I'm not intending to do that.
I agree with what you said, but that DOES NOTA go to say devs should DISALLOW something which up to this point has in reality been seemingly harmless, despite people claiming it is harmful to the game.
Farming allows social interaction, creates supply and demand for the economy, and no matter how you look at it, for the people that do it, it's a motivation to get involved with the game and players actively. It's called farming for a reason.
After 11 pages, I still don't understand your point. Are you trying to put a moral disincentive on the devs new policy?
In my opinion, if the devs don't want something, they should (and are entitled to) do whatever they want to stop it, be that DISALLOWing something which up to this point has in reality been seemingly harmless or not.
Player have no say whatsoever in the running of most online games. Everybody knows that when they subscribe/log in. If the devs listen to the players, then the players are fortunate. It's all there in the documentation.
Please fight My Brute: http://2hero.mybrute.com
Mission Architect 54161 - Michael Mundano, Megan Malloney and the Secret Senate.
Mission Architect 91838 - Constantinople Jones' Family Secret. A One Mission Story arc.
This is not a thread for discussion farming, or even discussing at all, it's a one-post-thread. Now All threads get derailed after a time, but if you want to argue you case it heaps of silly, reiterating posts, start your own thread about farming:
In this game, what do you consider to be your definition of an "exploit"?
Post three things: Your definition, an example of how it would apply in-game and an example of how it would NOT apply.
Something to get you people started again:
* Confusing a sky raider shield generator = exploit? Well, how about maximising damres and defence with more than one buffer (ff etc) that keep melee alts away while blasters/corrs/doms etc take'em out? or the old, obsolete trick of keeping 4+ accounts in standby in pvp base to buff you and tp you out of harms way?
* We all use stamina/hasten (well, most, on most alts), but how about regular teams using more than 3 kins/rads to keep speed and stamina insane without it? Using what's there, or exploit that should be nerfed? Imagine level 50 ice kin corrs nuking every mob... (yeah, it's really fun in reality as well)
* Shivans/vengeance in a so-called hard TF/SF?
* Ghosting missions and almost whole arcs gaining huge merit rewards in a short time (like some hero TFs or treespecs last mission)? Being smart and/or exploiting?
We all agree anything that makes you one-shot hamidon or solo him in any way is just wrong. I think we also all agree any good team getting good rewards for playing whatever mission/arc/tf/sf/trial outside of MA is just doing a good job with what's there...
...but where's that alluring thin line according to you?
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After 11 pages, I still don't understand your point. Are you trying to put a moral disincentive on the devs new policy?
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You need to realize that you can not convince a person like that. He KNOWS what is the CORRECT view. As a matter of fact he KNOWS the TRUTH. It's that simple, it seems from reading his posts. "I know what the right thing is and there is only one right thing... which I knows". I for my sake wish there were a ignorefunction on this forum.
I would also like to mention Risk:Reward of controllers as an AT is stupid.
Against the majorty of the content in the game there is very little risk to an intelligently played controller (perhaps intelligently and safely played any AT?)
infact the nearest semblance to Risk:Reward with a controller is Time:Reward, and often this is unbalanced in favour of Time.
It was nice to use the MA to speed up the early levels, since ive played every controller primary, and every secondary i know them well, its just different combinations now.
Also since i find a couple of level ranges a drag, different ones for different ATs, I hardly consider atleast my use of the MA as an exploit digging a character out of a rut.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Lots of interesting ideas but after playing many MMO's, it seems to me that in the end, an exploit is a player choosing to play the game in any way not envisaged by the developers. Since it's their game and we just pay to play it, I suppose they can do what they like. I just wish they'd put more thought into the way they implement things - not having a go at CoX here because it's one of the best for this sort of thing but the anti-exploit code on some games is intrusive to a ridiculous degree. I'd hate to see lots of that sort of thing appearing here here.
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After 11 pages, I still don't understand your point. Are you trying to put a moral disincentive on the devs new policy?
[/ QUOTE ]
You need to realize that you can not convince a person like that. He KNOWS what is the CORRECT view. As a matter of fact he KNOWS the TRUTH. It's that simple, it seems from reading his posts. "I know what the right thing is and there is only one right thing... which I knows". I for my sake wish there were a ignorefunction on this forum.
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There is.
Ok, new, updated definition, - anything I do isn't an exploit, honestly. Anything those other people I don't like do is an exploit, even if both things have exactly the same effects. 
Just kidding. (almost)
Hmm, exploits.
I can think of a few things that are not exploits: Hitting Raider Engineers and Operation Engineers before they get the chance to fire off FF Gen/Gun Turret.
Herding two Malta Hercules Titans together and then kiting their health down so that they 'transform' - not an exploit.
Confusing the Freedom Phalanx/Arachnos so that they hit each other a lot in the LRSF/STF is not an exploit.
Confusing the FF Gens so that they give your team a bonus is not, imo, an exploit.
***
Using the confuse bug to slip under the Hero drones in RV and then promptly nova'ing GG was an exploit - it was a malicious one too, imo.
Playing a mission (preferably a glowie-hunt/defeat all) in the outdoor Dreck map (other places are also viable but the Dreck map is pretty darned big and requires hardly any effort - those darned Crey lab elevators *shakes fist* 
, then quitting before the last glowie is clicked/mob is felled and resetting is an exploit.
Setting up maps with 42-42 RCOs, 40+ Family, Melee(no range)/Regen(Standard) mobs, [insert farmer's/powerleveller's choice of mob], going in with a small team of low level heroes and hitting things and watching as the bubbles fly is an exploit.
In a similar vein (but not the same thing), arcs like the Teen Phalanx are not, imo, an exploit. They have an auto-sk feature, yes. But the mobs are difficult and only extend the levels up to about 30, iirc. However, the more I think about it, the more that Dev's Choice arc seems to be a big, Dev-condoned exploit. Having said that the team I ran with in it didn't jump about 10-20 levels and the drops were okay, nothing spectacular. If we'd continued playing it (over and over and over) then it would have been, imo, an exploitative way of levelling. But we didn't.
***
To finish; my personal opinion, with regards to this game, is that an exploit is something one does knowing full well that it is not the intention that the game be played in this way. I will use a board game analogy - Monopoly! I use it because, to my mind, it is one of those games that has widely-ranging rules depending on who you play with, what colour socks people are wearing and if there's a j in the month.
Player one rolls the dice and moves their piece. They land on the dreaded income tax square and pay their money to the bank.
Player two rolls the dice and lands on Mayfair. They don't have enough money to buy it and so they decide to take a loan from the bank.
Player one watches Player two take 1,000 from the bank.
"Um, what are you doing?"
"I can't afford Mayfair so I'm borrowing money from the bank."
"You can't do that. That's not in the rules."
"But I want Mayfair."
"Yes, but you can't do it. It is not in the rules. If we both continued to take money from the bank whenever we felt like it, what's the point in trying to amass a Monopoly?"
Player Three pipes up, "When I play at home we auction off the propoerty if the person landing on it can't afford it."
And so on. I identify myself in Player One's camp, not because it is the 'right thing to do' but that I find myself polarised by this debate. I'd really rather be Player Three, reasonable, trying to keep the peace. But I'm not. I also see where Player Two is coming from - it is only a game, not real life.
The following is my own and only opinion.
. an exploit, to me, if using a bug (or even a badly designed feature) to do something that wasn't intended by the dev team.
The fact that - supposedly - everyone can do it, the fact that the dev team didn't react quickly, the fact that it may or not interfer with others gaming experience... are all irrelevant.
. I highly doubt any development team, on any MMOG will ever support anything that reduces the time to achieve the final level, especially if the game isn't focused on High-level/High-End content.
MMOGs are based on addiction, on the fact that players come and play again, sometimes repeteadly. The more time it takes to level, supposedly the longer subscriptions will run. This is simple economics.
. I highly doubt the MA was designed as a levelling tool. It was supposed to be a way to bring user-content to the game.
. I personally don't care how people choose to play the game ; if someone want to let his computer play the game for him while he's watching TV, fine by me.
. I don't care if people spamm Zonechat with MA business, RL news, cybersex, life of his pets or whatever. Zonechat is the first thing I hide when creating a char.
. I don't care receiving stupid tells about powerlevelling, bridging, filling although my search comment is precisely stating I'm not interested. Ignorelist is my friend.
. I do care, though, when trying to complete some TaskForce and having to rely on unknown players to complete the team, I do care if those guys don't know their powers or even the basics. People usually think about the tanker who doesn't know Taunt, my usual issue is with range attackers who has not a clue of what can be "Line of Sight". And yes, it DOES lower my gaming experience, when that happens in ITF or STF.
. I do care when WW prices rise to a ridiculous summit.
. I think there is a degree beyond which using games features become exploiting. This is all personal judgement (even if the Dev team will have the final word, luckily). For me,
+ playing a 8 men Fire/Kin controllers isn't an exploit, though it's cheap
+ designing a MA faction for that kind of team so as to maximize efficiency and filling a map with it is even cheaper though still not really an exploit.
+ finding a minion that delivers lieutnant experience and filling a map with those IS an exploit).
+ finding a way to stack buffs or debuffs that aren't supposed to stack for players IS an exploit.
+ confusing an exploding Vahzilok is hilarious 
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+ finding a minion that delivers lieutnant experience and filling a map with those IS an exploit).
[/ QUOTE ]
They deliver that because if they aren't hit in time they summon a portal (which gives no reward) which then summons a bunch of reinforcements (which also give no reward) hence them getting their exp buffed, because frankly on something with out a good AoE output their risk is much higher than a minion.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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+ confusing an exploding Vahzilok is hilarious
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QFT!
Also I forgot to mention Sappers being confused too. And, for that matter, any minion/lt/boss/EB/AV that has mez powers of some sort. Obviously EBs and AVs can take a wee bit longer plus they are likely to 'kill steal' as it were.
Funnily enough about 30 minutes after the I14 patchnotes went up I made a point about clarification of terms.
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Nice to see that the code of conduct section got in there for MA...
Since you reserve the right to ban anything at anytime and for any reason, I guess there's no point asking for clarification of the terms 'parodies and derivative works' and 'unintended statistical advantages'.
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It was obvious that these terms wouldn't be strictly defined to us (due to people skirting to the limits whenever limits are known) but that they would most likely cause some weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth if and when the devs had to stamp down on people going too far.
IMO an 'exploit' will probably be judged an exploit due to the 'unintended statistical advantages' that can be achieved.
The devs will have their stats of xp/INF/reward rates and character progressions from before MA. They'll know (or be able to find out) what the reward/progression rate was per mission/hour/level/whatever before MA. They'll no doubt be able to see what the distributions were - so they'll see what the 'average' players acheived and what the uber-efficient farmers achieved before MA.
They'll have similar figures for post-MA. And they should be able to establish what the rewards are for MA only missions.
Exactly where they draw the line from this data I don't know - but I'm guessing that looking at pre- and post-I14 will be how they establish a limit.
Surely no-one could argue that earning rewards at twice the rate that the uber-efficient-I13-farmer could achieve is statistically advantageous? And if it is and the devs didn't intend that level of gain, then it is an exploit.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
Sorry for following the derail, Sing...
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Thanks Fury. Everyone who has posted a definition so far has agreed with me in saying, the definition of an 'exploit' MUST include the premise of said exploit giving 'an unfair advantage over other players'
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A definition of an exploit does not need to include 'an unfair advantage', merely an advantage that was unintended by the devs.
The phrase 'unfair advantage over other players' would suggest to me that not all characters/players could use the exploit, so it is unfair to those that cannot (note: cannot, not 'do not' or 'choose not to'). All characters/players can use the same methods in MA to gain rewards at the inflated rate unintended by the devs - so it is 'fair' but it is still an unintended advantage and an exploit.
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Now that the majority of intellectual posters agree with me on what an exploit is, and we're done arguing if farming is an exploit (because by this reasoning it isn't)
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Nicely shimmying up to an ad hominem there. Are the posters who disagree with you, myself included, merely in the minority of intellectual posters or are we more akin to sub-intelligent pond scum?
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
[ QUOTE ]
And if it is and the devs didn't intend that level of gain, then it is an exploit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes and no. Because if the devs launched this knowing the issues, not highlighting the issues and not dealing with the issues, then it actually can't be an exploit.
If you ask me how ludicrous it is to launch something like MA, knowing it's going to be abused because it's laid out in such a way as to actually encourage it, without safeguards, and then respond with draconian measures that can be enforced retrospectively.. that's another story.
They really have made their own bed and this ain't good at all.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
I do think too many people are doing the oh this is to do with computers therefore equating an exploit to be mean a bug.
Where i do believe that Positron was having exploit to mean an exploit. Yes comms officers give high xp it was to prevent people from initially farming portals, you tend not to come across maps that only have comms officers so they present a high difficulty so high reward. There is no point removing the reward as some MA maps will have rikti spawning as the do outside the MA.
The, "The game lets me do it so it cant be wrong" is not an excuse. It is similar to the "I was only following orders" excuse. Cause basically its wrong, you know the game is not designed to be played that way it may be the way you want it to be played but not the way it was designed.
Its an MMO its a grind to level cap and repeat, fill up all your slots and leave to the next MMO if you enjoy it you stick around if you don't you leave. The dev's are there to make the grind as long as possible but also enjoyable. its not in their financial interest for you to be able to fill up all your slots in a month with lvl 50s. If something is available to do this its an exploit pure and simple.
Just a quick note.
I think people tend to forget that people posting on the boards aren't representative of the playerbase.
The fact you post on those boards doesn't promote you in any way, it just mean you have more free time for that.
The vast majority don't even read the boards, don't yell or cry "DOOM" on every patch, don't spend their time trying to find any weakness in the game...
the vast majority just play and enjoy the game how it is.
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The, "The game lets me do it so it cant be wrong" is not an excuse. It is similar to the "I was only following orders" excuse.
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Well, they're really not the same thing at all are they?
As in law if something isn't forbidden, then it's legal if not necessarily desirable and ethical. And this is a game.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't like this any more than the next guy (I rarely farmed in 5 years of game play) but the way MAs laid out directly lends it self to just that.
It really isn't enough for a DEV to say,please don't do that. Which, by the way, they havent done till now, even though they knew these exploits were going to happen.
Asking teenagers to abide by the "spirit" of the game and be good boys (girls) is plain niave. Not to mention that , with all the debt cuts and XP curves in place and inventions costing millions each, it seems to me that the devs themselves have created this culture.
Exploiting something is not necessarily an exploit.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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And if it is and the devs didn't intend that level of gain, then it is an exploit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, yes and no. Because if the devs launched this knowing the issues, not highlighting the issues and not dealing with the issues, then it actually can't be an exploit.
If you ask me how ludicrous it is to launch something like MA, knowing it's going to be abused because it's laid out in such a way as to actually encourage it, without safeguards, and then respond with draconian measures that can be enforced retrospectively.. that's another story.
They really have made their own bed and this ain't good at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, about that "they weren't highlighting" bit, - no one with any sanity left does that ever, especially if they know they can't get to fixing it in a while. "Highlighting" anything of this nature, then saying "we'll fix it next month" (and adding there won't be rollback, as many wish) is exactly the opposite of what everyone does.
In the non-gaming world, security researches use public notices as a last resort, not as a routine practice. In this game devs have explicit policy to hide anything exploit-related from the official info until after it's fixed. What everyone learned about all the farming exploits(*) anyway is argument to tighten that policy in the future, not for the opposite. Of course, such a secrecy won't hold forever, but it's the only reasonable way to deal with things like that in the short term.
That said, I'm still a bit surprised they did release MA with no way ro rapidly respond do situations like that, and/or some sort of global mechanics to nerf any such exploits in advance. But just a bit surprised. /Tells all the now-boring Soviet jokes about anniversary deadlines... /
And no one can honestly say they didn't know dev team was anti-farm. (**) They mentioned it repeatedly in pre-release materials, they banned farm-related terms, they did some exploit(*)-fixing (Snake eggs, vamp chambers, Prisoners) both in beta and live long before that. Plenty of statement for me. I still farmed a little, more out of curiosity, than genuine need for XP or inf, but I didn't make any 50s or billions of inf by it. Just 6 levels 20-something levels, a bit of debt clearing and low mils.
(*) Exploit here means "whatever the devs call an exploit."
(**) They can cay they didn't expect threat of retroactive bans, I didn't for one. But I knew they will do SOMETHING and something harsh about it sooner or later.
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As far as I'm concerned, I don't like this any more than the next guy (I rarely farmed in 5 years of game play) but the way MAs laid out directly lends it self to just that.
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Yes, it does.
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It really isn't enough for a DEV to say,please don't do that.
[/ QUOTE ]
If the developers of the game can't define what is and is not acceptable behaviour/practice in the game, who can?
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Which, by the way, they havent done till now, even though they knew these exploits were going to happen.
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Very true.
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Asking teenagers to abide by the "spirit" of the game and be good boys (girls) is plain niave. Not to mention that , with all the debt cuts and XP curves in place and inventions costing millions each, it seems to me that the devs themselves have created this culture.
[/ QUOTE ]
To a certain extent, yes. On the other hand, one of the keys to the MMO experience as a whole is a sense of achievement. I struggle to comprehend anyone actually valuing something that they have not had to work for... so anyone being hit by the sanctions that the developers have decided to impose is not losing something that could even remotely be called "a labour of love" or "something I put a lot of effort into". We could debate (fruitlessly) the impact of the chosen action, but at the end of the day, it boils down to this: Until someone gets banned as a result of this, there is no moral high horse to climb up onto in outrage at the developers' actions... because they simply haven't taken any, yet. They've told us the line, now. If it is broken, now, then the person doing the breaking only has themselves to blame for the consequences, and, IMO, since they cannot value something gained without effort, then losing it should cause them no pain.
It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is, and try to play fairly and equitably. The developers make the rules, we don't. But until the devlopers actually do come the heavy (which, I'll admit, they have said they may in extreme cases - not even a guarantee!), is there any point moaning that they have made their position on the matter clear?
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Exploiting something is not necessarily an exploit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Correct. However, in the context of an MMO... the developers get to define what is and is not an exploit.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Dark Cheetah's point is a very good one,in reality I think only a minority of the playerbase bothers with the forums. I'll try to illustrate this with what happened when I logged into the game after reading Posi's post.
On Union villains, through Bugsy Mac Moo's sterling efforts, I'm the member of a very busy friendly VG, The 7 Sins, when I asked what people thought of Positron's comments none of the nearly 20 people online in the VG had heard of them, simply put I'm the only person who actually bothers to read the forums.
The introduction of CoH to Steam seems to have brought an influx of new players, who were enjoying the friendly atmosphere and who inevitably were using(abusing) the MA.If these new players dont bother with the forum how are they going to learn what they're doing is wrong as far as the devs are concerned, the first they might know about it is when they can't log into their characters.
On this basis I feel it is imperative that the Devs lay out a clearer description of what they intend to do and that it is put where players will see it.
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Well, about that "they weren't highlighting" bit, - no one with any sanity left does that ever, especially if they know they can't get to fixing it in a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. But I can raise you on that one by saying that no one with any sense would knowingly put something live that is going to be this game breaking without having a fix in place.
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That said, I'm still a bit surprised they did release MA with no way ro rapidly respond do situations like that, and/or some sort of global mechanics to nerf any such exploits in advance. But just a bit surprised.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not surprised at all. But what I'm saying is its a bit rich if they put something like this out then moan when players are doing what comes naturily. Very rich in fact.
there is only one answer to this.
They should have fixed the issue before release. Now they've opened a door up to ban otherwise good natured players for playing something the devs are totally culable for. They gave us this system.
Imagine there was a patch and after your patch your alt developed EB powers. And the devs did nothing about it. Would you play him? Most people would, I think, and enjoy it. I remember being on ultima on line and they introduced a new beetle pet. This beetle turned out to be way more powerful than intended. Think that stopped us using it? Course not. The sun shone, we made hay and the devs fixed it.
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And no one can honestly say they didn't know dev team was anti-farm. (**) They mentioned it repeatedly in pre-release materials, they banned farm-related terms, they did some exploit(*)-fixing (Snake eggs, vamp chambers, Prisoners) both in beta and live long before that. Plenty of statement for me. I still farmed a little, more out of curiosity, than genuine need for XP or inf, but I didn't make any 50s or billions of inf by it. Just 6 levels 20-something levels, a bit of debt clearing and low mils.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're making excuses for them here.
it's actions not words that count. And their actions led to this farming vculture in the first place. And apart from isolated things they havent done anything to stop it.
it's for them to create gameplay that discourages it and they haven't. For example the 10-20 grind is a big reason people PL. Have they done anything about it? Improve stamina a bit so at least you can fight without resting every 2 minions?
Farming was a minority sport on this game once.
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(*) Exploit here means "whatever the devs call an exploit."
(**) They can cay they didn't expect threat of retroactive bans, I didn't for one. But I knew they will do SOMETHING and something harsh about it sooner or later.
[/ QUOTE ]
What can I say? Facetiously I say it's easier (and more stupid) to threaten players than to prevent the problem in the first place or fix it as fast as you can.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
Just a quick note.
I think people tend to forget that people posting on the boards aren't representative of the playerbase.
The fact you post on those boards doesn't promote you in any way, it just mean you have more free time for that.
The vast majority don't even read the boards, don't yell or cry "DOOM" on every patch, don't spend their time trying to find any weakness in the game...
the vast majority just play and enjoy the game how it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep very true. I played the original EverQuest when it launched, with a group of real life friends and acquaintances that grew to about a dozen of us, and I was the only one who read the Dev tracker and looked at the news on the official website - then we all joined a guild which at its high point had around 50 members, and there were only a few of us that even bothered to read patch notes.
I doubt things are that different in other MMOs, including this one.
And if I hadn't been signed off work ill lately I'd just be an occasional lurker here myself, who read Dev tracker every day or two, but only perhaps browsed general discussion and the popular culture sections (and maybe bases and now MA forum) once or twice a week. That has been my usual state of being since I've been a player here.
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[ QUOTE ]
Well, about that "they weren't highlighting" bit, - no one with any sanity left does that ever, especially if they know they can't get to fixing it in a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. But I can raise you on that one by saying that no one with any sense would knowingly put something live that is going to be this game breaking without having a fix in place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just imagine, - they delay I14 launch till, say two weeks ago, they don't tell why, rumor mill starts. Then, after that delay, the thing is exploited anyway, maybe not as epically, but still it would be. You can't find exploits without exploiters, and open beta is of only so much help anyway.
Oh, sure, you personally might not care about MA, even if it's used as intended, or even might wish it never existed. But many do care. Frankly, MA and what it could mean are major reasons why I didn't cancel the sub this winter. Press would react negatively to uunexplained delay too, I suppose, and even more so to delay explained by MA security issues. And with CO around the corner some producer, or even Posi himself, might have gotten nervous enough to force the launch no matter what, figuring that they can keep farmability hush-hush long enough. They failed to do that, sure, but I imagine it wasn't at all clear it would surely fail back then.
Or in other words, you're offered 2 choices: guaranteed loss of, say £8 000 or a gamble, - 1/10 chance to WIN £10 000 and 9/10 to lose the same £10 000 (most of which you're going to lose anyway)? Apply this to delayed launch vs doing what devs did.
I seriously thought about it, from the point of view that (1) things couldn't be done much faster than they were (Yes, dev team's resurces are formidable, but they're not unlimited. You don't fix bugs by wishing them go away.), (2) Devs aren't babbling idiots. NOTHING they could do under those assumptions was much better than the current situation, with anniversary deadline, competition and half a year delay there already. They could make it _somewhat_ better, maybe, but not much.
Even retroactive ban threat is quite reasonable. (Still not something anyone, including me, likes. I honestly, honestly want they would avoid that.) Imagine forum being filled with "WTH i was baned, but my m8 wasn't cuz he stopped farming day earlier?" cries and "Why indeed? Farming is farming, whenever you did it and I HATE FARMERS,ban'em, ban'em ALL!" zealotry. I don't say I like retrobans, I say that, again, it was lesser of many evils. (Assuming, that like me, you think MA farms were game-breaking.) Most (not everyone) of those who seriously would quit over farmer bans are either in "and good riddance" category or would quit no matter what.
[ QUOTE ]
I remember being on ultima on line and they introduced a new beetle pet. This beetle turned out to be way more powerful than intended. Think that stopped us using it?
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Well, please, I'm not exactly fan of oldschool UO, B0n3DeWd, precasting and all. It was one big exploit from the beginning, and the less MMO is like that UO the more it's successful it appears. (I don't know how UO evolved post-Trammel, TBH, but you've got my point, - "UO does it that way" isn't terribly good way to persuade me.)
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I think you're making excuses for them here.
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No, I just don't assume they're subspecies of fairy with unlimited cash on hand.
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it's actions not words that count. And their actions led to this farming
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Again, my list is pretty much all action. They fixed this, removed that, banned arcs, in other words they were doing things. All rather visibly, especially to the users of those things that were fixed or removed.
Again, stupid real world analogy. I have cheap cardboard door in my flat (not really, but NVM) Someone accidentally breaks it. I, being the poor guy with a broken cheap door can't replace it until the next week, and put a paper, saying "door" in its stead for a while. Would it be OK for you to use my flat for your party? You meticulously steal nothing, you just party there because my actions might be an indication I don't mind strangers in my flat. you are even so nice you pay me a little. Would this behaviour be OK?
I get the impression you have an agenda.
To me, Positron's statement reveals which particular side of the "story vs farming" fence the devs are on. To suggest that they should be on the fence instead is to ignore the fact that they employ people at their company to write stories, and balance the game so that players experience content in a (pre-MA) delicate manner.
Nowhere is it stated that the devs should sit on the fence because they need to appeal to as many people as possible. The facts are that they can and will do whatever they want to make the game playable in whichever manner they prefer, be that farming or storywise. Nitpicking over which particular piece of the EULA allows them to do this, be it exploit solving or something else, doesn't matter.
Please fight My Brute: http://2hero.mybrute.com
Mission Architect 54161 - Michael Mundano, Megan Malloney and the Secret Senate.
Mission Architect 91838 - Constantinople Jones' Family Secret. A One Mission Story arc.