for it though. Teleport effects can be turned off on the recipient's end.
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On the subject of the OP, at some point, you have to tolerate the actions of other players in an MMO. If I want to KB targets into trees, that's my prerogative. Your prerogative is to not play with me. But the other players in the game are not your pets and giving players the ability to control the execution of the powers of other players is a line I believe the dev team should never cross.
On the general subject of knockback: KB is an easy target. I've seen lots of people claim to have seen a team wipe "because" of knockback. But teams wipe for all sorts of other reasons. Maybe in those situations those teams would not have wiped if, say, the players in it built differently. In my opinion, saying KB wiped a team is no different than saying that the team composition or the team member builds wiped the team. Or team skill in dealing with knockback. I am a consistent enemy of the playstyle and build police, but I have no problem using their tactics against them. If someone tells me my KB is hurting their play, I'll tell them their incompetence in dealing with KB is hurting my play.
Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game.
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/signed
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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i rather like this. Y'know, at this point i'm rather curious about how you would've designed CoH if you'd been hired as the powers designer back before launch and known then what you know now. i expect it would be both familiar and quite different. i'd expect things like diminishing returns and ED to be built in, but have often wondered if they would follow the curve that was used, especially for ED.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game.
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i bet the game systems would've been coded to be more flexible and simpler to modify if the current Dev team had also been on board back then knowing what is known now, but then hindsight is like that.
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I've had a teammate complain about knockback on a TF, then a mission later they realised they were the only member who wasn't doing loads of knockback.
It's useful. It's fun. It's something you have to work around. You're not a stupid mob who blindly follows targets everywhere, you're a thinking, reasoning player who can adapt to changing circumstances.
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I'm totally copying this for the next 20-30 bazillion "please fix KB" threads....|
Originally Posted by Doc_Hornet
Sounds like the problem here is melee toon movement not being suppressed enough. Let's let the team member -- or, better yet, any team member with knockback powers -- be able to choose to supress all melee toon movement or not.
Or maybe, change run forward to run backwards, just so they don't move towards next group with taunt aura blazing. I know running around the map during combat is important for that "Hero Feeling," but unfettered melee toon movement is just harmful. . |
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Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
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That sounds awfully vindictive, coming at the end of what would otherwise be a well-reasoned post.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police
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Probably not actually. I'm sure that there are some things that would have been done differently with hindsight (i.e. power customization) but the fact is in software making a large program that is easy to modify is a pipe dream. Unless you know and plan out every single modification you will ever want to make sooner or later you will come to a situation that you didn't predict that isn't easily supported by the code base. This is made worse for software (liek most games) that is being developed in a rush to allow it to ship before funding gets cut.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i bet the game systems would've been coded to be more flexible and simpler to modify if the current Dev team had also been on board back then knowing what is known now, but then hindsight is like that.
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I sort of agree with this. The PnP Champions game had knock back based on part of the damage that was dealt. That wouldn't be too rough a formula to come up with it's just a proportion of damage/hit points/distance. Just because a player is a scrapper or a tank doesn't mean that they should be immune to KB effects. Super strong comic heros (that are essentially unaffected by KB in this game) spend lots of time flying around when attacked by equivalently powered baddies in the comics. (Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer has an excellent example.)|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not a strong precedent: that option is there because recall can be used as a griefing tactic. Its telling that the devs have still refused to put a "prompt for buff" switch comparable to the prompt for teleport switch.
On the subject of the OP, at some point, you have to tolerate the actions of other players in an MMO. If I want to KB targets into trees, that's my prerogative. Your prerogative is to not play with me. But the other players in the game are not your pets and giving players the ability to control the execution of the powers of other players is a line I believe the dev team should never cross. On the general subject of knockback: KB is an easy target. I've seen lots of people claim to have seen a team wipe "because" of knockback. But teams wipe for all sorts of other reasons. Maybe in those situations those teams would not have wiped if, say, the players in it built differently. In my opinion, saying KB wiped a team is no different than saying that the team composition or the team member builds wiped the team. Or team skill in dealing with knockback. I am a consistent enemy of the playstyle and build police, but I have no problem using their tactics against them. If someone tells me my KB is hurting their play, I'll tell them their incompetence in dealing with KB is hurting my play. Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game. |
The other thing that is noteworthy is that KB in the game is a complete lock out of using powers but in the Comics "blasters" like Johnny Storm are still getting shots off mid KB because it's thematically appropriate for them to do so.
That's what Acrobatics "should" do for you. It should allow you to attack while being KB'd and you should have a % chance to land on your feet and avoid the getting up animation rather than just ignore KB affects below certain magnitude.
I doubt that it would be resonable to propose and problematic to implement but it would enhance the flavor of the game if you are trying to parallel the comics.
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-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
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I'd prefer if the Fire attacks caused either a fear/runaway scatter or a Stop/Drop/Roll scatter.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game.
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To be honest, I am not sure how much AoE KB would reduce efficiency/balance AoEs, since I am not convinced it has a big impact now.
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Loathe as I am to say it, players who have knockback have to learn to play it. As has been noted, knockback can be a powerful tool when used properly, though I'll readily admit, it can be a pain in the behind when used poorly.
Would you believe I have a Super Strength Tanker that I spent three levels (L33-35) with the slotting: 1EndRedx, 1Acc, 3KB in all his attacks!
I've often suggested that knockback be even MORE prevalent. I mean, its' one of the few real comic book standards, and we often see characters ignoring it. Go look up the fight between Superman and Captain Marvel on Youtube. Most would agree that they're Tanks, but they're knocking each other all over the place.
In my opinion, I'd make only one real change to knockback in general, and that's to add a little damage to it. I mean, if I get sent flying 30 feet through the air, landing is going to be somewhat painful. The other, related, change I'd make is to make knockback unresistable or at least higher mag when Rage is running (Super Strength).
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game.
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This please!
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"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
Some time ago, I put forward an idea, maybe its time has come.
Ok, here we go.
First, change ALL knockback in the game to Knockdown/up. Then, make it so adding one knockback enhancer changes that effect to knockback. Finally, make it so knockback enhancers add a damage effect to knockback.
That way, those that hate knockback needn't put up with it, and those that do can have it.
Now, as mentioned, there are a few powers that might require a little looking over for balance reasnos, but in general, I think this might be good. What say you all?
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Good thing I didn't use that adjective then. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its not a strong precedent: that option is there because recall can be used as a griefing tactic. Its telling that the devs have still refused to put a "prompt for buff" switch comparable to the prompt for teleport switch.
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| Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game. |
Taking efficiency out of the equation, KB just gets on my nerves sometimes. Especially AoE KB. I have characters, like my PB, who have AoE KB and really I just don't like playing the character sometimes because of it. Even if the KB was twice the damage it would still be annoying.
I find the pro-KB camp to be just as unreasonable as the anti-KB camp. The presumption, stated more than once by people in this thread, is that the only reason folks might not like KB is because of efficiency reasons. I don't think that's reasonable or fair. Personally, I get annoyed at KB sometimes, because I'll be playing my DM brute, pop off a Soul Drain and get the buff of one because of KB. Does this tick me off enough to want to kick someone? No. But it's not fun to have your powers be interfered with by someone else.
After all, is that what all you pro-KB folks are arguing? That you find KB fun, and you shouldn't have to conform your playstyle to other's desires? Well, that's exactly what you're asking people that don't like KB to do. Conform their playstyle to you. To ignore the things that they might find fun in the game so that you have more fun. You're making a value judgment that your playstyle is somehow more "valid" and it's just as unreasonable.
Personally, I'm all for choice. Give people a way to convert KB into KD and then you're done.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Well, there's the minor point that the Devs put knockback in the game. And it's in comics books, big-time. And movies. And every tabletop superhero game I've ever played. And in real life, when enough energy is involved.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
After all, is that what all you pro-KB folks are arguing? That you find KB fun, and you should have to conform your playstyle to other's desires? Well, that's exactly what you're asking people that don't like KB to do. Conform their playtime to you. To ignore the things that they might find fun in the game so that you have more fun.
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So, other than in City of Heroes, comics, movies, superhero games in general, and real life, your position holds true.
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The devs put a lot of things into the game. For example, Arcanaville has railed against the extreme amounts of to-hit in the game for years. The devs put that in the game too. And I can think of multiple examples in comics, movies, etc. of people being near perfect shots. But that, thankfully, has to give way at times to gameplay necessity to make the game fun.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Well, there's the minor point that the Devs put knockback in the game. And it's in comics books, big-time. And movies. And every tabletop superhero game I've ever played. And in real life, when enough energy is involved.
So, other than in City of Heroes, comics, movies, superhero games in general, and real life, your position holds true. |
Likewise, there's nothing unreasonable about anyone suggesting that they don't find KB fun. Just because the devs put it in the game doesn't mean that they couldn't take it out.
And I question whether it's really that prevalent in comics, the movies, et. al. It's there of course, but nowhere near as common as it is in this game. Sure, extremely strong foes can knock foes around, but it's usually used to demonstrate their power and not something that occurs on every blow. Take for example, Cyclops. His blast are kinetic energy. And they're very powerful. But they don't cause KB every time he uses them. Hell, I just looked at a few X-men and there were multiple times where he didn't KB a foe once in a single issue.
So your point, facially sound, doesn't really change the point. Actually proves my point. That the Pro-KB crowd is every bit as unreasonable as the anti-KB crowd. I'm pro-choice. Play however, you like, but let's give people the opportunity to "nerf" (as the pro-KB people call it) their KB to KD.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
There's already a precedent for it though. Teleport effects can be turned off on the recipient's end.
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That's not quite the same, especially considering that the particular 'precedent' you refer to was put in place specifically because TP Friend could be used for griefing other players. Mis-using KB might be an annoyance, but it's hardly griefing, at least not in the same sense as TP'ing another player into a group of baddies for your own sick satisfaction would be. ("Your" is used generally, not referring to any specific person.)
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Let's look at that last line:|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
So your point, facially sound, doesn't really change the point. Actually proves my point. That the Pro-KB crowd is every bit as unreasonable as the anti-KB crowd. I'm pro-choice. Play however, you like, but let's give people the opportunity to "nerf" (as the pro-KB people call it) their KB to KD. |
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| but let's give people the opportunity to "nerf" (as the pro-KB people call it) their KB to KD |
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Could dev add Team Switch about Knock Back ? Like team leader can choose Knock back allowed or not. When KB not allowed, all KB power effect to KU or KD. |
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Yes, yes i would.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Would you believe I have a Super Strength Tanker that I spent three levels (L33-35) with the slotting: 1EndRedx, 1Acc, 3KB in all his attacks!
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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/signed also.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
On the general subject of knockback: KB is an easy target. I've seen lots of people claim to have seen a team wipe "because" of knockback. But teams wipe for all sorts of other reasons. Maybe in those situations those teams would not have wiped if, say, the players in it built differently. In my opinion, saying KB wiped a team is no different than saying that the team composition or the team member builds wiped the team. Or team skill in dealing with knockback. I am a consistent enemy of the playstyle and build police, but I have no problem using their tactics against them. If someone tells me my KB is hurting their play, I'll tell them their incompetence in dealing with KB is hurting my play.
Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game. |
And Oh my! I was so tempted to say "To heck with the consequences", and just say "/jranger" to the OP.
There are so many reasons to just say no to the OPs suggestion.
And pretty much NO reason to say yes to the ability to nerf another players powers against enemies, no matter what those powers may be.
Bottom line: You ALREADY have the power to not have PowerSet-X on your team.
- If you are NOT the leader, quit.
- If you ARE the leader, you have the ability to kick the players with that powerset!
Even if I am not the one with that powerset, I want to know it if the leader is so intolerant, or so incompetent that they cannot adapt to different team makeup.
So I can notice that, and leave the team too.
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What about turning hurricane on and setting the tank to auto-follow? Sounds a bit like griefing to me.
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Originally Posted by Tabik
That's not quite the same, especially considering that the particular 'precedent' you refer to was put in place specifically because TP Friend could be used for griefing other players. Mis-using KB might be an annoyance, but it's hardly griefing, at least not in the same sense as TP'ing another player into a group of baddies for your own sick satisfaction would be. ("Your" is used generally, not referring to any specific person.)
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I´m against this. Also low dpa on ATs that can stack high amount of +damage would cause disruptions.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Frankly, if it was up to me, I would sooner eliminate all *non-KB* options than all the KB powers. In fact, knowing what I know now, in retrospect I would make all AoE damage deal knockback, and all powers above a certain DPA threshold deal mandatory knockback. That would be a deliberate shot across the bow of the efficiency police, and it would simultaneously resolve the problem with AoE balance in this game. |
Like team leader can choose Knock back allowed or not.
When KB not allowed, all KB power effect to KU or KD.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.