[ QUOTE ]
Not technically. It is fraud.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it isn't. We still operate a legal system of 'innocent until proven guilty'. A major software screwup that results in multiple charges to the customer which was in no way intended by the merchant, just plain isn't fraud.
You can call the actual problem that occurred and the resultant amount of time needed to properly fix it whatever you like, unfortunate, incompetant, amusing, irrelevant, devastating, chocolate, pig, plate, car, Mars....but it isn't fraud until they do it on purpose.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
You can be charged with Fraud even if you have no knowledge of the transaction going through. Ignorance of the action isn't actually any defence against it, legally.
I've got to do Fraud training every 3 months as part of my job. It's unfortunate when it's a software glitch, but if you acquire or transact money that isn't yours to transact with, it is fraud.
Edit:
Fraud Definition: [ QUOTE ]
In the broadest sense, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual
[/ QUOTE ]
Now, providing a payment system which inadvertently takes money without authorisation isn't what most of us (myself included) would class as intentional, but it can be said to damage another individual.
However, legally (and there are court cases going on right now covering this which may end up spewing out reams of legislation which require heavy system changes, thus my interest) it could be said that providing a system which takes money without authorisation is "Intentional" fraud, depending on what sides the courts end up looking at.
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
[ QUOTE ]
Mars
[/ QUOTE ]
Mmmmmmmmmmm...
Mars...
Finger licking good! ^_^
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
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with the website being a tad [censored] and all.
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Such as not recognizing that there's Maestro cards starting in 2009, meaning I can't get the booster pack nor can I update my sub at the end of the month.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say... With this, along with all the other payment problems... Not just the ones with this double/triple charging, but all the payment issues there have been in the last year or two.. NEVER, in all my time on the internet, have I EVER come across a company so... incompetent... when it comes to taking money from customers...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
FFM: I could name one, but they haven't cleared my redundancy cheque yet 
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
i don't know what the fuzz is, it's your own damn fault for not watching what you do.
that's what you get from rushing, no wonder i never have such problems.
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what the fuzz is, it's your own damn fault for not watching what you do.
that's what you get from rushing, no wonder i never have such problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice attitude to have, when NC themselves have admitted this all happened due to technical problems at their end.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
it's your own damn fault for not watching what you do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see what did we do? Clicked "Confirm Transaction" once (which you can only click once, because it becomes unclickable after that) and then were charged 2 or 3 times instead of once?
In what way can that be classed as the purchaser's fault?
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what the fuzz is, it's your own damn fault for not watching what you do.
that's what you get from rushing, no wonder i never have such problems.
[/ QUOTE ]
Dont be an idiot all your life.
Lots of people were affected by this, here and across the pond.
It was an error with the site/system and not people making mistakes, so think before your mouth goes into drivel mode.
Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.
Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966
As it happens, both me and Aardwark work/have worked with similar systems. Double charges should never ever happen, no matter what, why, and even if the whole darn country rushes to the store. Every bank I know goes extra mile and then some to prevent it, even disallowing otherwise perfectly legit transactions that MIGHT be doubles. (like any transaction with the same payer, receiver and sum on the same business day. Although the exact rule is different in different places.)
Bugs happen, alright, but this one is a major screwup, I mean someone-might-get-themselves-fired-on-the-same-day major not just "a problem."
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's your own damn fault for not watching what you do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see what did we do? Clicked "Confirm Transaction" once (which you can only click once, because it becomes unclickable after that) and then were charged 2 or 3 times instead of once?
In what way can that be classed as the purchaser's fault?
[/ QUOTE ]
And earlier was said people got the 'please try again' and did so, thus getting twice charged? 
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's your own damn fault for not watching what you do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see what did we do? Clicked "Confirm Transaction" once (which you can only click once, because it becomes unclickable after that) and then were charged 2 or 3 times instead of once?
In what way can that be classed as the purchaser's fault?
[/ QUOTE ]
And earlier was said people got the 'please try again' and did so, thus getting twice charged?
[/ QUOTE ]
Possibly (not having even tried it, so not had chance to get into problems) the button disables itself after one click, preventing a mad click-fest leading to multiple orders, then after a while thinking comes back saying "Failed, please try again".
If that happened to me I'd think the first attempt was a write-off, and in trying again I'd still be trying to place a first order, not a repeat one.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's your own damn fault for not watching what you do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's see what did we do? Clicked "Confirm Transaction" once (which you can only click once, because it becomes unclickable after that) and then were charged 2 or 3 times instead of once?
In what way can that be classed as the purchaser's fault?
[/ QUOTE ]
And earlier was said people got the 'please try again' and did so, thus getting twice charged?
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if a financial system tells you to try it again, there's an implicit statement that it hasn't already done it before.
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
see, thats the problem with digital stuff.
Stupid example: Candybar machine.
You trown in a euro (click the conformation button), you get a candy bar. So when u trow in the euro, machine makes some noice and it says: Error - please try again.
You gonna trow another euro in? Fine. You do again. Please try again.. you just trown in 3 euros without even knowning what it does.
lets say its a blank machine, where you have to put your hand in some bucket to grab your candybar. But you havent checked there yet right? (account -> apply code). Maybe the slot-part was broken (frontend payment) or maybe just the happy tune it plays when the candybar drops in the bucket, but the candybar did drop in the bucket.
When people put a euro in it and it give the error, they check the bucket or go ask personal. When they do sortlike online, they just keep clicking.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Actually even if you clicked once and the payment went through successfully, it still charged you twice, what happened to me, got no error please try again message, everything went through fine BUT it charged me twice for some odd reason.
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A real showstopper!
[ QUOTE ]
Actually even if you clicked once and the payment went through successfully, it still charged you twice, what happened to me, got no error please try again message, everything went through fine BUT it charged me twice for some odd reason.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's exactly what happened to me too. So it's not just people who retry the process again. (Which involves more steps than the completely non-available click-button again move (Although those that pressed F5 need help))
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
[ QUOTE ]
You can be charged with Fraud even if you have no knowledge of the transaction going through. Ignorance of the action isn't actually any defence against it, legally.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes we all know about the anti-ignorance defense built into legal systems. Thanks for that.
[ QUOTE ]
I've got to do Fraud training every 3 months as part of my job.
[/ QUOTE ]
I used to. All sorts of people do. I don't care.
[ QUOTE ]
It's unfortunate when it's a software glitch, but if you acquire or transact money that isn't yours to transact with, it is fraud.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, I can't commit theft anymore, if it involves money it can only be fraud!
[ QUOTE ]
Now, providing a payment system which inadvertently takes money without authorisation isn't what most of us (myself included) would class as intentional, but it can be said to damage another individual.
[/ QUOTE ]
It can also be said you all clicked on the link to authorise multiple transactions, which has now resulted in NCSoft having to spend its own money to fix the problem, through paid manhours and card charges. By the time this is finished only one single entity will have been damaged; NCSoft. You have defrauded them. It's great fun to build all sorts of bull**** with the wide terms offered by 'fraud', but it's nowhere near as scary as the suits like to pretend it is when they make their powerpoint presentation. I committed fraud on a solicitor once. Actually I shortchanged him by ten pence, but he amusingly went through a list of absurd charges that he could have made because he was bored and wanted to keep eating the free Skittles by the counter. I'd have stopped him if I knew he was eating all my purple ones.
[ QUOTE ]
However, legally (and there are court cases going on right now covering this which may end up spewing out reams of legislation which require heavy system changes, thus my interest) it could be said that providing a system which takes money without authorisation is "Intentional" fraud, depending on what sides the courts end up looking at.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except it didn't take it without authorisation, you all kept clicking the link and pushed through more transactions. Quite obviously why there's going to end up with all sorts of new legislation as you put it, because it's so damn easy to claim anything as fraud when it blatantly isn't, and corporate lawyers probably have to spend six days out of seven kicking a new hole in it because of glitchy internet transactions happening when there's an opportunistic scumbag in the room.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
To claim there is an error and telling you to try again IS fraud as you are saying that the transaction has not gone through. So get off your high horse.
Naturally everyone that did this is wrong and you are right, good grief.
If it costs NC money, then maybe they should have anticipated demand and had a system that could cope with it and not charge people over and over, something incidentally that they have still not even commented on let alone put right.
Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.
Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
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OK, i think everyone needs to calm down a little. Some people got charged more than once for some reason, be that user error, impatience, problems with the site or whatever. Question is, what's happening to those overcharged?
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@Miss Chief
All this arguing is meaningless. It won't get you anywhere so put down your handbags ladies.
As for the transaction problems, as long as the issues related to it are resolved, I'm hunky-dory. If NC themselves have admitted that there was a problem on their side, then they'll help out the affected customers.
Bickering as to whether it is fraud or not... are you going to pursue it in court? If not, put a lid on it.
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Alas, Khorak, you're totally and utterly wrong here. Clearly you haven't been reading the posts from people who quite clearly said they only clicked once (you can only click once anyway), and either did NOT retry when TOLD to do so by the sytem, or followed instructions, yet still got charged multiple times.
It's NC's system itself which is borked; not some user error.
Of course, I won't go so far as to say it's FRAUD. It's clearly a technical problem which they will resolve, but what's pretty bad is the time it's taking to fix. Personally, if I were one affected (I'm not as I'm waiting until this is sorted before I buy), then I'd have done a chargeback by now.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Such as not recognizing that there's Maestro cards starting in 2009, meaning I can't get the booster pack nor can I update my sub at the end of the month.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a known issue and should be resolved in the near future.
[ QUOTE ]
This is a known issue and should be resolved in the near future.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh great I love the "near future"! Its a slighty worse than "shortly" but better than "Soon™"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Such as not recognizing that there's Maestro cards starting in 2009, meaning I can't get the booster pack nor can I update my sub at the end of the month.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a known issue and should be resolved in the near future.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great, finally get a redname on this thread, and the whole overcharging thing is totally ignored. 
Zhaan, Chakyra, Fiorina 161, Aeryn, Polly Nation, Dee Pression, Shazanne, Night Jester and too many more to mention.
Network Hell 47640
Valley of the Harpies 74519
Green and Pleasant Land 75966
In some ways I'd agree, I think we are beginning to see the effects of the operation being solely based in the US. Where we are suffering a bit as a result, maintainence and downtimes happening during the day etc.
I know this needs to be the case as MA is global, however why should we always lose out on playing time and during the Easter holidays is maybe not the best time to do this either with people off work/school etc.
The lack of communication is concerning, after all doesn't cox now have a hardcore base of players rather than attracting lots of new players, in fairness it doesn't seem to be a lot better on the US boards either lately, although it is better. Over the past week - no updates on when the game would be back up, no updates on the booster pack release etc.
With all due respect also, this thread has some unhappy customers who have been incorrectly charged and still no comment from a red name, Avatea has posted above this with some emote details (hardly in keeping with all the posts around it), how about an update or an apology for those over-charged, surely the minimum level of customer service we can expect?
Now I love cox, I play every day, however one of my pet hates is poor customer experience - and on some levels this is what we've been subject to over the past week or so IMO.
Like I said, the game has a hardcore base of players who love this game.....however poor comunication will not be a help to that sustaining that in the long term.
BTW still no further update from support for me
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