Bring Back the Challenge!!!
By
Blue Rabbit,
Posted on: 2008-12-22 18:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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That many?? 
They must have a good marketing team!
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More like an incredible ability to make games so thoroughly, brutally, and viciously average they will define averageness in every genre they appear in.
Average people will stick to average games, because average is 'normal'. Take Halo as another example. Easily the biggest FPS property on the face of the planet, ever, and yet the games drown you in cloying, relaxing mediocrity. Both Halo and World of Warcraft are enormous tropes, everything people idly expect so they're never surprised and always working that 'vague interest' part of their brain that used to be reserved for daytime TV and soaps. The only actual fun you end up having is during community activities and attribute it to the game, instead of realising you'd be getting the exact same banter and fun out of a game of catch with the same people.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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I think WoW thrives through sheer volume of content,
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To a certain extent, WoW thrives through the sheer number of players. There's a network economy at works here: the more players you have, the more "valuable" the game becomes -- everybody has a few friends who play WoW, and that becomes its own draw. I have no interest in WoW as a game, but even so I've considered playing it just to spend some online time with some friends I see rarely.
Wow Khorak, has anyone told you that you look badly like Chris Barrie in that helmet? Is it you or a picture of Rimmer from Red Dwarf?
It's me, and that would only be a good thing.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
So.. what's Craig Charles like in RL?
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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I'd fully agree it was the player's own fault if it was due to hacks. I'd agree if it was purely because of using 3rd party add-ons or support utilities. Maybe even if it was just because people plan builds in decent character designers.
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We were talking about people's ability to slot out a build at early levels by transfering Inf from their high level characters. That requires the player to choose to do that. If they then find the game easy because they have chosen to circumvent the normal progression mechanism, that's their fault.
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But even then, it's usually early to mid 30s when I have a build with pretty decent IO slotting - i.e it's not something you need to wait til 50 for.
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You're getting 2-3% benefit from that over SOs? In some cases, you'd get more benefit out of the SOs, in fact. Even at level 50, a straight 53 SO is just as good as a 50 IO.
It's only additional bonuses above and beyond that from Sets which will make much difference.
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So: newbies can equip well with luck. Old timers with a transfer. And the rest may have to wait until early/mid 30s... not exactly making it hard to get kitted out with decent IO, are they?
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Except that that hasn't actually really changed any. If you want to spend the cash, you could have slotting at least as good as anything you'll get from IOs, and that was using the boring stuff we had.
Oh... DOs and SOs are available earlier than they were. That has made life a little easier. I'll grant that one.
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I can't really see the damage/problem caused by allowing players to ramp up the difficulty if it's to their choosing. Of course, enforcing increased difficulty on players is a different kettle of fish.
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Agreed, but unlike you, I see an OP which says "this game has got easier. Put the challenges back in." Now, that's not being differential. None of the challenges have ever been removed. They are still there, and they can still bite your head off. What it appears is wanted is that the levelling curve be made steeper, debt be made more viscious. Those are not optional things, those are global things.
(Even I can't get why they put in a rest xp system, btw. I thought it was quick enough anyway. However, Patrol XP does not make the game easier, unless you choose to define difficulty purely in terms of a Race to 50.)
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
If it's a matter of gaining XP too fast then there's always the option to turn off XP.
Level 30 Common IOs (34.8% sched A) are only fractionally inferior to +1 SOs (35%), and cost you less to buy recipes for from the vendor and pay the crafting fee than keeping your SOs at +1 from levels 29-31 would. Level 35 Common IOs (36.7% sched A) are fractionally better than +2 SOs (36.66%). Level 40 Common IOs (38.6% sched A) are fractionally better than +3 SOs (38.33%). Level 45 (40.5% sched A) and 50 (42.4% sched A) Common IOs are significantly better than +3 SOs.
DCUO and CO will never see my money. The Citygame will keep seeing my money for as long as I keep enjoying it
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I'd fully agree it was the player's own fault if it was due to hacks. I'd agree if it was purely because of using 3rd party add-ons or support utilities. Maybe even if it was just because people plan builds in decent character designers.
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We were talking about people's ability to slot out a build at early levels by transfering Inf from their high level characters. That requires the player to choose to do that. If they then find the game easy because they have chosen to circumvent the normal progression mechanism, that's their fault.
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True - although if we look at the preceding comments you'll notice that you brought low levels into this. I originally merely stated that SIO bonuses can make a difference, and you questioned that at low levels... I suggested twinking as a way for it to play at low levels (partly as it was quick and I already tend to be too verbose 
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In a similar manner the set bonuses may be small, but SIO bonuses can make a fair old difference.
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At level 50, yeah. You can afford to fully set up all your toons from level 5 up can you?
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Many longtime players could equip their lowbies quite well if they decided to transfer INF from their higher characters.
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As I lay out in the post you quote, it is possible to use SIOs with a new character, but it may take some luck to do so.
btw - note that I originally talk about SIOs not CIOs. That is why I feel my low/mid 30 builds attained naturally can have a reasonable edge over SIOs. It doesn't take much by way of ED-ignoring set bonuses to have what I think is a noticeable effect...
Note that it's my perceptions - I don't run herostats or smilar, so I don't collect hard stats on performance increase... makes it harder to argue the case, but where would be the fun in turning my gaming passtime into a statistical data-gathering excercise???
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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Level 30 Common IOs (34.8% sched A) are only fractionally inferior to +1 SOs (35%), and cost you less to buy recipes for from the vendor and pay the crafting fee than keeping your SOs at +1 from levels 29-31 would. blah yadda
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Yes, it's more convenient to do it, it's cheaper to do it, but you could have set yourself up to have better enhencements using SOs than IOs. It just cost Inf, and the person I was talking to was stating that players could transfer Inf to their newbie characters.
Thank you for supplying the statistical values required to prove my point.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Thank you for supplying the statistical values required to prove my point.
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I've got to pop out with last minute shopping... but when I get back I'll be happy to check how frankenslotting and simple set slotting compare to SOs and CIOs. Remembering that any enhancement that you'd normally triple slot with SOs is going to lose a fair bit of effectiveness on the 3rd SO due to ED.
Come to think of it, if it hasn't been pruned, there was a couple of threads in the early days of the inventions board reporting upon a US player's numerical analysis of various invention slottings... may be worth looking at if it's still there
iirc That means that even with CIOs the difference between 3x lvl 30/35 CIOs isn't that much compared to old 3 x +3 SO slotting... mix in set bonuses (which defy ED) or better use of slots (as frankenslotting/set slotting can achieve the sameresults in fewer slots than SO slotting) and you can have a noticeably superior build at low/mid 30s...
Of course, new players may not appreciate the power of inventions.. but then, not all long time players fully appreiate them either!
Note - that last line is a general comment and not a dig - I don't know if you fully appreciate IOs or not. I don't really know if I fully appreciate them... though I suspect that, much like myself, you would happily argue that black is white if the mood took you for an interesting argument/discussion.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
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Note - that last line is a general comment and not a dig - I don't know if you fully appreciate IOs or not.
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No offense taken. Hadn't actually considered it as a 'dig' until you brought it up. Now you're on my assassination list. 
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Of course, new players may not appreciate the power of inventions.. but then, not all long time players fully appreiate them either!
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No, I doubt new players do understand what could be done. But that's part of my overally point. This thread is written by old hands who think their greater experience with the game means nothing. The game is clearly easier because it has been made so.
I know my first reaction to IOs was "so what." Then again, they did come out just before I quit playing. When I came back, I looked at them again and began 'Frankenslotting' my old main. It took me about three months to find out I was doing that. I had to ask what 'Frankenslotting' meant on the forums.
I wouldn't say I appreciate the possibilities of IO Sets fully. I still haven't worked out whether any of those extra damage type IOs would be worth putting into my current main's build, for example. But I do do fairly enthusiastic statistical analysis in Mids when trying to work out what to put where.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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When I say Experience I mean that which I have gained as a player
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Well then... that's nice. So what about the poor shmuck just staring out? You want the game to get harder because you've learned to play it, well.. um... boo hoo.
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Defiant 2.0, Temp Powers, Zone revamps all fall under the category of "general game enhancements" to name but 3.
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Okay... can't say much about Defiance (I assume you mean the Blaster power, not the server), but that's one AT, not the whole game.
Temp Powers... I'm going to assume you mean the travel powers available from Safeguard/Mayhem missions. They do indeed make the game 'easier.' By this I mean that lowbie characters can get from A to B easier without discovering what's down the bottom of the Hollows, etc.
However, that reduces debt, it does not make it easier to kill anything.
Now, there's the Vet Powers. Those make it easier to kill things. But, of course, you have to have been playing for several months, if not years, to get those. So we're back to a Veteran winging about times long past if you're talking about those.
And there's always the point that you don't actually have to use any of these Temp Powers if you don't want to.
Zone revamps... have made the game easier? No. Zone revamps made the game more interesting.
Faultline was a waste of space you went to because the mission system forced you to do one hunt and kill there. Now it's a nice place to go spend time in with a series of interesting mission arcs.
The Hollows... don't make me laugh. People have avoided the Hollows for years because you get forced to go there, you had to have a team to do anything much, and it was just a lousy place to go near. Yes, people who love Zerging things enjoyed getting an 8-man team and hitting the place, but that's not for everyone. A lot of people visit Wincott and then never return. I went back there recently for the first time in 3-4 years, and actually spent some time doing missions there.
If you want to go Zerging mobs, there's still Perez, Boomtown, Eden....
So. You say the game is easier due to temp powers, I say don't use them then. You say it's easier due to zone revamps, I say it's more interesting.
You say I'm trying too hard. I say you have no argument, but you're desperate to prove you have.
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Actually I do have an argument but you're not reading the bits that are inconvenient to your counter.
For the record, I and several others have suggested a number of methods of making the game more challenging aas an option, not mandatory. If the game works for you as it stands, then fine. For me, I want something with a bit more spice. That is my opinion and clearly as this thread stands I'm not alone.
I'm not asking for a game re-write, nor am I asking for something that affects everyone universally.
Thelonious Monk
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You're getting 2-3% benefit from that over SOs? In some cases, you'd get more benefit out of the SOs, in fact. Even at level 50, a straight 53 SO is just as good as a 50 IO.
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Level 30 Common IOs (34.8% sched A) are only fractionally inferior to +1 SOs (35%), and cost you less to buy recipes for from the vendor and pay the crafting fee than keeping your SOs at +1 from levels 29-31 would. Level 35 Common IOs (36.7% sched A) are fractionally better than +2 SOs (36.66%). Level 40 Common IOs (38.6% sched A) are fractionally better than +3 SOs (38.33%). Level 45 (40.5% sched A) and 50 (42.4% sched A) Common IOs are significantly better than +3 SOs.
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Thank you for supplying the statistical values required to prove my point.
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Errr is it me or does that statistical rambling only partially prove a tiny part of your mostly incorrect statement Ravenswing? As those stats prove a 53 SO is inferior on a direct comparison with a 50 IO (let alone a hypothetical 53 IO) - when factoring recurring costs of SOs rather than one time cost of SOs, they are supremely inferior.
Also back on the ACTUAL TOPIC. I believe theres some actually good ideas in this thread despite several pages of people whinging about the fairness to new players with making the game harder. Personally I think the new game mode ideas (like defeat x mobs in certain time or get big ambushes and so on), a particular increase and augmentation to AI along with a new 6th difficulty setting would really through a great deal of life back into the game. And all to the benefit of all as veterans get a challenge and new players have shiny new things to suck them in as well.
And to the comments of IOs, sets and new players - there IS a tutorial ya know!!! If ya actually read the info in it you learn everything. I had IOs worked out by doin that very tutorial the day it came out and low and behold I knew. But hey apparently my veterancy means I can read whats in front of me and use that knowledge seconds later. Or maybe, just maybe, I can see whats directly in front of me.
/endsarcymode
Ok I do agree that getting the very best out of sets is near impossible for the new player mostly due to inexperience with the game, powers and ATs. However, I seen plenty of new unplanned setted chars do brilliant, so lets not tar all new players as inexperienced, incapable morons - some could very well have more than a single braincell and can actually read a tutorial (yes the sarcymode switch wasn't turned all the way off lol).
And to the moaners yes you can calm down the Independent Thought Alarm my opinions have set off should die-down soon.
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11 million WoW subscribers says you're wrong.
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That many?? They must have a good marketing team!
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A very good marketing team, huge budget, and a great deal of luck.
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Luck has nothing to do with it tbh. But I agree with the huge budget and great marketing team.
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This may be somewhat controversial, but I suspect I'm not alone in this. I could be in a minority, I accept but I truly believe it's a significant one.
Let me start by saying where I'm coming from. When I started in 2006, the game was significantly harder than it is now. It was a slower drive to 50, with many more challenges in than now.
Partly that was because end-game content was far less but also because of a different mind-set between Cryptic and NCSoft.
With NCSoft taking over the IP I've noticed a dramatic dumbing down of the game. The route to lvl 50 to me seems way too easy, and in fact the lack of a challenge now means that once I get a level 50 I rarely play that toon because... well, no effort means no meaning.
The XP curve was "smoothed" out around Issue 11... which actually translates as "make it a lot lot easier."
Defeat Debt has been so reduced as to be totally meaningless. It's pointless now, whereas when I first came to the game it was something to be avoided. I'm convinced that the fear of debt improved my game play. Now the biggest hassle isn't the debt, it's finding a way to avoid the trek back from the hospital and even that's made easy by fabrication of wakeys.
Time was, any enemy conning red would make even a good team pause and take stock. Now only the most dysfunctional teams fail to munch through purple mobs.
Squishies can now solo on invincible (and believe me, I have)
It's hardly "heroic" (or indeed "villainous") to right wrongs or do evil when there's nothing difficult about it. The whole philosophy of the game now seems to be "make it easy so they'll play more." I don't believe that is the case. I think make it challenging and it keeps people keener for longer.
I do agree that it's a fine line. With Jack Emmert at the helm, things were arguably too tough. Positron, IMO has swung the pendulum too far in the other direction.
Sure, I'm happy to admit that almost 3 years down the line I'm a better player than I was when I started... but that's partly because I had to be. If I didn't, I'd be face planting with (at least) a bar of debt and a long trek back from the hospital.
I'm aware that by posting this I could be seen as one of the old men from the Python sketch: "When I were a lad..." but that's to misunderstand my point - the game is great. It doesn't need to be dumbed down to make it fun. In fact the opposite is true. Make it consistently challenging and rewarding and it's an improvement.
So please Devs... give us back something to get our teeth into!
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I have been saying this for ages
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Luck has nothing to do with it tbh. But I agree with the huge budget and great marketing team.
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Speaking as someone who works in the world of online marketing I would disagree.
I would have thought I'd fit the profile of the type of person WOW would want to target, and yet I hardly ever seen there adverts.
So they either have a wierd market segment they are targetting, or they are using very low-tech marketing solutions.
Anyway - back to the topic - Challenge pls!
it's not as easy as it was when fire tanks were at their prime it's not as easy as pre ED
and I know that many ATs can have a really hard time completing a mish if rep is set to heighest
might not be too hard if you're a tank or perhaps a scrapper, but it's still a challange
oh.. and lvling isn't at easy as is was either, can't remember what issue made it imposible, but the PLing today isn't anything near of what is was before
you can make this game hard if you really want to
I agree Scarlet
I agree. Things are way way way TOO easy.
Personally I hated the "smoothing" xp curve. It meant far to much xp and being someone who wanted to get temp powers and contacts at earlier lvl that meant: GO SOLO! Fortunatly with the NO XP Feature i can now play slow... as I want it.
The Smoothing made certain we always had xp... debt is tough to get. Thats not all.
Sure the Event channel makes things easier to get people to do GM hunts (and with merits it is actually worthwhile... more then before). However now everyone (im all for that) can get badges etc... so easy.
The challange to get certain badges where gone.
The DayJob patrol xp.. is even another step. Even more xp... when it was already easy.
Please Devs... stop dumbing the game down. Without challanges this game will be just like many other EASY games out there. Let us feel "Wow.. that was an experience" not "another 50.. yawn.. what to do now?"
Im not an avid PvP'er but my impression from a few i encountered (do correct me if im wrong), is that the pvp has been so much level playfield. That the years of experience they have racked up means nothing.
Im all for giving more people the chance of doing certain things they did not do before... but atleast give us a challange, a sense of accomplishment for doing things. (And im not talking about increasing the amount of times you have to do things).
Players ARE and will ALWAYS have a REWARD compensates the RISK. Now there is little to no risk.
There are fewer times now that I will soar though the hollows on my emp, ready to buff the lowbies who tries to outrun the wildlife. Why... cause its not needed. Before the changes you learned how to pull, how to move, how to fight... as there was risk involved. If you died and there was no one to help you... it was back to Atlas or Skyway and run back. That was a motivator to keep on your toes.
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
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I think most people have shut their minds off to many things with this game, avoiding many of the challenges they can set themselves and get into; and then say it is too easy.
I say that because there are still things the general population fails to achieve that could of been done a long time ago. Other things that are achieve able but done with lots of deaths ie all those deaths I see when people are doing AVs in RV..don't need to happen.
People are still "needing" certain sets to get things done especially on the STF, granite pls, kin pls, rad pls! Somethings don't really require that much survivability but its done so that there is less thought and more speed. Some people are making their lives comfortable and to then complain about how easy the game is...
Being oblivious to some hurdles and asking for a harder game now that your characters have IOs and found the easy ways, most recipes from exploits , is not fair on the new player.
A higher setting? That could be an option to get severer spawns but most people leveling up will probably go on the "challenging enough" and "xp/time" settings rather than the "Five different teams in one mission" setting. I'd like a higher setting so that the spawns are "slightly" harder. Not +5s though as half the powersets would be taking pity spots if anything was above +4. Possibly just more dangerous spawns for lvl 50s so that there is a reason in PVE to rank their characters up.
I miss the old debt because if a mistake was made it hit home but few people revised how they should go about things. The reason for the mistake got repeated. Sometimes the team mates that could of or should of done something just laugh at some squishies 8th faceplant.
I am against cherry picking powersets whatever the outcome of this thread. It maybe better to have no outcome.
I find other people challenging, like when a tanker turns an AV towards the team, when a blaster chooses to enter LoS of another group rather than make use of a football field of space out of perception or line of sight, when a controller prevents consolidation of taunt control in the early stages of a fight and like when a debuffer is up your butt even after interception. I throw the towel I really do.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I think WoW thrives through sheer volume of content, it is easy (and dull and horribly generic) but there's a lot to do and they have resources ploughing in quick enough for the dev team to keep ahead of the field. No other MMO can really do that.
I tend to agree this game has stepped a little too far in the direction of ease, particularly as regards death effects and consequences... the threat of death/defeat is something the game should use to generate excitement and challenge but seems to have become nothing more than a minor break to go get a cuppa. I was never a fan of XP debt, but there just isnt any real impact when you fall now.