Request/Suggest about KB switch

I'd love to see an explanation for RoA causing KB, especially with its existing animation.

Not unless you also change KB to work radially from the center of the impact point, or change every vertical surface in the game to be deformable so foes could be blown through them. You'd also have to change how KB reacts with floors, since making floors deformable would just lead to players making big craters and using them to corral foes and AoE them to death the same way they use walls and corners now (you couldn't make floors infinitely deformable, they'd have to have a finite limit at some point).

Otherwise, your changes really wouldn't accomplish what you hope for. Might force some players to spend an extra second or two lining up spawns so they can catapult them into walls/corners or floors, but other than that, it'd be business as usual.

HeHe. True.

Ironically, if that just happened, we wouldn't have need for "the thread of the month".

Your idea is clear to me. The point is that the decision is made when you do the slotting. If I want to knock down this mob, but knock back the other mob, you won't be able to do it under your scheme. As you and I both mentioned, we will need two builds, one for knockback and one for knockdown. And I don't think that you can knockdown this mob, change build and knockback the other mob. In my opinion, the decision to do a knockdown or knockback should be made during combat, not when you do slotting.

In my opinion, tweaking through enhancement is not that much of an improvement. The bad thing about the current knockback is that when you want to knockdown, you can't do it. For your scheme, once you choose to knockdown, and if you want to knockback, you can't do it. Your scheme is an improvement in the sense that you've given the choice between knockdown and knockback when you slot. But after that, the inflexibility is still there.

It's not that simple. To me, I love KB because I find it fun AND useful. If I were to break it down, I'd say...75% fun and 25% mitigation.

I get your fun is max exp/min, but mine is not. Your playstyle does not supersede anyone elses, and vice versa. I am an intelligent player which is why I use Hover on my Energy blaster or why I find corners/walls before I use powers like Shockwave on my Claws Brute.

Speaking of which, has you ever use SW on a claws brute? That's almost as fun as Power Thrust!

I'd like to add that fun for some involves making characters with specific concepts. This may mean that, like Havok or Cyclops, their Energy Blaster cannot fly.

You may not have intended to imply this, but if someone doesn't have hover on their Energy Blaster, that doesn't make them an unintelligent player.

Kinda why I said "I" took Hover and not "everyone should take Hover."

We're not talking about just us, though. This is an MMO - we play with other peeps. Now, of you're KBing half of every spawn all over the mapm is the rest of the team having 75% fun like you because of your actions? Is your 25% mitigation helping the team so much that it outweighs any annoyance they feel. A better question, one of personal character: does your 75% fun outweigh any annoyance the rest of the team feels?

You assume much, but 'get' little. Theme & Appearance is more important to me than min/max stuff. However, I don't want to be utterly gimped, nor play a toon that isn't welcome on teams.

And here we go... You don't have the capability to turn your KB into KD so, like so many others, you use tactics and the environment to do it for you. A Wall becomes the tool to turn your KB into KD. Mmmkay. Why would you ever bother with such strategies? Why don't you just let it fly? Wouldn't that be more 'fun'?

I'm sure it is... Have you ever used Luminous Detonation on a Peacebringer? Man, that power is fun to watch. Guaranteed to send bodies flying all over the place. Too bad that Meleers don't enjoy it as much as I do when I'm on their teams *shrug*

I swear I don't know why these debates continue. With the way the current game is set up, KB annoys teams more than it helps. A player can work to minimize it, but can never stop it completely, and while doing so, effetiveness is lowered (you will lose an attack or two here and there while positioning). How does that help teams? Easy answer - it doesn't.

You've obviously never teamed with my Bro and his @#$%^& AR/DEV blasters.

At his age, he doesn't remember what I told him the last time we teamed. As I have to remind him every time... "Dude, you don't get a +ToHit by trying to shoot them point blank in the face." I find that TP Teammate allows me to position him where he will be the most effective and least disruptive.

He takes it all in good stride, and I really don't get frustrated with him (much)as when it comes down to it we're all here to have fun, maybe blow off some steam, and in some cases blow &^%$ up and not have to think about it.

I think Luquid said it, and I agree with the sentiment, the use of my powers don't trump the fun/effectiveness of the team as a whole. I will hold off on my KB powers until I have positioned myself to where it will benefit the team the most.

I get a great deal of satisfaction when I can pop off Explosive Arrow on stragglers/runners and plop their butt at the tanks/scrappers feet.

Angel Red
"We're heroes. Fighting injustice is the thing we do." ~Rebel Scum

I'm not really concerned with how my KB affects the teams mitigation. When I use KB, I use it effectively and without annoyance. I KNOW it's effective and not burdensome.


When I solo, I do "just let it fly." However, on teams I'm considerate towards the 7 other players and I try to minmize the KB while still obtaining effective mitigation from the KB. It's not mutually exclusive. I can have my way and not be a nuisance.


Fixed.

Please provide your evidence to support your claim. I have used Explosive Blast and Energy Torrent quite a few times to help mitigate incoming fire from a second group or an ambush. Claiming otherwise is dishonest at the very least.

I would in fact make KB work radially from the generation point (which would be point of impact for AoEs and attacker for cones and PBAoEs) but as far as I can tell there's no other requirement for KB physics from a balance perspective other than making it work in a directionally valid way. There's no specific balance directive that I can see that places requirements on the surrounding environment in the general case.

Have you ever been welcomed or invited to a team because you provide KB Mitigation? Have you ever been praised because your awesome KB 'saved' the team by keeping those nasty mobs away?

(I've got the feeling you're probably going to say yes, and I suspect you'll be referring to a specific test-tube incident as opposed to the whole issue - seems like a pattern for most KB defenders...)

Provide Evidence, eh: my evidence is anecdotal, and it's called Annoyance: mine and many others. Mine because I can't always perfectly control my KB (even though I'm darn good at it). Also Mine because I'm even required to control it. Finally, my Teamates, who just don't want it period...

So how in Hades do you provide numerical evidence for the annoyance factor? No one is saying that KB can't controlled, nor that there isn't isolated moments where it's sorta beneficial. But by and large, it's not welcome on teams. That's the only evidence I have and need. A KBer is welcome on a team if they can control their KB, or in other words, if they don't cause any.

And there's no need to keep bolding 'ME' in posts, as if I'm the only one who feels this way. I've been on too many teams and seen too many threads where KB was brought up to know that isn't true. Start a poll if you don't believe me. Ask this: when teaming with 4 or more, do you generally prefer there be KB Activity, or very little to none? I'd be curious as to those results. If over half say they prefer KB, I'll say you're right and KB is not a problem.

I would hate to see the game if it were impacted by the common complaints on the forum. You don't really want to go in that direction for this argument...........

So blowing spawns into corners or confined areas like those rail cars on the destroyed KR map, places where they couldn't be knocked back any further or in any direction which would place them outside of further AoE, wouldn't matter for whatever type of balance you're attempting to achieve?

I'm sure I'm missing something, or misunderstood your goal, but I'm not seeing this change AoE DPA or efficiency. I am seeing it significantly boost survivability, across the board, since one could simply corner foes and keep them on their backs indefinitely, so with your AoE KB addition, not only do AoEs become mass spawn disposal tools, they also obviate nearly every control, ToHit debuff, Damage debuff, Defense buff and Resistance buff in the game.

Unless you also change the vertical surfaces to allow them to be destroyed, at which point cornering spawns no longer works and they could be properly scattered to prevent them from being soft-controlled by KB. Yes?

I can understand your point. When I'm playing a melee toon, I really have a hate on for knockback. Also, I usually target a foe and instead of "manually" (for lack of a better word) running up to the foe and wailing on him, I hit my follow key so I know I'll be in melee range. If someone knocks my target away, I automatically follow them. This is were I end up in trouble. Often I end up too close to another group of foes and aggro them up.

Most of the time I can back pedal in time and not trigger the next group... but not all the time. Its also annoying on my Dark Regen scrapper when I leap into the middle of a group of foes and a fraction of a second before I hit my Soul Drain someone hits the group with an AoE or Cone knockback and I get no buff from Soul Drain.

Regardless of how I feel about knockback, I have to disagree with you about putting in a system that alters the function of player powers at another player's discretion. I choose my power sets and powers based on what they do. My choices in slotting my powers are based on what those powers do. No one should have the ability to alter my powers but me.

Let's give the Devs a bit of credit. I don't think they'd make game changes based a forum poll.

No. All that game balance requires is for the average amount of time necessary to employ the tactics you're describing to neutralize enough of the AoE advantage that what remains is a reasonable benefit for the amount of skill being employed.

I should also point out that AoE KB doesn't have to have 100% chance to take effect: for example in Explosive Blast its only 50%. Probabilistic knockback cannot be used in quite the same absolute manner for crowd control.

On the subject of knockdown mitigation, there's two things: one critters cannot be knocked down while they are getting up (they can be knocked back, but they cannot be forced to replay the rooted getting-up animation until they complete the one they are playing), so there are serious timing and recharge issues associated with trying to use AoE attacks to attempt perma-KB. Two: I previously mentioned that I would separate knockdown and knockback effects specifically to separate mitigation and movement, so in my version of these mechanics AoEs would have scattering knockback, but not necessarily consistent knockdown.

In terms of damage, what you're describing is not as efficient as you're suggesting it would be, especially with radial dispersion. It would be like trying to herd with bonfire: possible, but unlikely to be efficient relative to alternatives. At least not in my judgement based on my experience, which in the case of knockback is sizeable. In terms of mitigation what you're describing would be a problem if knockback and knockdown were linked, which is why I would unlink them.

....and that's pretty much why we have the "thread of the month". Just because people complain doesn't mean squat.

Take any powerset with one PBAoE or cone and one other AoE effect. Use PBAoE or cone to corner foes, which takes all of 1-2 seconds (if that long), then use the other AoE. Repeat until spawn is defeated.

KB in all AoE damage powers would only slow down the players who are limited to targeted AoE, which could scatter their foes if they weren't used intelligently. Anyone with cones and/or PBAoEs wouldn't even notice the difference if they're playing with any sense, especially in the case of cones.

It would only matter for targeted AoEs and outdoor maps.

Torrent, Tenebrous Tentacles, Night Fall.

It's not difficult to work around your timing and recharge issues. Hit them frequently enough, with your mechanics, and they will spend more time getting up or getting back into a position of attack than they will attacking.

That was just one example. There are numerous powersets with enough AoE effects to abuse this mechanic.

The knockdown chance for powers like Ice Slick or OSA is only 5-8% chance per 0.2s, but that's consistent enough to be considered very good mitigation. Granted, a cone, PBAoE or targeted AoE won't be hitting foes five times per second, but if you're hitting those same foes three times in a span of five seconds, you are going to get some good mitigation from the KB/KD, unless the chance for KB/KD is so low as to be negligible.

But you don't have true radial dispersion because the targeting system doesn't force it. Cones would be easy to use to KB foes into a specified location, they wouldn't even require extra time because any half intelligent cone user is going to line up a spawn for maximum coverage anyway. PBAoEs are just as simple to abuse, you just herd everything into a corner, take one step away from the corner and cut loose. Targeted AoEs? Target the fellow in the front.

Goodbye radial dispersion, hello controlled, directional KB.

You're focusing on targeted AoEs. Look at cones and PBAoEs. Play around with Torrent or Electron Haze for a while, then think about having three powers like that at your disposal and how you could leverage that.

Or play a human form Peacebringer and experiment with Solar Flare. It's only radial if you're in the middle. If you're standing with a clump of foes on one side...

Okay, you've got KB and KD separated, and KB no longer provides mitigation. This changes KB from a tool to an annoyance, unless you also add something to compensate for the lack of mitigation. What do you add, or are you adding anything? Damage when impacting surfaces? Briefer period of inactivity than is currently in the game (meaning, instead of KD, a second of "dazed" or some such)? Or do foes simply remain standing, like they do now if you hit them with KB too soon after knocking them down (which looks absolutely ridiculous)?

Also, you'd need to change the hit check mechanic in addition to everything else, because as it stands now, it doesn't matter if foes are knocked fifteen miles away, as long as they were within the radius of an AoE when it was activated. So even with 100% scatter mechanics, you're still going to see players executing two AoEs in a row with no decline in damage output, even if they're new and don't understand the mechanic, or just sloppy.

And what would you do about all of the powers which are purposely designed to prevent KB? Controller Holds and mass Immobilizations, for example. Remove all of the -KB from powers, or just the AoE powers and leave the single-target -KB powers intact?

And for that matter, what about powers like Torrent or Repulsion Bomb, which guarantee KB if you hit (because that's what they were designed to do)? Change those, too, or leave them alone?

Oh I can keep a single guy on his butt without those just due the constant stream of single target attacks. My gripe is more with the AoEs causing seperation, as you noted.

Really though, I should make myself clear, if that's my only gripe, it means I'm quite happy. It's a wonderful tool for a single guy, it's just annoying that it separates groups even with wall aiming, y'know?