Bring Back the Challenge!!!

I agree completely that the game has gotten easier with the decrease in debt.

Seems that even the position of hostage mobs has been 'dumbed' down as well.

Perhaps the debt penalty could be increased, say every 10 levels.

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Defiant

H L50s Doctor Mangler (MoSTF),Phobos,Ms Magma,Hai Karate,Blue Marvel (MoSTF),Joanna Sapphire (MoSTF)
V L50s Bella-Donna (MoLRSF),Ms G,Sulfur (MoLRSF),Doc Mangler,Volga, Noctis Viduata

Globals @ Doc M, Doc.M, Doc-M

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Seems that even the position of hostage mobs has been 'dumbed' down as well

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How do you mean? Cant seem to recall hostage mobs being changed.

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@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!

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I think it's a sign that debt is not a problem when you can die at the mid point of a mission and the debt is cleared with the mission bonus.

Debt needs to be a challenge to players.

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It takes you that long? I've had deaths where the debt has been cleared before I've been Rezzed.

I never experienced the 'old school' hardness, being new to the game, but a little harder would be good.

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Squishies can now solo on invincible (and believe me, I have)

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This is new how?

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Seems that even the position of hostage mobs has been 'dumbed' down as well

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How do you mean? Cant seem to recall hostage mobs being changed.

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For example, in certain office maps there are little back rooms where a hostage would be placed, they don't seem to be placed there any more.

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Defiant

H L50s Doctor Mangler (MoSTF),Phobos,Ms Magma,Hai Karate,Blue Marvel (MoSTF),Joanna Sapphire (MoSTF)
V L50s Bella-Donna (MoLRSF),Ms G,Sulfur (MoLRSF),Doc Mangler,Volga, Noctis Viduata

Globals @ Doc M, Doc.M, Doc-M

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^ This! The game has gotten WAY too easy over the last few issues. Can we have some challenge back please?

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I'm not advocating a "slower levelling grind" Syracuse.

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"The XP curve was "smoothed" out around Issue 11... which actually translates as "make it a lot lot easier" and your comments on debt make me think otherwise. Higher difficulties, sure, but then what? How do you make the game a "challenge" without artifically boosting experience requirements?

A slog isn't a challenge.

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Well, I more or less totally disagree with the OP.

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Let me start by saying where I'm coming from. When I started in 2006, the game was significantly harder than it is now.

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No, actually it wasn't. I'll attempt to explain...

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The XP curve was "smoothed" out around Issue 11... which actually translates as "make it a lot lot easier."

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No, actually it doesn't. It translates to "progression through the game happens at a faster rate." Now, if you choose to define the difficulty of the game in terms of how rapidly you gain levels, then it's easier.

I prefer to define the 'difficulty' of the game in terms of how easy it is to kill mobs.

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I'm convinced that the fear of debt improved my game play.

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That may be the case, but it was actually the 'fear' of debt that did it, not the debt. What has actually happened, and it happened to me long before they changed the way debt was handed out, was that you learned that debt was meaningless. So what if you earn XP at half the rate? You're still earning XP.

I am not an exponent of harsh punishments for death in MMOs. I usually find that those who are are the ones who have been around a while (in one game or another) and have a rather leet attitude. They forget what it was like starting out, when you died a lot more. Or they've never played a game where the punishment really was harsh, like loss of XP, and even of levels.

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Time was, any enemy conning red would make even a good team pause and take stock.

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Time was, I was the same. Know what? I learned the capabilities of my playing and my characters. I got better at the game.

Someone, sorry, forgot who, mentioned early in the thread that they couldn't solo EBs and the like. I have solo'd the entire Praetorian arc (with EBs, not AVs), and I'm doing it again. I solo Snaptooth for candy canes. I am a sucky gamer, but my toons are well built. I would not try it with a Blaster, because I don't know how to.

Meanwhile, one of my characters has the Envoy of Darkness arc sitting there because I'm going to need a team for the sucker. He can't solo that EB. Little b- creep is still pretty darn tough, even as an EB.

Now, one thing that is 'easier' is that AVs downgrade to EBs under the right circumstances. I consider this a total god send. Soloing an EB is not actually less difficult than teaming against an AV. Soloing an AV is an order of magnitude harder than soloing an EB. I can now go and solo missions which formerly had AVs in, it is a challenge to do so.

Over in WoW, pre-Wrath, Blizzard issued a patch which massively reduced the hit points on end-game instance bosses. Suddenly, teams which were making slow progress through tough instances were ripping through them like tissue paper. Now that is making the game easier. I can only ever remember Cryptic making AVs harder, and I don't think NCNC have had the time to make them suddenly squishy.

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Squishies can now solo on invincible (and believe me, I have)

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They always could, given the right squishy and the right player.

In short, I think the challenges are still there and you are crying over some fictional past where everything was harder. What that time actually was was slower, and in particular sections of the way up to 50, a great deal more boring.

However, hand in hand with the faster levelling, there is now Ouroboros, and the ability to go back to, or repeat, significant content. There's no need to miss anything.

I don't see the current state as a problem, really.

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Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

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Squishies can now solo on invincible (and believe me, I have)

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This is new how?

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Aye, have to agree with Extremus on this part.... ok granted it *wasnt* fast, but i could solo from level 32+ on my fire/emp controller.... granted, there were *certain* mobs that i hated (psi damage anyone?), but it was indeed possible in 2005 to do (even post ED)

Other powersets indeed had a harder time of it, and indeed the game has become "easier"...

I personally preferred the 3rd respec (hero side) as a debt removal option compared to exemping, as the earlier levels were HELL for my character.. 1 run through to clear out all the nice and lovely 10 bar debt at level 45+ (before debt got nerfed)

/signed for increasing difficulty of game/more difficulty levels.

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A slower levelling grind doesn't make for a harder one. Just a more annoying one.

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That is a very good point, but on the other hand, debt is feeling entirely irrelevant now, and that can't be right either. (Hell, as a casual player I actually have problems farming debt for my badger after patrol XP came online.)

I'm not so sure I'd say the game was really any more difficult, as in that it required greater skill, it was mostly just more unforgiving. Still, even as a very casual player, the game is starting to feel coddling. Coupled to CoH's fairly trivial challenge level, it's all becoming a bit ... humdrum. Like a bumper car ride with a collision avoidance system.

I'm not sure how to go about upping the ante in CoH, though. To make the game more difficult, rather than just more arduous, would require new behaviour and patterns for the mission mobs, and making an educated guess from how the game appears to work and be wired together, I suspect the existing engine just isn't suited for something like that.

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Totally agree with Scarlet here. Bring back the challenge! But please don't throw in more EB's and the like. Mobs should be nasty enough without the need to use EB's to make heroes and villains move carefully.

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I'm not advocating a "slower levelling grind" Syracuse.

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"The XP curve was "smoothed" out around Issue 11... which actually translates as "make it a lot lot easier" and your comments on debt make me think otherwise. Higher difficulties, sure, but then what? How do you make the game a "challenge" without artifically boosting experience requirements?

A slog isn't a challenge.

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Well I disagree with your premise that smooth = easy.

I also don't agree that challenge = grind.


Smoothing means just that. It doesn't necessarily mean easier it simply means there's less of a jump within certain areas of the game. I remember a big jump at lvl 20 and 30 and so smoothing that out doesn't need to mean it's been made easier.

However I suspect in this case you're mostly right. Rather than make some levels harder and some easier I think they've just left the troughs and trimmed the peaks.

Yes, I'd like to see debt restored to a point where it actually means something. It worked very well as a deterrent to defeat and gave people a reason (other than wanting to help a friend) to team with lower levels. I never found it detracted from the pleasure of my playing experience either.

I'd like to see tougher opponents. By that I mean that when I go into a mish with a couple of blasters, a tank and 5 fire-kins, there will actually be a serious risk of defeat at higher difficulty. I want to feel the sense of achievement that I've not felt in game for a long time. That's all

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I agree with Raven on this one (god help me )

The game still has a lot to occupy me from 1 to 50. Thing is, I dont have the TIME to play all the time. I also tend to alt around a lot, and vary things.

I dont want to have to languish for ever on low levels. I like being able to make progress. There still ARE bits that are hard, and maybe a few things do need tweaking. But its far from broken. And making things really tough...thats an incentive for people how?

If anything, they should allow some sort of 'After' mode. for lvl 50s, some sort of thing to keep them occupied and more interesting. Maybe things that can only be unlocked at 50, 50's only zones and suchnot. Just ideas.

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I prefer to define the 'difficulty' of the game in terms of how easy it is to kill mobs.

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I'm convinced that the fear of debt improved my game play.


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That may be the case, but it was actually the 'fear' of debt that did it, not the debt. What has actually happened, and it happened to me long before they changed the way debt was handed out, was that you learned that debt was meaningless. So what if you earn XP at half the rate? You're still earning XP.

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I think you're working too hard to make a case against what I've said Wing. I said it was the fear of debt, not the debt itself. But you're also attributing things to me that are not true. The debt is significantly reduced now. There's no chance of getting the debt I used to unless I deliberately get defeated. That is what made me come to the conclusion of my orignal post.

As to your statement re difficulty, it is now far easier to kill mobs. Less debt, IOs and general game enhancements, allied to increased experience (which I had already allowed for in my post) mean that killing mobs is far easier than previously.

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What about a very, very sinful possibility - reduced XP for every enemy, mission and task, plus an extra level of difficulty above Invincible?

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@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

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As to your statement re difficulty, it is now far easier to kill mobs. Less debt, IOs and general game enhancements, allied to increased experience (which I had already allowed for in my post) mean that killing mobs is far easier than previously.

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Compared to when? I'd say it was easier before ED personally. Not a lot easier, but still.

I also don't think less debt or more experience makes it easier to kill mobs in general. It makes it quicker to move on, but the mobs move on with you just as they did before.

Personally, I don't think it's really significantly easier than it was. While there have been things that have made it harder, and things which have made it easier, the things which really make it too easy have never changed.

Basically, I think it boils down to this: the majority of the game consists of beating large groups of short-sighted hard-of-hearing and incredibly stupid mobs to a bloody pulp spectacularly, noisily, and quickly. Over, and over, again.

The only points where it gets hard are where there's a large level difference, or an AV, or an unexpected addition to the group you're fighting, be it from a patrol, an ambush, a second group you didn't notice due to the map design, or someone in your team getting confused and attacking a completely different group to everyone else.

I actually like playing on teams where someone's a complete lunatic for that reason. But I digress.

Personally, I agree with Leif, really making the game more of a challenge would require new behaviour for the mobs. Having more states than 'standing still concentrating very hard on making threatening gestures' would be a good start. There's lots of things that could be done in theory, but I don't know how much scope there is for improvement in the game engine. I live in hope though.

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I'd like mobs to be able to sound the alarm if you didn't defeat them fast enough, so there'd me ambushes turning up.
Or have the ones who run away come back with help.

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@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Personally, patrol XP and the smoothing was introduced to get more people to 50. Their grand plan is to introduce some level 50 only content (probably, nay certainly, co-op). They always said not enough people have level 50 characters to justify level 50 content. I'm certain that if they looked at the figures now just about every account over 6 months old with continous payment would have a level 50 or something 45+ that would be 50 in a few weeks. That means they can introduce new content (level cap raise via paid expansion?? Just hypothetically speaking of course!) for 50's only with less players able to say 'but I can't do that content'.

Just a thought.

Oh, yeah, please make the Hero Respec trials more difficult. Now the hardest part is fending of the tedium while waiting for the next wave to arrive.

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Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief

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What about a very, very sinful possibility - reduced XP for every enemy, mission and task, plus an extra level of difficulty above Invincible?

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I'd take that.

I'd actually settle for "Super-Heroic" (difficulty lvl 6) which could mean that maybe you play under debuff for most of the time - I also agree with your suggestion about mobs summoning help if not defeated soon enough.

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With the advent of Invention Origin enhancements that grant better-than-Single Origin bonuses, powers are more effective for longer periods than before the Invention system. Thanks to IO sets, a level fifty character (if fully set-slotted) has the effective capabilities of a level 53 character, higher in some cases.

From my persepctive, this makes mobs easier to beat, making it seem like the game is too-easy. It's not. The game is much as it was before Inventions. If you want proof of this, use a dual-build and slot nothing but SO's to 50++ on your max-level character, and try fighting some Cimerorans or Rikti on maximum difficulty. Then switch back after fifteen minutes or a mission or so, and run it through again with the IO build. If you still feel the game is easier, come back to me with proof and I'll show you my recipe for baseball-cap pie and youtube my eating it (half-serious offer: I like my baseball-cap too much to actually eat it, but will provide a hat-pie recipe).

The IO system also gives a handy way to make things tougher. Slot level 25 vanilla IO's into your level fifty character. They give a less-than-SO enhancement to your powers, making it immediately more difficult to beat the mobs. The level of the IO-slotting can then be fine-tuned until you have a preferred level of challenge.

Oh yes, I'm rather back. Eleven days of moping around showed me that gaming makes me happier than prescription medication, and comes with fewer side-effects.

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Someone, sorry, forgot who, mentioned early in the thread that they couldn't solo EBs and the like. I have solo'd the entire Praetorian arc (with EBs, not AVs), and I'm doing it again. I solo Snaptooth for candy canes. I am a sucky gamer, but my toons are well built. I would not try it with a Blaster, because I don't know how to.

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Well being a Blaster I will give you some advise..Starting with style, finesse, grace oh and around 3 wakies usually works

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I actually like playing on teams where someone's a complete lunatic for that reason. But I digress.

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Keep an eye out for me and my SG in game on Onion... We started the SG (suicial maniacs) due to our slightly off the wall tactics of seeing how fast we can die. Self Destruct is a must.

More on topic, I was playing my level 43 toon last night for the first time in a while. Getting to 40 I managed to die, a lot, The debt didn't worry me that much, as long as I was having fun, dying was just part of the game. However I do notice that the last couple of times I have played i have been creaming orange, red and purples.

If anything it's the combination of better powers, better Enhancements, and getting better at playing the toon that makes it easy. Try starting a new toon. Yellows still make me pause, reds are to be singled out and purples are to be avoided.

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The game became easier if people use inventions. Player character potential power increased whilst enemy strength hasn't been altered (as one of the loading screen tips reminds us).

I must have joined around the same time as the OP (I played a few months before I came to the forums) and so missed ED, but (from all accounts I've seen) Inventions appears to be the counterbalance to ED. Given that pre-ED characters sound like they were super-powered (using super in it's proper sense, meaning over) then it's no surprise that experienced players will find the game easier now that inventions allow characters to approach pre-ED performance once more.

I may be a masochist, or maybe I just like a challenge without feeling I'm intentionally self-nerfing, but I still don't really like the level of reduction in debt cap and the hollows being revamped in cotton wool. Couple these with SG travel temps and it sometimes seems like players don't need to learn about aggro distances anymore and don't have any in-game reason to avoid defeat...

I actually don't like games having heavy defeat penalties, but don't mind games where you're playing under a slight penalty for 5 min or so. This is very different to CoX where, if teamed, it's not unusual for debt to be worked off before the spawn that caused the defeat is itself defeated. This strikes me as too low a penalty.

Although, as Ravenswing pointed out, it isn't really the difficulty that's changed when debt changes. But inventions certainly has changed the difficulty.

Whether it's down to experience or improved slotting options, it's a shame if the game can't still provide challenges for teams of players (teams as solo is easier to provide challenges for).

It'd be good if the devs changed the difficulty system to effectively add spawn sizes and level difference to the TF/flashback options and let us use this interface to control difficulty to a finer degree than is now possible. Keep the existing 5 settings as shortcuts to difficulty presets for new players (and those not bothering to fine tune).

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By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)

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I remember the days of debt at lvl 10

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I feel old I remember debt at level 5. Just in time for the hollows to loom into view.

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Does it reflect bad on me that my mains still can't play in any setting but the lowest one, I can't take down an EB with any of them and I still find the game quite hard when playing with them?

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Depends on what your mains are. I have 2 level 50 blasters. one AR/Dev and the other Fire/Fire. the AR/Dev struggles at times against Heroic. The Fire/Fire runs on Unyielding so that she gets a challenge. To me this is a gross mis-balancing of the powersets.

In general I would say that the game is considerably more forgiving than it used to be. I can remember letting the noobs in the team rush in for the alpha so that I didn't faceplant. Now I am the noob leading the charge. So I die, so what. Any and all debt is usually paid off by the next spawn. With the addition of the low level travel powers gained via the radio missions there is less chance of getting creamed on the way to a mission. So things like the aggro radius that enemies have isn't learnt by new players. I used to think it a challenge to cross the gultch at level 5 dodging the enemies so I didn't go splat. Now I just hit kings, do the missions and get the flight pack. Then go to the hollows.

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Would the easiest way of making it harder without putting some people off be to add a new level of difficulty above Invincible

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But what would it add? more enemies? Higher level enemies? I know my MA/Regen can handle +5 bosses with little problem. Just to push my luck I rushed a fake nemesis and a warhulk both +5 to me. I kicked them all round PI and reaped the XP.

What we really need is better AI, I know it is a lot more work than just slapping more HP and a higher level on enemies, which is the usual response. Imaging the scene. An empath, a stone tanker, a blaster and a scrapper all go after a fake nemesis. The nemesis sees them coming and fires his knockback blast at the defender. the tanker taunts and he moves away from the tanker, who lumbers after him. He then recovers from the taunt and nails the blaster with a knockback. Seeing that the scrapper is about to crash in unstoppable he targets the scrapper and plants a good one on him, down goes the scrapper. The tanker taunts and the FN is off dodging again. The defender goes to rez the scrapper and the FN nails him with knockdown again. etc. etc. Ok I know that is not really how it would go, but wouldn'y it be nice if the enemies had other responses other than run at, hit, hit, hit, hit. or stand still, shoot, shoot, shoot. As other responses what about.

Panic. One of the groups is one shotted. A minon takes off to get help, while the rest do delaying tactics to let them escape.
Fall Back. The enemy falls back towards the next spawn. Attempting to either draw it out into a ranged battle or to get you to trigger the next spawn.
Tanker return. The enemy taunts you. You rush a white dwarf and it uses its taunt and pulls in the heroes.
Delaying tactics. Enemies throw down things like burn, ignite, caltrops, quicksand and then withdraw. The same as heroes do.
Rush em. The leader of a spawn (boss possibly) picks a random target and the whole spawn rushes them. This would be after the alpha so it would be an OMGWTFBBQ!!! moment.

By the way, yes, these are designed to get people killed. Teams with charge, hit, hit,hit,hit,hit,rez,hit,hit,hit,rez as tactics will find themselves getting hurt a lot more.

Also how about varying the powers that the enemies use as well? At present every hellion scorcher has the same powers. Don't they know about ED?

Or missions that actually require you to not wipeout everything moving, but infact give penalties if you try to. These could be more fun to deliberately fail as well. So you need to access a machine without destroying it. If it goes boom, you get increasing size waves of enemies coming to find out why the machine went boom. All you need to do is escape. Combine this with enemies throwing caltrops and you have a nasty mission, or some serious slaughtering fun. Have it be a maximum of N waves ending in an EB. When the team exit it is MISSION FAILED! so there is no farming chance there.

Want Mission Maker.. Want!

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I do find that the reduction of debt is annoying makes getting the badges almost imposible.I have also noticed that in certain cases death has no debt attached to it,I was defeated by some frostlings the other evening and recieved no debt have they removed it the same as with the rikti invasions.Lets have it put back it does make the game more enjoyable and gives you a reason to be careful and not just jump in knowing there will be no penalty for committing suicide.

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Prof Radburn controller,Celtic Ice Maiden,blaster,Miss Knockout scrapper,Mistress Davina controller,Stone Hart,tank Split Personality PB.Queen Lostris controller,Fridgid Mary blaster,Shocking Fire blaster Future Elfling defender, Little Weed controller,Capo Angelo MM, Commander Buzzsaw MM, Justice Tank tank all 50,s