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There's loads of different uses for this.
You could have one build with priority on offence, and another with defences prioritised, then choose depending on the team make-up.
You could have one regular build, and another geared for a specific TF/SF or enemy group (e.g. one that sacrifices some damage resists, to increase resistance against end drain).
You could have a PvP and a PvE build.
SOA and Khelds get obvious benefits.
You could have a team focussed and a solo focused build.
You could have a level 50 build and an exemp-friendly build.
If you really wanted, you could have a comedy build where you pick all the 'duff' powers and random power pools just for the hell of it. That could represent your toon's alter ego?
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I totally agree there - the more I think about it the more it could come in useful. Espcially for toons with a powerset geared towards teaming, it will give them a chance to solo if necessary. I know for me I already have ideas for my second builds:
Black Karhu - Im going swap out Leaping and insert Fly, just so I can finally explore the Shadow Shard!
Tired Angel - Give him a team support build, concentrating on holds etc and healing and less on damage
Shadow Mercury - Give him a "tank" build, concentrating on defense and getting aggro
Apocalyptic Jester - Give her a solo build, means I can skip a couple of powers that aren't any use when soloing
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Solo and TF/Team builds on my controllers/defender.
Farm/Team on my Fire/Kins
Though how are respecs handled with multi-builds? Does a respec allow you to respec both builds or just one? If its just one surely there need to be more earned respecs in game.
the respec applies to whichever build is currently active.
I really should do something about this signature.
Ok, just used my respec and tidied up my primary build and then visited a trainer to tweak my second build for PvP and took the slow step-by-step power by power slot by slot approach to level fifty and recreated my build albeit with the forementioned PvP-tweakage and my current set bonuses in mind - clicked on done and expected to be greeted with duplicates of my enhancements (disabled for selling or reimbursement at the end)....
What I actually got was an entirely unslotted build. 
I thought (obviously wrongly,apparently) that a duplicate build would be used as (to speak personally) all I wish to change on my build which takes into account set-bonuses is...
#One-slot off of TK-Blast
#Said slot added to an Epic powers change.
Thats it, thats all I needed to do.
There is no way on Earth I am going to spend 3 more years grinding a Billion Inf for a duplicate build so wonder...
How are Dual-Builds going to be encouraged on veterans? - Anyone?.
Yours slightly peeved off, at a now-defunct feature that I was actually looking forward too.
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, just used my respec and tidied up my primary build and then visited a trainer to tweak my second build for PvP and took the slow step-by-step power by power slot by slot approach to level fifty and recreated my build albeit with the forementioned PvP-tweakage and my current set bonuses in mind - clicked on done and expected to be greeted with duplicates of my enhancements (disabled for selling or reimbursement at the end)....
What I actually got was an entirely unslotted build.
I thought (obviously wrongly,apparently) that a duplicate build would be used as (to speak personally) all I wish to change on my build which takes into account set-bonuses is...
#One-slot off of TK-Blast
#Said slot added to an Epic powers change.
Thats it, thats all I needed to do.
There is no way on Earth I am going to spend 3 more years grinding a Billion Inf for a duplicate build so wonder...
How are Dual-Builds going to be encouraged on veterans? - Anyone?.
Yours slightly peeved off, at a now-defunct feature that I was actually looking forward too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doing it the way you expected it to happen could just lead to a free set of very, very expensive enhancements being available and "farmed" out to other characters - you could respec after doing the dual build, after all.
Bad move.
Sorry it wasn't what you were expecting, but that's not really a practical solution.
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
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I plan to go with SO's for the builds I play less.
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Couldn't they just disable the unused automatic selling of unused enhancements?, ie: if you only want to change a little you can... and not lose the rest.
Therefore the intentional unslotting to get the big pay-out at the end wouldn't be a factor. Just a thought. 
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(snip)
How are Dual-Builds going to be encouraged on veterans? - Anyone?.
Yours slightly peeved off, at a now-defunct feature that I was actually looking forward too.
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To be fair it does say this in the patch notes
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Enhancements are not shared between builds. The second build is slotted with enhancements separately from your first build.
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I suppose giving a duplication of our enhancements could be exploited in some way *shrug*
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I suppose giving a duplication of our enhancements could be exploited in some way *shrug*
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Well, you could make your second build enhancement free, and so sell all the enhancemnets copied over form your first build 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I plan to go with SO's for the builds I play less.
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I think thats what most will be doing. It just boggles the mind to be honest that Norcal can give us such a revolutionary game-extending system that was 'Invention-Origin' enhancements... then introduce a re-vamped PvP system that doesn't factor in all the hard work players have put into that system thus far for inclusion in dual-build.
Totally boggles the mind personally. Anyway, ho-hum. 
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I plan to go with SO's for the builds I play less.
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I think thats what most will be doing. It just boggles the mind to be honest that Norcal can give us such a revolutionary game-extending system that was 'Invention-Origin' enhancements... then introduce a re-vamped PvP system that doesn't factor in all the hard work players have put into that system thus far for inclusion in dual-build.
Totally boggles the mind personally. Anyway, ho-hum.
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Its a bit worse than ho hum actually.
the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.
the vast majority will never be able to do it any real meaningful way.
So, the game will have the few multi built, fully setted alts and the rest will play a kind of catch up they can never achieve.
Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.
The only real way you can progress with your alt and power up is to farm, farm farm. And they've just compounded the problem. Especially if you want to PvP.
Is this really the direction a sensible game should take?
And there are probably 10 different ways they could have allowed your enhancements to be duped without serious exploits.
Why do they think that this system that will only frustrate the majority of players is a winner?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.
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What utter rubbish. You simply don't need two fully setted builds to play reasonably well. The game isn't built that way. Sets are primarily of use to PvPers, and they only need them in one build.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Its a bit worse than ho hum actually.
the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.
the vast majority will never be able to do it any real meaningful way.
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What utter tripe, many people will fully utilise the multi-build system with or without Set IOs. Hell many people play the game now without set IOs, I myself don't have any fully setted builds and I am a farmer. Adding a multi-build feature is not going to change that. But some people will be able to change their build to accommodate different situations, while the feature is aimed at PvP, you only have to look at some of the replies in this thread to see that people have already come up with different ideas as to how they'll use it.
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So, the game will have the few multi built, fully setted alts and the rest will play a kind of catch up they can never achieve.
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It won't change at all, there are one or two (or more) players who are fully purpled up now and after a few weeks (or less) some players will have two builds. But as you can only use one at a time apart what difference to anyone will it make?
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Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.
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Earth to Lionsbane...
Thats how it was before the patch too, or have you found a whole load of end game content that everyone else missed?
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Is this really the direction a sensible game should take?
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More options are always better, if you don't want to use a feature you don't have to. If its not there those people who do can't.
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Why do they think that this system that will only frustrate the majority of players is a winner?
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I know what you think but TBH I'll wait until a few weeks have passed before I write it off, it may be that it'll flop and no-one will use it, or it may do really well and become the thing that everyone does use. But to say that a feature won't be used before the servers have been back online for what six hours is plain stupid.
I think this is the crux of your argument, LB:
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Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.
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With which (naturally ) I'd disagree - I play the game for the experience of trying out new powers for a particular AT and powerset combo. When a toon reaches 50 I've no interest at all in eking out every last ounce of performance by kitting it out with minimaxed sets up uber IOs - the occasional TF run aside I just forget about it and switch to another alt.
On the way to 50 I'll slot IO sets if I spot something handy-looking available at the AH, but that's a means to an end, not the end in itself.
With that in mind I'll find the dual build system handy - some ATs/sets can have usefully different builds for (for example) soloing and teaming, so as well as adding a bit of variety the dual builds can make the overall process quicker. In terms of the practicalities of kitting out a dual build with IOs, I generally find that by the low 20s I'm starting to get a single build usefully slotted with IOs and accumulate a bit of spare inf besides. So beginning to slot a second build in the mid-/late-20s is looking entirely feasible.
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the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.
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This really is unmitigated nonsense.
Anyone with a little patience will be able to get good use from multibuilds by Frankenslotting. With that patience, you can easily buy 2- and 3- aspect yellow recipes (at a level where their total performance far exceeds SOs) and the salvage to craft them for 20k per slot. Another 50k or so for crafting, and you're paying 70k a slot for 91 slots on a level 50 character (assuming every single slot can benefit from a 2/3/4 aspect IO, which is _not true_).
That's 6.4 million influence to completely kit out the second build on a level 50 with total bonuses from enhancements comparable to HOs. Met many level 50s without 6 million influence to hand?
Of course, if you don't have 6 million influence, you can complete the build with plain high-level IOs - which, beyond the obvious fact that the recipes and salvage drop frequently, costs pocket money if you wait until someone doing the crafting badges dumps a load on the market. A bid of 1,111 will fetch you pretty much any plain IO if you wait a few days. That's about 100k to kit out your level 50 with enhancement values considerably better than those possible with SOs. You're not exactly going to be crying in PVE.
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Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.
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It is? If you ask me, the real meat of the game's from 14->30 or so. Once a character gets to 50 the point is to tie off a few loose ends and heed the seductive cry of the character creator. A new powerset, an at least fresh archetype, and a new team dynamic beckon.
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The only real way you can progress with your alt and power up is to farm, farm farm. And they've just compounded the problem. Especially if you want to PvP.
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Well, no, not especially if you want to PVP.
There are two reasons you might want to grind out purples indefinitely.
One is that you are a PVPer. Before multibuilds - you wanted one build full of purples. After multibuilds - you want one build full of purples, but now that build doesn't have to be compromised in any way to make it easier to level in PVE.
The other, frankly, is that you're some sort of refugee from WoW who likes grinding purples for its own sake. Now I think the decision to add a game element for people who look to endless grinding at the level cap as the epitome of MMO gameplay makes perfect commercial sense, unspeakably tedious as I would find it myself - but those people should not then complain about getting twice as much of what they enjoy.
Face it; no-one's making you use a second build, but if you _do_ use a second build you can get perfectly good PVE effectiveness on it for tiny amounts of influence. If you then look at that second build and want to fill it with sets and purples, you've no-one to blame but yourself; if you want to do it, _do it_, and don't complain about being "made" to do something you want to do; if you don't want to do it, _don't do it_, and enjoy your second build's perfectly good effectiveness for whatever you did want to do.
Having said all that, if I personally were implementing multibuilds, I'd have considered a system where any enhancement slotted in one build is available as a "ghost" in the other build - can only be slotted, not sold, stored, respec-sold, stuffed up your nose, or whatever.
Of course that would favour those whose second build contained trivial changes over those whose second build was radically different - but equally, the current system favours those ATs who can make do without a second build at all (hem-hem scrappers).
However, I think the real reason that wasn't done was to further promote an aspect of the IO system; that it redistributes influence from the vast piles accumulated by 50s who pre-IOs had quite static builds to the lowbies at the bottom.
Remember how it was pre-IOs? If you didn't have a highbie sugar daddy, you never slotted a TO, in order to afford that first precious set of DOs - and then in SO levels you were constantly running to catch up with the rotting SOs.
These days, that's all a thing of the past - even a tiny bit of attention to selling, and any toon will rapidly accumulate enough influence to be fully kitted up for PVE for their whole career.
Aspects of the system lead me to believe that's not an accident - primarily the way some IOs are better at low level than at high level. What better way to make rich 50s disburse vast quantities of cash into the pockets of lowbies?
Hence no enhancement sharing. If you're rich, you've now got an incentive to disburse twice as much cash - or more, as demand rises for the really good drops (but equally Merits will affect supply in a way I don't think anyone understands yet). If you're not, that means there's twice as much cash out looking for your lucky drops, making it easier still to become PVE-effective (since there's a vast salvage surplus overall and the game sells SOs and single-aspect IO recipes, the price of these does not double even if the demand does).
I like it
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[ QUOTE ]
the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.
the vast majority will never be able to do it any real meaningful way.
[/ QUOTE ]
So.... The game wasn't meaningful before IO's??
Even though I couldn't possibly afford to IO out Wednesday's second build with the same kind of goodies anytime soon, I still don't see how I'm losing out. It's another nice option, one I think I'll be making good use of.
The game is now easier that it was pre i9, meaning that an SO PVE build is even more viable than it was then. You don't have to IO BOTH builds in order to play and be effective, although I fear amongst the games population there is the "I NEED TEH PURPLEZ" mentality, which could make people see farming as even more of a necessity than they do now.
Perception of a situation, whether real or not can be a powerful force.
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Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.
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Which just shows that, ultimately, you've COMPLETELY missed the entire point of a game like this, which is to have FUN.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I always assumed you'd need to 'earn' your second build's worth of enhancements. In my eyes, it gives the aforementioned 'veterans' something to work towards (if they choose to). Remember, a dual build is optional, and (in my opinion), really for PVP (or missioning, if you want a 'team' build and a 'solo' build - or possibly a 'blaster' build and a 'blapper' build).
I'm waiting to see what new IOs are available, and then I'm overhauling my primary build. If and when I build a 'secondary' build, I'll remove the simpler things like 'aid other' and 'teleport friend', and focus on attack/defence. However, I'm fully aware of the fact that this is a 'project', and will require time, money (influence) and effort.
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[ QUOTE ]
the only people that can utilise this typically badly thought out multi build system are going to be those that can afford to. In other words the hard core farmers basically.
the vast majority will never be able to do it any real meaningful way.
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So.... The game wasn't meaningful before IO's??
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Well that was different because IOs werent there for people to want to get.
Ok. let me put it like this. This entire issue has been clearly stated as a drive to make pvP work. The purpose of that is surely to increase interest in PvP, and by definition improve the overall number of people who continue to play the game.
Whether it succeeds or not (im referring to the PvP power changes which is another subject entirely)isnt the point here. I'm referring to the goal
I have already laid my opinion as to why PvP will not succeed in any meaningful way and that the powers are the least of its problems. It's to do with the fact that only hard core farmers or seriously dedicated players can get the full io sets and that they are then pretty much unbeatable unless they face another player at least reasonably setted up. .
This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.
Now, the idea of having one alt with a PvP set and a PvE set is a good one because the two enviroments have different power requirements.
But the idea that you have to start building your enhancements from scratch totally defeats the object and simply (and greatly) exacerbates the problem I mention above.
There are very few players who will be able to enjoy this system. It wont work for the collective at all.
[ QUOTE ]
Even though I couldn't possibly afford to IO out Wednesday's second build with the same kind of goodies anytime soon, I still don't see how I'm losing out. It's another nice option, one I think I'll be making good use of.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whether you are losing out personally is a matter of personal perspective.
What will happen is the large number of supposed players who the devs will want to attract to PvP will simply give it up because this actually makes it even harder (to the point of impossible for many people) to compete in the PvP theatre.
It's because if you cant begin to match the hard core players IOs in PvP you will lose interest entirely in it.
After all, when you realise that you are simply are going to be forever the loser and you cant change that because you will never get 500 millin inf (thats just for one version of your alt never mind two) you'kll end up giving up PvP entirely.
Maybe not you personally but the community that the devs are so anxious to try it out.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.
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Assuming that PvP requires heavy Setting of builds, then that will always exclude the casual player, and nothing they can do will ever change that.
OTOH, Dual builds means the casual player can have a build which they are slowly slotting out for PvP while keeping a build stocked with 'lesser' but perfectly adequate SOs which they use to obtain the cash needed to get the Set components.
Cut the DOOM, Lionsbane, your logic is faulty.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately, the whole point to a game like this is to advance your alt as far as the game will let you.
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Which just shows that, ultimately, you've COMPLETELY missed the entire point of a game like this, which is to have FUN.
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No I havent. What constitutes fun is a personal thing. And it covers a wide variety of areas.
A common denomintator in FUN for the vast majority of human beings is striving towards (and achieving) one goal or another. Any body, even game designers, will tell you that.
Other wise all you're doing is digging ditches.
And a reasonable number of set IOs are goals most people who play this game cant achieve.
Certainly not if they have to support two versions of the same char.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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it's an over-hyped pointless addition to me, my build is great, I don't need to change it.
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Different ATs/builds/powersets have very different solo/team/PvP capabilities.
It's great that your build doesn't need changing.
I'm guessing that you aren't a team build defender (looking at empaths especially) who occasionally wants to solo. Or someone who'd like to do some occasional PvP but knows that the build they have (and are happy with) for PvE would be effectively gimped in PvP. Or any of the other characters who will benefit from the dual build system being implemented.
I have characters who I don't think will use dual build. I have others for which this is a much needed godsend.
BTW in guildwars: whilst in an instance you are stuck with only 8 powers out of the many you may know. Ease of power swapping (between instances) and saving/loading many multiple builds is pretty much a neccesity. In CoX you always have all powers you know equipped/accessible.
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