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I'm aware of that, and I'm indifferent about being able to do level from 1 to 50 in atlas, but it IS intended. You can effectivly see 100% of what the game has by fighting in AE, but it is heavily diluted with customs and mobs that don't actually exist in the game.
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Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Which is the one of the saddest things I've ever heard, reaching the level cap without ever leaving Atlas Park...my friend's told me there are some actual new players who have done this. People who have actually never stepped foot outside of Atlas Park ever except to maybe get their cape/aura costume pieces.
Excuse me, I'm going to go resub to WoW and try to get to lvl 80 in Durotar while only seeing about 1% of what the game has to offer...or wait, no I'll go play FFXI and reach 75 in Valkurm Dunes, or better yet maybe pop on Everquest 2 and level up only in Antonica. (If you aren't aware those are all low level zones...actual with the level sync system they have now in FFXI I probably could lvl up all the way in Valkurm Dunes...so sad) |
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I seriously doubt the developers put in AE with the sole intention of allowing people to create their own mindless farms and to make the game even more of a grind. I seriously and utterly don't believe that at all because IMO if that was their intention with this system then that's a very stupid thing to do. In my eyes (and in many other people's eyes) AE farms are the bane of this game and have put the game in a stranglehold, plus it breeds noob after noob who gets powerleveled all the way up and then either runs off not knowing how to play his archetype or probably even what half his powers even do, or he just makes a new character and does itall over again. |
Originally Posted by Folonius
I'm aware of that, and I'm indifferent about being able to do level from 1 to 50 in atlas, but it IS intended. You can effectivly see 100% of what the game has by fighting in AE, but it is heavily diluted with customs and mobs that don't actually exist in the game.
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It's obvious you only care about the destination, but there are many who care more about the journey, and in a game like this I think that's much more important.
Out of curiosity, Folonius, if a MArc has rewards equal to your average mission outside the AE, because it doesn't use custom mobs or because it uses minion/lieut/boss groups all set to Hard or whatever the reason might be, would you still rate it 2 or 3 stars because it's not a boss farm? If so, would you then, theoretically, rate dev content lowly for these reasons?
You're in it for the rewards, cool, whatever. Not my cup of tea, but if you like it, that's your prerogative. Still, the movie analogy is still spot-on. It's easy to tell what arc is story-focused, and therefore unlikely to give boss-farm XP, and which is a boss-farm and therefore unlikely to tell an engaging story. These two try to accomplish completely different things, and so they should be judged by different standards. If you actively choose to play a story-focused MArc and then rate it lowly because it doesn't give farm-like XP, sure, you are excercising your right to rate arcs as you see fit, but you are also missing the point of the arc entirely, which makes one wonder why you played it in the first place.
Similarly, I don't play any farms when I see them just to 1-star them. Sure, I think they miss the point of the AE entirely, and I consider them dull even by MMO standards, but they're not what I'm after when using the MA.
The AE is an entire ghetto full of dining establishments. If you go to a 5-star restaurant only to remark on your blog that it took more time for your dinner to arrive than at a fast-food chain, you'll only make yourself look rather foolish.
The linked article seems to have a cynic's view about the "expected" behavior of MMO players, which makes the following baffling misunderstanding all the stranger:
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WHAT freakin' place is he playing where you can "oust and replace" a game master? In my decades of experience, it's more like "No one, under any circumstances, will agree to be game master, because then they don't really get to play. Once you find a game master you'd better not "oust" him or her because you'll never be able to "replace" him or her. You use whatever game master you can wheedle into doing the work, o you just don't get to play, period."
| This authority and arbitrariness is simpler to navigate when you're playing D&D with some friends around a table -- the GM is a pal of yours in whom you've put your trust for a few hours, and if she doesn't deliver the promised fun, she can be ousted and replaced. |
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Ahahaha, now here is enough truth for six threads.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
WHAT freakin' place is he playing where you can "oust and replace" a game master? In my decades of experience, it's more like "No one, under any circumstances, will agree to be game master, because then they don't really get to play. Once you find a game master you'd better not "oust" him or her because you'll never be able to "replace" him or her. You use whatever game master you can wheedle into doing the work, o you just don't get to play, period."
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I get to rate how I wish. that is the way the system works. If you make a mission where the risk doesnt equal reward (by definition any one with custom critters) than it deserves to be down graded. To get full rewards the critters have to be hard/hard. Instead of giving a bonus for this, the devs made this the baseline. Which tells us the risk vs reward concept is dead in COX.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
No, what's arrogant and stupid is making a blanket statement that "I will rate you one-star for X no matter what the actual quality of the mission is like".
Especially since the rule for XP is not "custom critters get less XP", it's "missions that don't provide an even spread of minion/lieutentant/boss get less XP". That has nothing to do with whether it has custom critters in it or not. |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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The intention of the AE was to create a alternate leveling path with reward parity with outside content. Or so the box led us to believe. Was this a lie?
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Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
"The intention of AE"? I'm pretty darn sure the original intention of AEs weren't for players to create an army of mindless farm missions that would rocket them through the levels without them even having to leave the starting zone (which as I've said elsewhere is freakin' sickening to me). As was said earlier, the intention of AEs were to allow players to create their own stories.
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Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Quote:
I can easily get an 80 without leaving a city. Bg's now give xp in wow and lots of people are leveling using them. Ive gotten from 71-79 in the last week.
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Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
Which is the one of the saddest things I've ever heard, reaching the level cap without ever leaving Atlas Park...my friend's told me there are some actual new players who have done this. People who have actually never stepped foot outside of Atlas Park ever except to maybe get their cape/aura costume pieces.
Excuse me, I'm going to go resub to WoW and try to get to lvl 80 in Durotar while only seeing about 1% of what the game has to offer...or wait, no I'll go play FFXI and reach 75 in Valkurm Dunes, or better yet maybe pop on Everquest 2 and level up only in Antonica. (If you aren't aware those are all low level zones...actual with the level sync system they have now in FFXI I probably could lvl up all the way in Valkurm Dunes...so sad) |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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The devs have altered the deal - pray they don't alter it further.
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
The intention of the AE was to create a alternate leveling path with reward parity with outside content. Or so the box led us to believe. Was this a lie?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I just thought out how to use the reduced xp for boss-only custom critter groups to my advantage!
My evil-evil plan is to include glowie traps in the mission. Players will be warned in the mission briefing, and the glowies will be non-required, and the text when activating will say "It's a Trap! Get away!" or some such. If completed, the glowie will summon a nasty ambush, which I can now arrange to have REDUCED XP on by making them all Custom Critters Bosses!
Bwa ha ha ha!
Yes, you should read mission descriptions!
www.paragonwiki.com is a great source of information for this game.
New or returning to the game? Want advice from experienced players who want to help YOU?
The Mentor Project: Part of the New Player Council.
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No, the deal is still the same.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The devs have altered the deal - pray they don't alter it further.
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Yes, AE was supposed to be the alternative to dev content. BUT, the term alternative implied an equally valid levelling tool, not a vastly superior one.
The way I see it, I16 is there to bring both methods, AE and dev content, closer to being equally valid choices. The dev content gains several of AE's selling points, like the SSK, and the ability to fight mobs at four levels above your own for maximum XP rewards, whereas AE's boss farms got nerfed and custom mobs with only a select few powers give lesser rewards.
In other words, if I14 gave us an alternative to dev content, I16 gives us an alternative to MA content.
For the record, though, I don't agree with letting custom mobs set to Standard give less than, well, standard XP. It's trying to hard to fix that risk-vs-reward ratio, and discourages the use of custom mobs in favour of the devs' own enemy groups. This, I fully agree, does go contrary when trying to express your own creativity without skewering the rewards of a mission or arc completely. I can see why the devs are this strict after the two big exploits and the boss farms, but I still hope they're going to change this before or after I16 goes live, give us a whee bit more leeway. They already took AE's position as holy grail of farming with the removal of boss farms, anyway, I don't think it's necessary to crack down even harder.
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And the upcoming AE 'nerfs' change nothing about that. They'll actually make that line more true. "with reward parity with outside content" is the key part there. Boss farms obviously don't fall under that.
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
The intention of the AE was to create a alternate leveling path with reward parity with outside content. Or so the box led us to believe. Was this a lie?
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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Hell, they're doing exactly the same thing they've done for years to non-AE content. Some mission gives way "too much" reward? Adjust it so it's in line with the others. Claiming the devs lied to us about what AE is, is rather silly.
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
And the upcoming AE 'nerfs' change nothing about that. They'll actually make that line more true. "with reward parity with outside content" is the key part there. Boss farms obviously don't fall under that.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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But the force is strong with this one!!!!!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The devs have altered the deal - pray they don't alter it further.
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Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
And the upcoming AE 'nerfs' change nothing about that. They'll actually make that line more true. "with reward parity with outside content" is the key part there. Boss farms obviously don't fall under that.
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reward parity is when a council boss in AE and non AE give exactly the same xp. not 50%
it has nothing to do with xp per min.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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If that is true, they are destined for failure. penalizing what your customers find fun and trying to force them to unfun activities does not bode well for the future.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Hell, they're doing exactly the same thing they've done for years to non-AE content. Some mission gives way "too much" reward? Adjust it so it's in line with the others. Claiming the devs lied to us about what AE is, is rather silly.
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I can see and amusement park that penalizes customers for using the most popular rides to try and get them to go on the unpopular ones. While refusing to fix the thing the customers find unfun.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Quote:
Good news! They are, when fought under the same conditions. It's just that AE includes conditions you won't get outside of AE... you can't compare those special conditions to the non-AE conditions... as there is NO equivalent, comparison attempts would thus be silly.| reward parity is when a council boss in AE and non AE give exactly the same xp. not 50% |
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| it has nothing to do with xp per min. |
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
If that is true, they are destined for failure. penalizing what your customers find fun and trying to force them to unfun activities does not bode well for the future.
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1.) Fix outliers (buff missions with too little xp, nerf ones with too much)
2.) Global change to put all the content more in line with what's desired (i.e. XP smoothing, the buff to XP from 1-20, etc).
In other words, the end result is MORE options with better XP.
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| I can see and amusement park that penalizes customers for using the most popular rides to try and get them to go on the unpopular ones. While refusing to fix the thing the customers find unfun. |
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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And quite obviously the atrocity known as the posi tf, you know, the first one most new players would try, stil has not been fixed. There has not been an increase to more difficult opponents, only decreases. instead of fixing problems, the devs try to incentivise them. No matter how many merits you throw at the posi tf, it wont improve it at all.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Good news! They are, when fought under the same conditions. It's just that AE includes conditions you won't get outside of AE... you can't compare those special conditions to the non-AE conditions... as there is NO equivalent, comparison attempts would thus be silly.
If you're interested in fastest leveling speed, then XP minute, and not xp per kill, should be your primary concern. XP per kill is only a means to an end. Okay, lets see if you can follow this for the dozenth time: 1.) Fix outliers (buff missions with too little xp, nerf ones with too much) 2.) Global change to put all the content more in line with what's desired (i.e. XP smoothing, the buff to XP from 1-20, etc). In other words, the end result is MORE options with better XP. Like the article even points out, just because it's "popular", doesn't mean it's good for the health of the game, or the long term enjoyment of the players. Otherwise, why not cut to the chase and let everyone start at 50 with free unlimited access to all IOs in the game? |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
Glad you already forgot the XP smoothing and Patrol XP... maybe you'll remember the XP bump for 1-20 coming in i16?
Posi isn't very good, and the devs have said so. They just have a limited amount of time, and completely rewriting a task force (which will piss off some people, there's always someone) takes quite a lot of time and has simply slipped in favor of new content.
Also, could you at least TRY to organize your sentences to make a little sense? You're jumping from subject to subject so it makes it rather difficult to know exactly what you're talking about (it appears like you contradict yourself multiple times in that post... then again, I could be giving you too much benefit of the doubt, and you are indeed simply contradicting yourself 
).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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From a dev standpoint it makes more sense to spend resources on a cool *new* TF than to re-do a lame old one.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Posi isn't very good, and the devs have said so. They just have a limited amount of time, and completely rewriting a task force (which will piss off some people, there's always someone) takes quite a lot of time and has simply slipped in favor of new content.
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I'm sure one of the reasons for the recent supercharging of leveling speeds (compared to the old days, anyway) is to zip players past all that crummy, outdated low level content and get them to the newer, funner stuff. AE also helps with this (although there's no guarantee the stuff you find is any better than kill everything in this string of generic warehouses, at least you're not getting run all over the city while you're doing it).
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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You shut your damn dirty mouth!|
Originally Posted by UnSub
Is this the thread where we come to bad mouth Company of Heroes?
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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I'll put your doubt to rest, no they didn't create AE for mindless farms. To many people, however, mindless farms are fun. I enjoy mindless farms just because of the sheer number of mobs, the difficulty, and the rewards. I enjoy farms with viable content even more.|
Originally Posted by Neg_rogue
I seriously doubt the developers put in AE with the sole intention of allowing people to create their own mindless farms and to make the game even more of a grind.
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Being able to farm and the rewards gained for finding a way to farm particular mobs is what I find fun. Take away the rewards gained for finding a way to farm, and now I'm only having half the fun. What's the point then?
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| I seriously and utterly don't believe that at all because IMO if that was their intention with this system then that's a very stupid thing to do. In my eyes (and in many other people's eyes) AE farms are the bane of this game and have put the game in a stranglehold, |
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| plus it breeds noob after noob who gets powerleveled all the way up and then either runs off not knowing how to play his archetype or probably even what half his powers even do, or he just makes a new character and does itall over again. |
The game mechanics isn't the only thing that changed in Co*. The caliber of people have changed as well and it's changed for the worse.
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| It's obvious you only care about the destination, but there are many who care more about the journey, and in a game like this I think that's much more important. |
That's the great thing about this game, you can have it either way and it's ok. But then you have people like yourself who says its not ok.
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My apologies. You're right, it's not my place to judge what's the "right way" to play because truthfully the right way to play is whatever allows you to have the most fun. The only reason I really got into this debate was because I didn't agree on rating an arc based on inaccurate reasons, and I didn't mean for it to escalate into anything more than that.|
Originally Posted by Folonius
That's the great thing about this game, you can have it either way and it's ok. But then you have people like yourself who says its not ok.
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Personally, if I was someone who was focused on reward and I came across an arc that was clearly more about the story of it I would either:
A) not play the arc at all
B) play the arc but not give it a rating since it doesn't fall in line with my values, and it wouldn't be fair to rate an arc based on values it wasn't meant to represent
C) rate it on story instead of reward since that's obviously what the creator cared more about
but that's just me...
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Originally Posted by Blpup
"its true tho xD" to little words? D:
was gona go for 1 but didnt let me |
Can you decipher please? I do not speak dumb down English.
Valaraine: Master Archer & Electricity Whiz.
(Archer - lvl 50, swordswoman - lvl 50, Elec zapper - lvl 35, Ice/DB tank - lvl 50, Arch/En - lvl 26, Lvl 33 Blade wielder, trick archer - lvl 34, flame tank - lvl 30, rad specialist - lvl 44.)
My DA page
Excuse me, I'm going to go resub to WoW and try to get to lvl 80 in Durotar while only seeing about 1% of what the game has to offer...or wait, no I'll go play FFXI and reach 75 in Valkurm Dunes, or better yet maybe pop on Everquest 2 and level up only in Antonica.
(If you aren't aware those are all low level zones...actual with the level sync system they have now in FFXI I probably could lvl up all the way in Valkurm Dunes...so sad)