Confusion about the Council and Column
By
bluedarky,
Posted on: 2009-04-12 09:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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(who are the 5th Vampires loyal to?
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Reichsman and the original ideals of The Fifth I suppose. Refusing to join Nosferatu... Fangs ain't what they used to be for them. 
Reichsman is the leader of the Axis Amerika Korps, not the 5th so I doubt they would be loyal to him.
Yea I would say that's pretty much right. Though it doesen't matter if it's a bit wrong as there are so many sub plots and double crossings going on between the groups it's hard to tell whats happening most of the time.
I'm guessing the Vampires are much like the normal troops. Loyal to whoever is in charge of them as they are pretty much said troops put through the mutagenic ringer.
It's not running away. It's advancing in reverse!
Aye, as InZane said Reichsman is Marcus Cole from Axis Earth, now to do with the 5th, and not to be confused with 5th Column/Council Empire Earth.
So how to the Warwolves fit in? 
Thelonious Monk
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So how to the Warwolves fit in?
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IIRC, they're failed Nictus experiments. I think I read that in a very good guide to Kheldians a while back. I think that they're led by Requiem. I could of course be remembering incorrectly as I don't have the guide to hand.
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Nosferatu - First 5th member to switch to Council, probably not interested in going back. Curious about becoming a Nictus.
His loyalties lie first with the Centre, then with the Nictus, then with the 5th Column.
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I would say his primary loyalties are to himself and mad science.
So long as someone provides the resourses for his experiments he doesn't really care.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Reichsman is the leader of the Axis Amerika Korps, not the 5th so I doubt they would be loyal to him.
oh yes and Recluse demands that Arachnos be loyal to him.
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Reichsman was the leader of the 5th Column when it fragmented.
Axis America is from an alternate Earth so the leaders in that are alternative versions of their counterparts. Some have taken different paths - others have progressed and their groups may have evolved.
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Richsman was not with the (Paragon Earth) 5th.
He is the Axis America counterpart of Statesman, the backstory is very clear about that.
Read about it here.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Reichsman is the leader of the Axis Amerika Korps, not the 5th so I doubt they would be loyal to him.
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Reichsman was the leader of the 5th Column when it fragmented.
Axis America is from an alternate Earth so the leaders in that are alternative versions of their counterparts. Some have taken different paths - others have progressed and their groups may have evolved.
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The Axis America universe is presumably a world where the Fifth Column invasion repelled by Atlas in 1941 was successful - they're what the Fifth Column would eventually evolve into. The Reichsman is definitely an alternative version of Statesman, not any of the 'Primary' CoX universe Fifth Column or Council leadership.
Actually, I assume that the whole Fifth Column was originally intended to be an American fascist movement that was attempting to seize power, rather than some sort of German invasion - the name, at least, would make some sort of sense then.
The more that they attempt to fix it, the less sense it makes! What exactly is the Council Empire? How comes the Fifth Column are now Italian*, who were by far the least enthusiastic and least well equipped Axis Power**?
*Frankly, I'm hoping that the new Fifth will come equipped with comedy accents...
**Those vampires and werewolves aren't exactly Italian, either - Axis Powers Hungary and Romania would both fit an awful lot better...
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**Those vampires and werewolves aren't exactly Italian
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Italian Vampires? Maybe not.
Italian Werewolves? Not sure... I've seen some pretty darn hirsute waiters in pizzerias...
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The more that they attempt to fix it, the less sense it makes! What exactly is the Council Empire? How comes the Fifth Column are now Italian*, who were by far the least enthusiastic and least well equipped Axis Power**?
*Frankly, I'm hoping that the new Fifth will come equipped with comedy accents...
**Those vampires and werewolves aren't exactly Italian, either - Axis Powers Hungary and Romania would both fit an awful lot better...
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You could angle the Italian thing because Fascism is Italian in origin, and the Nazis (German National Socialist) were an example of generic fascism? Still, they whimped out from openly calling the 5th evil Nazi badguys when the game got released in Europe - back on US servers before euro release they had no issues calling them German and instructing players to beat-up the naughty fascists!
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Richsman was not with the (Paragon Earth) 5th.
He is the Axis America counterpart of Statesman, the backstory is very clear about that.
Read about it here.
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I think we'll get to see him when Boomtown is revamped
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Doing the fall of the fifth column ouro arc will answer a lot of your questions.
The Fifth column were an Italian Fascist group that fragmented during WWII I believe.
The Rocket launching floating robots, the Vampyres and the standard troops are mostly Fifth column. The Warwolves are failed nictus experiments that started out with 'The Path of the Dark' which is touched upon during the imperious TF with the first nictus impregnation. (Sounds kinky I know!)
The Fifth/Council vampyres came about as a result of nosferatu's expermientation into creating a super soldier with enhanced night vision and enhanced strength and I guess the ability to drain life etc.
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@Miss Chief
On the subject of Reichsman its likely he developed similar ideals to our (CoH main universe) recluse but instead of subverting archnos he joined up with the Axis powers.
As to the 5th remember that tho the world of CoH shares some of the real worlds events its pretty divergent its possible the italians were far more powerful especially if they were secretly backed by the nictus also the actual 5th seem to be more like a sub group to the Axis powers something like the SS maybe, they were/are lead by Requiem
the vampires are result of Nosferatu development of super soldiers and aren't in fact true vampires
the werewolves are something else there's suggestion that there the result of some kind of experiment but its yet to be revealed what exactly creates them there numbers did increase dramatically tho once the 5th were absorbed into the council
The Axis America universe is one where the Nazis won WW2 with the help of their Axis bretheren. We've had no indication that the Column even existed in that universe.
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While exploring a world where America had lost to Nazi Germany, the team ran afoul of that parallel Earth's greatest hero: The Reichsman.
The Reichsman, an alternate version of our world's Statesman, led the Amerika Korps, an elite super powered hero organization that helped preserve Nazi rule over the former United States. Intrigued by these other-worldly interlopers, The Reichsman captured Dr. Webb and his explorers, tortured them to death, and ended up extracting a great deal of data about Webb's home dimension. Data is all well and good, but the Reichsman decided he wanted to see for himself, and so he led Amerika Korps through the portal and back to Paragon City.
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"During WWII the feared Nazi 5th Column forces conducted covert military operations within the borders of the U.S. itself."*
Whilst the rank-and-file of the 5th Column may well have been recruited from sympathetic American citizens, they were definitely originally a German led organisation. Certainly, the names of the various troops were German.
I had the impression that it was the Council which was Italian, working within the framework set up by the Germans. Which would make sense, with the Nictus hanging out in Italy...
*From the original Game Manual description of the 5th.
However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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Requiem - Double agent, active in both the Council and the 5th Column. Using both of them to further the Nictus' agenda.
His loyalties lie first with the Nictus, then with the 5th, then with the Centre.
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From what I can tell from Ouroboros, Requiem was actually the LEADER of the 5th Column. Bit hard to be a doublecrossing agent when you're the leader of said organisation. However, he is faithful to the Nictus, so who can say? Perhaps the 5th Column would have been his own personal army on a world filled with Nictus if he had his say.
All that went out of the window when the Center took over the 5th and absorbed it into the Council, so naturally, from his exploits in Cimerora, he's a bit peeved by that. He told his last remaining... well, an awful LOT of followers to hide themselves within the Council and wait for the day when the 5th would return, so he obviously still has strong ties with the 5th even if it doesn't technically exist anymore in present time.
As for Vandal, he's not a robot, he's a cyborg, which is a difference - he still has organic parts (presumably his brain, for one).
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Italian Werewolves? Not sure... I've seen some pretty darn hirsute waiters in pizzerias...
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Falls off chair laughing 
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However, he is faithful to the Nictus, so who can say?
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Don't really think so. Requiem's Nictus symbiote, Dirge of Entropy, appears to be something of a renegade itself.
Anyway, he seems to be working against Arkhan and her goal of total nictus domination in the keldian story arc.
I really should do something about this signature.
The entire game lore about 5th and Council is a big mess, mostly due to the way all 5th arcs were changed to ones with council.
It'll probably all either get retconned or explained by time-travel-related inconsistencies.
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The entire game lore about 5th and Council is a big mess, mostly due to the way all 5th arcs were changed to ones with council.
It'll probably all either get retconned or explained by time-travel-related inconsistencies.
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Isn't it already?
A wizard did it
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A wizard did it
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Actually, it was probably someone like Vernon von Grun or Doctor Aeon messing around with some sort of time travel related mad science accidentally erasing the Fifth Column from history. The Council are just hasty replacements based on What He Could Remember At The Moment (the best type or research, I've found).
Either that, or it's all a Nemesis Plot TM.
So I've been trying to write an MA arc about the Council and the 5th, and the internal politics of these two groups is... a bit hard to get straight sometimes. These are my impressions of the current situation... are they right?
WARNING - POST CONTAINS SPOILERS for many arcs, including Ouroboros, Kheldian and Cimeroran arcs!
Requiem - Double agent, active in both the Council and the 5th Column. Using both of them to further the Nictus' agenda.
His loyalties lie first with the Nictus, then with the 5th, then with the Centre.
Nosferatu - First 5th member to switch to Council, probably not interested in going back. Curious about becoming a Nictus.
His loyalties lie first with the Centre, then with the Nictus, then with the 5th Column.
Vandal - Double Agent, like Requiem. Probably doesn't care for Nictus, they probably can't take robots as hosts.
Loyalties lie first with the 5th Column, second with the Centre.
Maestro - Same as Vandal.
Burkholder - 'Loyal' to the Centre, for now, but I get the feeling he'd switch back to the 5th if he thought it was worth it. His dialogue makes him out to be an opportunistic weasel.
Arakhn - Nictus using the Council to further the Nictus agenda. Loyal to the Nictus first, then the Centre.
Generic Council troops - Are loyal to their commanders first, then the Centre. Most are unaware of what Nictus really are.
Generic 5th Column troops - Loyal to their commanders only. Probably hate all Council and Nictus.
So, did I get it right? There are a few minor holes (who are the 5th Vampires loyal to? They've split with Nosferatu) but I think that's right.
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