If the devs come out (Like they have) and say "We didn't want or expect you to do this" then it's an exploit.
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like powerlevelling, just shut up and don't do it. Powerlevelling is NOT an exploit, due to the fact it GIVES NO ADVANTAGE (as relevant to artic's 2nd and 3rd definitions) over other players.
Powerlevelling gives no advantage over other players for the people who partake in it, it does not negatively affect their gameplay, it does not degrade the quality of gaming experience or the ingame economy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, first things first mister: I really don't want to have to go into the definition of 'forum' or 'debate' with you.
Secondly, please re-read what you have posted.
Why? I obviously have no trouble understanding the truth. And i'm not forcing you to do anything, if you don't want to contribute to disscussion, don't.
Here i go again:
@fanservice, just because the devs say they didn't intend you to do it, does not constitute an exploit. An exploit is avulnerability in game mechanics or code that gives players an advantage over other players that negatively impacts their gameplay. Levelling does not do this.
@Delph, it doesn't matter if powerlevelling was intended, it has rooted it's place in city of villains as it has in every MMO. And once you're level 50, obviously you choose all your powers, no one remains with level 1 builds.
@kindheller, "it gives people an advantage because it shouldn't be like this' is a circular argument and you have not justified at all your claim that farming gives players an unfair advantage.
And no, my 'facts' are not assumption, that contradicts the very definition of the word. Are you trying to posit the devs DIDN'T foresee people would farm with this system? In that case, i have something else to be worried over. try again.
[ QUOTE ]
An exploit is whatever they deem it to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why we must all tremble in fear 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
PLEASE PEOPLE, and Razor in particular:
Don't argue with each other on this thread.
Just tell us how you define an exploit and give us two borderline examples, one that you consider being an exploit, and one that's pretty close but you don't consider it one.
If you don't agree with someone, PM them, start a new thread, whatever, but DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT here.
Let's just leave the MA and the com officers to history, just forget it ever happened even if it highlighted several problems. PLEASE, pretty please!
For once I whish the forum really was moderated!
Did you not read my post on the 2nd page?
This isn't a matter of opinion; the ONLY thing that is a matter of opinion here is the other's wrong definition of exploit.
Posters in this thread have offered WEAK explanations, claiming farming is an 'exploit' on the basis it wasn't intended.
Post-hoc flaws like this (claiming because one thing happens, another thing was caused by it or vice versa) do not prove a point to be true.
The point is, this thread is riddled with weak arguments that have very flawed reasoning, and people goading or mocking me, being sarcastic or rhetorical are not going to deter me from asserting the truth.
Yes, everyone may define exploit differently, i don't care what your definition is, as long as you JUSTIFY your definition, so everyone can assess the reasoning behind it.
[ QUOTE ]
PLEASE PEOPLE, and Razor in particular:
Don't argue with each other on this thread.
Just tell us how you define an exploit and give us two borderline examples, one that you consider being an exploit, and one that's pretty close but you don't consider it one.
If you don't agree with someone, PM them, start a new thread, whatever, but DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT here.
Let's just leave the MA and the com officers to history, just forget it ever happened even if it highlighted several problems. PLEASE, pretty please!
For once I whish the forum really was moderated!
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you suggesting they're exploiting the lack of modding right now?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Razor: That's the point here. THEY ARE ENTITLED to their opinion and that's why I started this thread: I wanna know their opinion no matter how much I disagree.
You may also disagree so much it's eating you up, but take it out on them somewhere else, PLEASE! You've had your chance to post you're definition, now shut up and let everyone else give their side without you jumping on them. If they disturb you so much, don't continue reading this thread. PLEASE!
And GG, ty for respecting my whish, not posting those oneliners for so long, must've been hard. Now go away again, please! 
[ QUOTE ]
Or are you neglecting to mention the fact that the reason people could get to 50 in 3 days was due to a bug with xp rewards with a particular NPC?
Your "facts"? arn't facts at all. They are pure assumption, simply because you do not know what PS knew before. Or that they knew how the public (not just those who decided to pop onto test to get a bash at the new issue) would react and ultimately abuse the system.
. without putting it live you'll never get the same results. and often it just takes time for something like a bug with rewards to be worked out... In that respect releasing it early was a good decision. (That said they had the reaction timing of a tortoise with arthritis).
It might not have been found there and then in the testing stage but it was noted later in live and has been fixed. Farm all you want now.. tell me if you find another good mob to farm until then its hilarious watching those noob farmers die from inability to rely on the good old Rikti.
This is my last post on farming and anything related to that side of MA because I'm tired of it (: 
[/ QUOTE ]
Sry but you are incredible wrong......
Of course RCO gave Lt. xp while they got minion health
BUT
The devs coded them to be that way so its NOT an exploit.
Even without RCO you can farm and pl exactly as fast with just Lts. on the map, so dont pretend the powerlvling was because of a bug.
In your definition the whole MA and the amount of rescues and destroy objects in a mission is a bug, since powerlvling and farming had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the RCO giving Lts. xp.
I could tell you 20 mobs, not counting custom mobs, which are as easy to farm if not easier and give the same xp/inf.
So pls before you post something like that make sure you know what you are talking about.
IMO an expxloit is using a bug or error in the code, bots or hacks to manipulate a game.
[ QUOTE ]
the ONLY thing that is a matter of opinion here is the what the devs consider an exploit
[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed - for in-game truth 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
CAN WE PLEASE DROP THAT DISCUSSION NOW!
Read the friggin' original post!
Nope, they couldn't anyway, because moderators or not, i'm always here to pick apart people's arguments if the reasoning behind them is weak and flawed.
If people posit claims and justify them, using REASONABLE assumptions, not wild and unsubstantiated claims, of course i will listen.
I'm not saying people need to be a genius to converse with me; anyone can contribute, but just asserting their opinons as facts, or stating circular arguments (e.g, this is wrong because it just is) is NOT going to convince me of anything.
If someone makes a post with conclusive evidence that is representative of what is likely to happen if farming continues, if those consequences were found to be bad, and someone could prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that farming is bad, of course i will be converted.
But until that happens, i'm going to argue that farming can be an effective process that can contribute actively to the economy of a game, and is not detrimental to anyone's gaming experience on the basis it in NO way affects anyone negatively.
[ QUOTE ]
i'm going to argue that farming can be an effective process that can contribute actively to the economy of a game, and is not detrimental to anyone's gaming experience on the basis it in NO way affects anyone negatively.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem there is that the devs view it a little differently, I think
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
[ QUOTE ]
Nope, they couldn't anyway, because moderators or not, i'm always here to pick apart people's arguments
[/ QUOTE ] ...with the weight of your own opinion on your side fo the scale and their facts on the other. Hmm.. who could be right, I wonder?
Please fight My Brute: http://2hero.mybrute.com
Mission Architect 54161 - Michael Mundano, Megan Malloney and the Secret Senate.
Mission Architect 91838 - Constantinople Jones' Family Secret. A One Mission Story arc.
I would personally like to thank especially Golden Girl and Razor for ruining another thread that started very well. TY for once again ruining something for the rest of us.
At this moment, I hope Avatea deletes this thread even though it has some really good posts. You ppl just can't stop yourselves can you? Yes, this is personal and I'm prolly getting slapped for it, but for crying out loud...
[ QUOTE ]
If someone makes a post with conclusive evidence that is representative of what is likely to happen if farming continues, if those consequences were found to be bad, and someone could prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that farming is bad, of course i will be converted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Farming is bad because the devs say it's bad.
Farming is an exploit because the devs say it's an exploit.
If farming continues, the devs will ban people. Which they don't want to do, as it loses them money (which is bad to them, not us). So instead, they have to remove the farming.
You won't win. You won't argue your point any better. You're shouting at a wall.
@Crius
Bassai, Canadian Kid, Alruna, Kahi
Mistress Rad, Culpeo, Ms. Demeanor, Celsius
If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. Let's go to work.
@SingStar, the day having an intellectual argument with other users, some who have argued strong points, others not so strong, becomes ruining an argument, is the day freedom of speech dies.
And @Crius, i know i won't 'win' ultimately. Being correct (which i am) is enough.
[ QUOTE ]
I would personally like to thank especially Golden Girl and Razor for ruining another thread that started very well. TY for once again ruining something for the rest of us.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's "General Discussion" - not "General Polling" - people will give their opinions, and then respond to other peoples opinions.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Thanks goldengirl, although most of your replies have been brief, they have definately contributed to the direction of the topic.
The bottom line IS the devs make the rules. But that doesn't mean to say their philosopy of what makes a balanced game is right.
Don't forget, the devs are developing this game to please THE PLAYERS.
What game was ever developed with the developers in mind? None. Developers make games with players in mind, and should ALWAYS do what will benefit the majority of players.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks goldengirl, although most of your replies have been brief, they have definately contributed to the direction of the topic.
The bottom line IS the devs make the rules. But that doesn't mean to say their philosopy of what makes a balanced game is right.
Don't forget, the devs are developing this game to please THE PLAYERS.
What game was ever developed with the developers in mind? None. Developers make games with players in mind, and should ALWAYS do what will benefit the majority of players.
[/ QUOTE ]
But according to Positron, the majority are against the excessive MA farming - although, I'm not sure how scientific that is - he may just be going by what we told him at the anniversary event
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Razer, you still just don't get it.
I ONLY wanted to hear what people thought. This was not a forum for debate, but you didn't care, you descided to crash the party, and now the thread IS ruined!
You're "argumenting" with people could've been done on all the other threads discussion similar matters, you could've started your own thread.
I wanted a clean cut thread where people could, without agreeing or disagreeing with anyone:
1. Tell us what they think is THEIR PERSONAL definition of exploit
2. Give an example of what they consider to be an exploit
3. give an example of what might come close to that, but in their mind still isn't an exploit.
A clean-cut list of what people think would have been very interesting, and I very specifically asked people NOT to argue with each other on this thread, but you and some other ppl chose to disrespect that and also to disrespect other peoples OPINION. I'm trying very hard not to get too personal, but basically - while I agree with you on your critisism on other peoples definition - you showed why it's so totally pointless to actually try using this forum for anything good, why it's totally pointless to start threads, and why it's totally pointless trying to be "part of the community" and why this game is having such a hard time attracting new people.
Being a social science teacher, I encourage discussions and arguments, but there's a time and place for everything. I asked you to PM people if you wanted to discuss with them, I even PMd you about it but yet again and again you chose to be ignorant.
You could argue with them via PM, you could argue with them on new threads, but nope. I was REALLY interested in hearing peoples opinions, because thats the FIRST IMPORTANT thing, letting people say what they think, THEN you can argue, but the thread is already ruined.
Thanks a lot.
I think the 'majority' are people who are against the 'MA FARM PLOX' spamming, positron has never stated if the aforementioned 'majority' were opposed to farming itself.
Being opposed to farming BECAUSE it causes something that that they personally don't like and may NOT actually be the case with the significant majority, is a weak reason to oppose farming.
I think your curiosity is valid Singstar, but I simply await a description by the devs' to be honest. Briefly I think if for example Rikti comm officers is exploitative, then all farming is exploitative which is royally screwed and incredibly hypocritical, i.e pinning the fault on us when it theirs truly. Again, regards my opinion.
I really think they're vagueness is impeccable at times.
Fury
The simple definition of an exploit in this context is "utilising an in-game effect or bug that gives someone an advantage over other people".
At the end of the day, the developers get to decide what constitutes that.
In general terms, though, exploits include the following:
Bugged code that allows characters to do things that weren't intended (the Arena Confuse bug)
Code that unscrupulous individuals can use to commit virtual theft (Coalition Salvage theft)
Utilisation of a feature's weaknesses to exceed normal advancement rates (MA RCO farming)
Not wanting to drag it onto the topic that shall not be discussed, but the theory goes like this:
Team A are an efficient, well-oiled mishing machine. They spend their time doing normal missions. They do them well, they do them fast, and they earn rewards at a steady rate, which I will call X.
Team B are an average PuG. They don't act well together, often interfere with each other, but have discovered a mission that is so insanely easy and simple to farm with that they stick to it like glue, and earn rewards (XP/Inf/Prestige/Drops) at a rate Y.
IF Y > X THEN Team B are exploiting a weakness.
IF Y [u]<[u] X THEN no problem exists
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
1-50 in a single digit no of hours is not an intended, nor (I used to think) desired part of the game. If it was intended it would have been a feature from the beginning. Sure you could lackey up but you're still a vastly underpowered lowbie with 2 attacks and a lot of hitpoints.
Curse you Scarlet for bringing reason into this....you should know it's not welcome here...:P
I don't wanna save my soul now,
I just wanna lose control,
And even if it takes a lifetime, to learn:
I'll learn!