City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Forgive me: Traps

Aquila_NA

By Aquila_NA,
Posted on: 2009-09-15 17:35 in Defenders

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
Sorry but 2.27 end/sec before attacking
Actually it's 3.2 end/sec. Big difference.

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This build is practically unplayable without a kin. lol attack 3 times, summon nado, LS and you are needing to rest heh.
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What do you do when you get hit by a rikti mez with dominate and it suppressed all your non-IO defense and hurricane and you get steamrolled in seconds?
What do all the primaries that aren't sonic, ff or traps do? Carry some break frees when you know you're going to fight rikti. With that level of defense, I start a LGTF with a 8-10 bfs and end up with some left over when I'm finished. The scenario you describe of needing to be babysat by a tank, having to hold back, getting steamrolled by rikti or running out of end... those things simply don't happen. Having used that build on dozens of ITF/LGTF/STFs, I can say that in-game results trump forum theory as to how well it works.

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but man defender traps is pretty potent.
The overall discusson on traps in this thread has convinced me it's more worthwhile than I gave it credit for off the cuff.

 

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Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet View Post
Actually it's 3.2 end/sec. Big difference.
no 2.27 end/sec burned just from toggles. Net recovery of less than 1 eps means in conjunction with how you have LS, nado, and FR slotted that to use 3 attacks and those summons would suck up about 78.5 endurance over ~10 seconds so a total of 68 end gone just like that and such low net recovery that like I said you need a kin for it to be playable.

I find it trying to play toons with less than 2 eps net recovery, that build has 0.93 eps net recovery.

Adding in the extra mitigation of tough+weave on a stormy is a PITA on the end bar and takes heavy slotting to make possible. Something a 32 end cost LS is not helping with.

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What do all the primaries that aren't sonic, ff or traps do? Carry some break frees when you know you're going to fight rikti. With that level of defense, I start a LGTF with a 8-10 bfs and end up with some left over when I'm finished. The scenario you describe of needing to be babysat by a tank, having to hold back, getting steamrolled by rikti or running out of end... those things simply don't happen. Having used that build on dozens of ITF/LGTF/STFs, I can say that in-game results trump forum theory as to how well it works.
Exactly they use inspirations. Now add oranges to the traps def because he doesn't need bfs or purples, or even greens really if he uses triage ontop of his massive mitigation. The gap just got larger.

The great thing about traps is that even with the same sleep hole as FF and sonic your def shield isn't suppressed when it happens so you keep protecting the team. And because most of your powers act outside of you once cast or have lingering effects getting slept is not really a very big deal.

If you've ever wanted to build a "tankfender" style defender I'd say traps is the way to go. It works in a number of other build types too. The only time I've felt my traps corr isn't really good is on a team that can vaporize mobs. It's pretty easy to feel inconsequential no matter what you are playing on those kind of teams though. And really with the +4 option now there is little reason to breeze through stuff like that unless that is the desire.

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The overall discusson on traps in this thread has convinced me it's more worthwhile than I gave it credit for off the cuff.
This is good news, it is a really good set that has gotten a bad rap cause it wasn't that good pre IO's and cause the PT nerf made what few people were using the set speak ill of it.

Traps imo benefits like superreflexes does from IO's. It goes from decent, but surpassed by many of its brethren, to right near the top.

 

Posted

Honestly i think its great just using regular io´s and so´s. The procs i´m throwing at it to appease my procaholism is just icing on the cake.

I dont feel slow and i would rather plant a mortar than retoggle offensive toggles all day long.

Kind of want to roll a traps/rad, traps/dark and traps/ice as well

 

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Originally Posted by TRTerror View Post
Honestly i think its great just using regular io´s and so´s. The procs i´m throwing at it to appease my procaholism is just icing on the cake.

I dont feel slow and i would rather plant a mortar than retoggle offensive toggles all day long.

Kind of want to roll a traps/rad, traps/dark and traps/ice as well
I'm pondering traps/dark. The debuff potential here is, well,... horrifying.

 

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My Traps/AR Defender just hit 9, and I'm loving the ride. I'm amazed that Caltrops is REALLY useful. I knew what a monster AM can be, but with the Defender Modifiers added in.. just wow. And FFG at 8????? That right there sells the set almost by itself. I can already see the possibilities this guy will have, what with multiple Achilles Procs

I get the feeling Traps is recieving the same reception TA got.. luke warm at best until people really tinkered around with the set and realized what a beast it can be. The debuffing levels of a Traps/Dark or /Rad are just downright scary.



"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat

 

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Originally Posted by Benchpresser View Post
My Traps/AR Defender just hit 9, and I'm loving the ride. I'm amazed that Caltrops is REALLY useful. I knew what a monster AM can be, but with the Defender Modifiers added in.. just wow. And FFG at 8????? That right there sells the set almost by itself. I can already see the possibilities this guy will have, what with multiple Achilles Procs

I get the feeling Traps is recieving the same reception TA got.. luke warm at best until people really tinkered around with the set and realized what a beast it can be. The debuffing levels of a Traps/Dark or /Rad are just downright scary.
Achilles heel -res according to redtomax:
Effect does not stack from same caster

However are mortars considered separate entities?

 

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Originally Posted by TRTerror View Post
Achilles heel -res according to redtomax:
Effect does not stack from same caster

However are mortars considered separate entities?
They don't stack from the same power, but slotting 1 in both Burst and Slug will stack. So I can effectively floor a boss's Defense and Resistance with some luck.



"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Benchpresser View Post
My Traps/AR Defender just hit 9, and I'm loving the ride. I'm amazed that Caltrops is REALLY useful. I knew what a monster AM can be, but with the Defender Modifiers added in.. just wow. And FFG at 8????? That right there sells the set almost by itself. I can already see the possibilities this guy will have, what with multiple Achilles Procs

I get the feeling Traps is recieving the same reception TA got.. luke warm at best until people really tinkered around with the set and realized what a beast it can be. The debuffing levels of a Traps/Dark or /Rad are just downright scary.
Even thogh I've got a rad/rad redside, traps/dark (having played both sets) looks more than scary to me.

 

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Originally Posted by Benchpresser View Post
They don't stack from the same power, but slotting 1 in both Burst and Slug will stack. So I can effectively floor a boss's Defense and Resistance with some luck.
Achilles Heel in Slug?

 

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Now, if we could only get the powers team to fix time bomb into something useful. I would prefer either the timer for int/explode to be cut in half, or, give me something else like gun drone or something.

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Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
no 2.27 end/sec burned just from toggles. Net recovery of less than 1 eps means in conjunction with how you have LS, nado, and FR slotted that to use 3 attacks and those summons would suck up about 78.5 endurance over ~10 seconds so a total of 68 end gone just like that and such low net recovery that like I said you need a kin for it to be playable.
68 end gone just like that is still 47 end remaining. That's a significant cushion against zero which is easily managed. In actual use, peak end burn isn't sustained 100% of the time, while recovery is constant.

 

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Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Now, if we could only get the powers team to fix time bomb into something useful.
Oh like Gale? Or Thunder Clap? Or Lightning Storm after the recharge changes?
Perhaps Repel and Sonic Repulsion? Or maybe Black Hole?

 

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Originally Posted by TRTerror View Post
Oh like Gale? Or Thunder Clap? Or Lightning Storm after the recharge changes?
Perhaps Repel and Sonic Repulsion? Or maybe Black Hole?
I c wut u did thar! The only one that really fits though is Lightning Storm since it's actually a tier 9 power and even then it doesn't because the power is highly useful all the time.

 

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Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet View Post
68 end gone just like that is still 47 end remaining. That's a significant cushion against zero which is easily managed. In actual use, peak end burn isn't sustained 100% of the time, while recovery is constant.
So that's the storm build you run then is that accurate?

Fair enough, you and I just play our storms quite differently. I have a net end gain of ~2.5 eps on my fire/storm and my storm/sonic with all toggles going and I still have to be prepared to use hibernate as a recovery tool for the troller and pop conserve power whenever it is up on the def.

Netting a little over half of your level 1 base recovery would make me delete the toon. But obviously YMMV as you run with that build and do well.

 

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Originally Posted by FuzzyWonder22 View Post
I c wut u did thar! The only one that really fits though is Lightning Storm since it's actually a tier 9 power and even then it doesn't because the power is highly useful all the time.
Tier is irrelevant. In fact be glad it is the tier 9 that sucks on traps as it makes the set mature even faster. Ya it would be nice if every power was a must have... or would it? Looking over my toons I habitually stay away from sets that require more than 7 powers as it just makes for too tight of a build.

LS is far from useful all the time. It costs too much end and fires too slowly to be useful all the time. It used to be useful all the time when you had it firing nearly twice as fast and slotted it for reduced end cost.

It needs to fire ~5-6 shots to start paying for itself which takes about 30-35 seconds. It is impossible to say that acid mortar has issues and then praise LS (not that you did, but others have spoken down about acid mortar) considering it has identical recharge and duration, but costs about 40% as much end to cast (while also drawing its own agro).

Of course I wouldn't mind if the traps cycled even faster as I don't agree with the design principle of needing to fully slot something for it to be perma on fundamental set powers and I've asked BaB's to take a look at the stupid hitches and pauses that summoning many of the traps causes that actually make them take longer than they should to deploy, but really traps is a solid set. It just requires a playstyle adjustment...sort of.

 

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Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Gale is very useful.
Amen, just ask the Pressure Cookers from Repeat Offenders.

As for Traps, T.R.I.C.K. over on Virtue (another Repeat Offenders group) just started accepting Traps/* defenders. We ran a team today of all (7) Traps/* defenders and 1 Fire/Thermal Controller (it was kinda random). Set at +2, we were unstoppable from L2 up until we stopped around L15. Once again, RO's shown that a group of like-Defenders can become a truely unstoppable force. The only issue we ran into was with some AoE mezzes from the Lost since Traps doesn't have any kind of granted Mez protection. Throw a few people in with Stimulant and you're good to go!

http://www.repeat-offenders.net

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44395 - Walkin in a Winter Wonderland - Fun and Soloable Holiday Arc.

 

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I just got off a level 14-ish 8-person PUG in Steel that had 4 Trapfenders, including my Traps/AR. One of the others called it a "rainbow wrecking ball". We ran about 20% over the defense softcap most of the time, and every spawn got at least two mortars and a PGT or two. I didn't bother to check the difficulty setting, but it was a target-rich environment--as many Lost and CoT as would fit in the halls, generally, with a generous helping of purple bosses. The only thing that even slowed us down was a portal room, and that was just because we wasted some time mopping up worthless behemoths.

The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.

 

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Originally Posted by JayboH View Post
Gale is very useful.
Yeah in my opinion its useless. Just like your opinion that time bomb is useless.

 

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Originally Posted by Balanced View Post
I just got off a level 14-ish 8-person PUG in Steel that had 4 Trapfenders,
Nice! I'm 3-boxing a set of Traps/X Defenders. X is Sonic, Dark, and Psychic. Its crazy good fun. Soft Cap by level 9! Or by level 8 if you took Hover or Combat Jumping at level 6, but I didnt take it until level 10, so my trio didn't hit the defense soft cap until level 9. Heh!

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It's fantastic insanity! A lot of people forget about stacking buffs/debuffs. Defenders, when running solo or as the only 'fender on a team, aren't extremely relevant, usually, but they become massively relevant when you stack a few of the same type together.

http://www.repeat-offenders.net

35218 - Shocking Developments - Where's Gameamp!?
44395 - Walkin in a Winter Wonderland - Fun and Soloable Holiday Arc.

 

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Originally Posted by TRTerror View Post
Yeah in my opinion its useless. Just like your opinion that time bomb is useless.
I'll second the uselessness of Time Bomb. That power is such a complete waste for a team of any competency it's not funny. It may be useful occasionally while soloing, but for the most part Trip Mine does its job better, faster, and cheaper.

Time Bomb is redundant in a bad way.


Oh, and hey Ron. We were actually running +3 toward the end of the teamage. Trapfenders together are beastly.

Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
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Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize

 

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Originally Posted by RonJ73 View Post
The only issue we ran into was with some AoE mezzes from the Lost since Traps doesn't have any kind of granted Mez protection. Throw a few people in with Stimulant and you're good to go!
FFG offers Stun, Hold and Immob protection. Of course, the Lost would have bypassed that with their AoE sleep. Traps still gets you protection from the two most deadly mezzes, though.

 

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Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly View Post
FFG offers Stun, Hold and Immob protection. Of course, the Lost would have bypassed that with their AoE sleep. Traps still gets you protection from the two most deadly mezzes, though.
The sleeps have to hit you first, and the defense from multiple FFGs should keep most of them off of you. I got hit once or twice with sleeps, as I recall, but it didn't matter much--our defenses stayed up, so I just waited the mez out with stuff whiffing around us.

As to solo or 1-to-a-team defenders being irrelevant...no. I find defenders quite soloable; they often require more patience and strategy, but they can get the job done--I soloed the Posi TF with my TA/A back when they were new. A single defender can turn a team around, too, although they won't usually turn a perma-teamwipe PUG into a juggernaut alone. It's just the contrast with the outrageous power of an all-defender team that makes lower concentrations of defenders look weak.

The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.