[ QUOTE ]
My logic is not faulty at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
But by your own admission you're thick. Why trust the logic of someone like that.
/rimshot
[ QUOTE ]
And a reasonable number of set IOs are goals most people who play this game cant achieve.
Certainly not if they have to support two versions of the same char.
[/ QUOTE ]
But if the IOs are really only critical for PvP then you are still only supporting one, but you have the option of having a different build that will allow you to get the Inf for those IOs easier.
[ QUOTE ]
My logic is not faulty at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But by your own admission you're thick. Why trust the logic of someone like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nice one. Completely out of the blue. Why entire a proper conversation when you can be so innovative in your barbs?
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
The game is now easier that it was pre i9, meaning that an SO PVE build is even more viable than it was then. You don't have to IO BOTH builds in order to play and be effective, although I fear amongst the games population there is the "I NEED TEH PURPLEZ" mentality, which could make people see farming as even more of a necessity than they do now.
Perception of a situation, whether real or not can be a powerful force.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with el'rat, for example I currently have a very very effective build on my main scrapper.
(with a huge thanks to Eros for it I asked and he delivered....I was an average pvp'r before and now im an average pvp'r with a better build...its like wearing body armour to stop you getting beat up by 10 yr olds - I dont get hurt but im still rubbish under it all 
)
The build is formidable in solo PvE but an absoulte wonder in PvP, with its high survivability I have been able to have masses of fun in the Zones.
Now the build is fairly a cheap one revolving around a little frankenslotting...not one purple in sight, yet the def is almost capped for most areas....however I have lost some powers I liked for PvE that I had on his previous build.
The dual build option means now that I can slot a secondary with a more team orientated feel and ill just pop in regular IO's as I had before - which were v.effective in PvE....and at 50 all I have to do is run missions/arcs/TFs and gain the regular IO's as pick ups without having to overspend.
So to wrap up I see it as a good thing, I dont buy into the "need" for purples, yes they are nice but with some shifting around you can work in a very good build without having to spend millions per slot.
(this is only my experience and im not saying it applies to everyone I just find it a very useful tool, and no I dont farm before you ask )
Art of War Co-Leader - Union *Global@Warscythe*
"The box said Windows Vista or better - so I installed Linux"
[ QUOTE ]
Nice one. Completely out of the blue. Why entire a proper conversation when you can be so innovative in your barbs?
[/ QUOTE ]
Calm down, calm down, we're all gonna have opinions on this. We're all individuals here.
*sets about booby-trapping Quote button to catch MPFC fans*
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
[ QUOTE ]
Nice one. Completely out of the blue. Why entire a proper conversation when you can be so innovative in your barbs?
[/ QUOTE ]
Just figured I'd take a leaf out of your book and retread old ground. No need for innovation, eh?
You're just basically repeating "I'm right" and "no it isn't" over and over again. Murdering many, many, many thesauruses (thesauri?) in the process, but still not saying much. That comment of yours I quoted summed it up, WITH HILARIOUS RESULTS.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that PvP requires heavy Setting of builds, then that will always exclude the casual player, and nothing they can do will ever change that.
[/ QUOTE ]
it never used to be like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes it did.
For starters, you can't actually be good at PvP unless you spend time learning to do it. Casual players don't really have the time to do that.
Second, either you can get by without large amounts of Sets in place or you can't. Putting in multi-builds has not changed that at all. If you do need Sets, then being a Casual player either does or does not preclude you from that. Multi-builds have not changed that either.
What multi-build has done, is let you have an unsetted PvE build, and play casually to build up a setted PvP build.
[ QUOTE ]
What a let them eat cake philosopy that is.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you actually know what that means?
[ QUOTE ]
My logic is not faulty at all. And I havent created the doom. They have.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have stated that multi-builds changes the game to make it impossible for casual players to get into PvP, when actually, it's the opposite.
Your logic is based on the assumption is that you must have two fully setted builds to function. This is a totally invalid assumption. This is why your logic is faulty.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not the one who has shot the current powers on PvP to bits while trying to improve PvP for the wider masses.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is totally irrelevent.
[ QUOTE ]
And if there is a doom to my comments its because an almighty train is coming round the corner.
And, with precious little time left, the PvP drive, which has constituted this issue has actually put this game back not forward. Or do you disagree with that assessment too?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I personally think any concentration on PvP is a waste of time. It should never have been added to the game, so I don't really think my opinion on whether these changes were worth it is valid.
I think I'd prefer to judge what result it's had based on the PvP situation in a couple of months, in both the EU and the US.
Edit to fix quoting
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
[ QUOTE ]
This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that PvP requires heavy Setting of builds, then that will always exclude the casual player, and nothing they can do will ever change that.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it never used to be like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes it did.
[/ QUOTE ]
No it didnt. PvP was about your power choices, the way you slotted them and then, to an extent, your ability with the char. i freely admit that in many cases, some sets simply couldnt beat others and that it was a kind of rock, scissors type of event. And I'm not saying that was right.
And, some sets were overpowered and needed fixing. But:
What I am saying is this. I fought Londoner several times and I couldnt dent him once. Not because his build was better necessarily. Or that he was faster on the draw than me but because he was IO setted up and I wasn't.
It's like playing golf against someone who has a club so superior to anything I can afford that I simply cant match his swing or the accuracy his club gives him.
I'm not knocking Londoner at all. Or the guy with the expensive club.
Im saying that, why fight Londoner or anyone of any IO standard at all when I simply CANNOT win? And therefore, why PvP when I know I'm handicapped from the start?
In light of the fact that i13 was devoted to encouraging PvP play perhaps you can explain it to me seeing as I'm being disagreed with?
[ QUOTE ]
For starters, you can't actually be good at PvP unless you spend time learning to do it. Casual players don't really have the time to do that.
[/ QUOTE ]
That actually isnt necessarily true although I take your point. But no matter how skillful an unsetted player is, they cannot beat a player with sets.
If I was fighting someone who had a better power selection than me or was slotted better (pre ed i mean. All slots are much of a muchness now, particularily with melee based chars)then thats fine. I can potentially improve my build or slotting. But if I simply cannot win, what is the point?
[ QUOTE ]
Second, either you can get by without large amounts of Sets in place or you can't. Putting in multi-builds has not changed that at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
If I cant afford to fill up one char with setted ios then wehat possible chance do I have with two? Even normal IOs are expensive.
I seem to remember that everyone thought ED was justified when IOs came in.
Ah that was why they dropped our powers- so we can regain some of them through inventions.
If you are now suggesting to me that I should use SOs for my PvE version (which is by far the most predominant aspect to most peoples game) and set IOs (assuming I can afford them which I cant) for PvP then that throws that theory out of the window doesnt it?
As far as I am concerned, set IOs are too difficult to achieve, they have created a have and have not division in the game that manifests itself primarily in PvP.
And the only realistic way to catch up is not through gameplay as such but farm farm farm. It is ludicrous.
And they are yet another reason that the subs are going down not up. And because you are one of the haves, you dont appreciate that.
[ QUOTE ]
I can afford them
[/ QUOTE ]
And how exactly did you aquire the hundreds of millions necessary? Let me take a wild guess. A whole lot of farming.
Im not knocking you. But what a way for a develop team to allow a game to run!
[ QUOTE ]
What a let them eat cake philosopy that is.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you actually know what that means?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not happy with that patronising question. It means I'm alright Jack so who cares about the have not? They can make do with what they've got. It's an attitude you are suggesting to me that you possess.
Especially with your "I can afford them" comment.
[ QUOTE ]
My logic is not faulty at all. And I havent created the doom. They have.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have stated that multi-builds changes the game to make it impossible for casual players to get into PvP, when actually, it's the opposite.
[/ QUOTE ]
You think? Well if the subs go up in the next quarter then maybe youre right.
I bet anything they will drop again.
[ QUOTE ]
Your logic is based on the assumption is that you must have two fully setted builds to function. This is a totally invalid assumption. This is why your logic is faulty.
[/ QUOTE ]
My logic is based on the fact that the casual player is not going to want to play one gimped version of his alt and one powered up version. He or she will want both alts to rock. And, may I ask why thats such an awful want?
I think theyll expect it will take time and game play and they'll be happy with that. I dont think they'll want to play old macdonald ad- infinitum to achieve that goal which is where the game is gonna pull them.
And I think the devs have been taking too many of the wrong pills if they think this strategy will in any way advance the PvP cause.
The simple act of duping your enhancements along with your alt would have gone at least some way to addressing that.
The fact it hasnt occurred to them to do that or thinks its not worth taking the time to address possible exploits fills me with dispair.
Cause yet again theyve turned a minor victory into a crashing defeat.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not the one who has shot the current powers on PvP to bits while trying to improve PvP for the wider masses.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is totally irrelevent.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's totally relevent.
Someone barbed me about doom.
Well in 6 months or less CO is coming out and this game has been in behind the bycicle shed doing god knows what while it could have been working out how to compete with a new super hero came thats (potentially) going to offer way way more in terms of gameplay, innovation, you name it.
And then, if the game can handle this hit, along is gonna come DC.
And they're runing around "fixing" a PvP when they dont even understand the core problem with it
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
It appears, Lionsbane, that you are the only one who doesn't like this. Your one arguement, that it is too hard to IO both builds, is easily outweighed by the numerous other reasons people like this. Added to the fact that you are more than welcome not to use it and only IO your one build, then you lose nothing except the benifit of having a build better suited to PvE that the PvP one you have.
Saying people would like both builds to be powered up, surely it's better to have 2 builds, one 'gimped' that is suited to PvE and one 'powered up' that is suited to PvP than only the one PvP version that is no fun PvE?
Either which way we are all in the same boat with regard to it all - so in a way everyones even.
Fiscally anyway. 
I am a casual player. Multi-builsd let me take the fun powers on a character plus let me have a leveling build that's more practical. Great for RP. Or let me have a human form and a dwarf/nova form PB/WS without having to level two.
[ QUOTE ]
Either which way we are all in the same boat with regard to it all - so in a way everyones even.
Fiscally anyway.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mother, that is incorrect and is the core of what I'm saying.
We're not equal at all. Those who can play for umpteen hours per day and are happy to endlessly farm have a distinct advantage over those of us who dont.
And there is a lot more of us than of them.
All of which is why this PvP campign they're setting out will fail and why I'm so fed up.
What sparked this off for me was my realisation that their insight is so limited they cant see that giving us dupe versions of chars and no dupe enhancemence is so counter productive to what they want to achieve in giving us this content in the first place.
It's made a great advancement for a very limited number of players and a frustration for the vast majority.
The whole key to making anything, never mind something as complex as PvP, popular is accessability.
And this just made it that little bit harder because the more advanced players will be able to create PvP perfect "monsters" and the rest of us will be even less likely to match them than before.
In a few months this game is gonna see its subs torn like never before. Them focusing on stuff like this while they should have been actually creating innovations to match the new games coming out is a big reason this games going to feel like a tornadoes been whooshing through it.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
I am a casual player. Multi-builsd let me take the fun powers on a character plus let me have a leveling build that's more practical. Great for RP. Or let me have a human form and a dwarf/nova form PB/WS without having to level two.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes but my point revolved around the fact that this issue was devoted primarily to PvP. I'm arguing that this whole thing from a PvP perspective will actually make it less popular than before.
The extention of the game wasting an entire issue on this, so close to CO coming out could be, to my mind, catastrophic.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
How has multibuild given farmers more of an advantage than they have now? They still will have more money than you, and they can still only use 1 build at a time in PvP. Don't multi-build, and you will only have to trick one toon out.
[ QUOTE ]
Mother, that is incorrect and is the core of what I'm saying.
We're not equal at all. Those who can play for umpteen hours per day and are happy to endlessly farm have a distinct advantage over those of us who dont.
[/ QUOTE ]
That will always be the way Lionsbane, in whatever MMO you play, in whatever class. They have to have scope to reward you whatever hours you put in - thats how they aim to hook you.
Anyway, just have fun with what we have at the moment in its current incarnation. It will do doubt be tweaked in response to all these criticisms here and state-side, And 'City of' is still the most 'pick-up 'n' playable' MMO out there.
It could be worse, It could be a grindfest like (you know) that other one.
Lions, sorry, haven't read through all of this thread, and don't have time to, right this moment.
One question: You mentioned taking an averagely slotted character up against a setted one. Was this on Test Server or last night after I13 went live?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
[ QUOTE ]
[...] that is incorrect and is the core of what I'm saying.
We're not equal at all. Those who can play for umpteen hours per day and are happy to endlessly farm have a distinct advantage over those of us who dont.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless they make IO perks completely ineffective in PvP (and from what I've read the I13 changes do make them less of an irresistible force) that has been the case and always will be the case.
If massive grinding can earn significant advantages and some people are prepared to do that, whether there's one build, two builds or ten builds available per toon the grinders will come out with the edge.
If we take that as a given, I can't see how the non-grinders having an extra build option will make a difference - to relative PvP performance - one way or another.
Outside of PvP some people will find it useful for other purposes, though.
[ QUOTE ]
What sparked this off for me was my realisation that their insight is so limited they cant see that giving us dupe versions of chars and no dupe enhancemence is so counter productive to what they want to achieve in giving us this content in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or perhaps they've seen something you haven't? Or are even looking in a different direction altogether?
Why immediately decide the disagreement must be down to their "limited insight" when there may be a whole range of other factors involved?
[ QUOTE ]
In a few months this game is gonna see its subs torn like never before. Them focusing on stuff like this while they should have been actually creating innovations to match the new games coming out is a big reason this games going to feel like a tornadoes been whooshing through it.
[/ QUOTE ]
You sure you don't want to reconsider that "I'm not a doomster" assertion?
[ QUOTE ]
It appears, Lionsbane, that you are the only one who doesn't like this. Your one arguement, that it is too hard to IO both builds, is easily outweighed by the numerous other reasons people like this. Added to the fact that you are more than welcome not to use it and only IO your one build, then you lose nothing except the benifit of having a build better suited to PvE that the PvP one you have.
Saying people would like both builds to be powered up, surely it's better to have 2 builds, one 'gimped' that is suited to PvE and one 'powered up' that is suited to PvP than only the one PvP version that is no fun PvE?
[/ QUOTE ]
I can only agree with this, I understand Lion having his issues with it but as Dig succinctly put, the dual build is an option you can use it if you want, I for one will be, not on every toon mind but for those that I would like to see with different options, now not all my toons are pvp, in fact only one is (see my previous post) the rest are purely for fun and multi teams etc, and thus only Warscythe has full IO's which I bought through inf earnt from teaming/tf's, not one cent farmed, so it is possible.
But again it comes down to the fact that if you choose to use it, then you can, if not then dont, I do see that folks like to max out their toons yes - but it doesnt ultimately require an uber expensive build to do so....as for the Pvp side...I freely admit that builds have a certain advantage over non IO sets, however a good IO build doesnt have to cost billions of inf for purps etc.
This is always going to be a fractured subject imho, but if its simply a question of the dual builds killing the game I really dont see how...its an option, like whether you choose to have 5 costume slots or just the 1...it has no bearing on the game other than to satisfy your personal needs, you take it or you dont....
Art of War Co-Leader - Union *Global@Warscythe*
"The box said Windows Vista or better - so I installed Linux"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My logic is not faulty at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
But by your own admission you're thick. Why trust the logic of someone like that.
/rimshot
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because he has it in his sig does not mean you can use it on the forums like that. Discuss the issue, not the person/people on the opposing side please.
[ QUOTE ]
What will happen is the large number of supposed players who the devs will want to attract to PvP will simply give it up because this actually makes it even harder (to the point of impossible for many people) to compete in the PvP theatre.
It's because if you cant begin to match the hard core players IOs in PvP you will lose interest entirely in it.
After all, when you realise that you are simply are going to be forever the loser and you cant change that because you will never get 500 millin inf (thats just for one version of your alt never mind two) you'kll end up giving up PvP entirely.
Maybe not you personally but the community that the devs are so anxious to try it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I lose to hardcore pvpers because they're better than me, not because they have more stuff...
I believe the only time loot will really make a difference is between players of equal skill. I think a good pvper with a cheap but well planned IO build is going to beat a newcomer with an expensive build most of the time. CoX pvp has serious problems, I'm not denying that, but I just don't agree that this is a very important part of those problems.
[ QUOTE ]
You sure you don't want to reconsider that "I'm not a doomster" assertion?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fact: There is one super hero game
Fact:Anyone who likes the idea of playing a super hero on an mmo comes here.
Fact:There are soon to be other super hero games
Fact: they will have the success and failures of this game to look at and learn from
Fact: On the face of it at least they will have: end game, crafting, abilty to pick and mix powers, better customisation, destructable enviroments etc etc
Fact:At least some of the people that pick up that game initially will come from here.
Fact: If word of mouth and reviews of those games are good there will be an almighty exodus from here.
Fact: This game has had the time to implement things to ensure minimal rather than maximum damage when that arrives.
Opinion: What it has put forward so far in terms of I13 and i14 is not even close to offering suffient numbers of current players a reason to stay here.
After all i14s name is mission architecht so, even if it offers other stuff, it doesnt take a genius to figure out where the thrust of that issue is coming from.
Seems to me all they've done of any significance is isolated a section of the very crowd they want to improve. And, Castle, who i've warned about before, did it in a very statesman esque way.
I was really encouraged at the begining of this year because it seemed to me that if NC has bought the franchise knowing competition was coming, that they had mighty plans to forestall it.
Maybe thats the case in which case- fantastic. I'm not riding my mortage on it though.
As it stands? Yes I suppose I now am. Sorry
Perhaps if someone could point to where the subs have gone up in real terms rather than down Ide hold my hands up and say I'm wrong.
And glad to be so.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: If word of mouth and reviews of those games are good there will be an almighty exodus from here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pure speculation. Other fantasy-cliche+grind games have had good reviews and word of mouth; where's the almighty exodus from World of Warcraft?
[ QUOTE ]
After all i14s name is mission architecht so, even if it offers other stuff, it doesnt take a genius to figure out where the thrust of that issue is coming from.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes... something that a fairly significant proportion of the playerbase has been absolutely crying out for. So why the doom?
[ QUOTE ]
Lions, sorry, haven't read through all of this thread, and don't have time to, right this moment.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One question: You mentioned taking an averagely slotted character up against a setted one. Was this on Test Server or last night after I13 went live?
[/ QUOTE ]
No it was prior to test.
Does it make a difference in the sense that sets make me way more powerful than non sets?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
Fact: If word of mouth and reviews of those games are good there will be an almighty exodus from here.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pure speculation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is it?
Well there are quite a number of us (me included) who applied for closed beta on the new game. Thats just from these boards.
[ QUOTE ]
After all i14s name is mission architecht so, even if it offers other stuff, it doesnt take a genius to figure out where the thrust of that issue is coming from.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes... something that a fairly significant proportion of the playerbase has been absolutely crying out for. So why the doom?
[/ QUOTE ]
How many people will use the architecht is debatable. We cant comment until we see its scope.
Personally I am not impressed by it long term because, while there is a novely appeal to playing a player created game, firstly it will still be same offices, same minions ,same luietenants and same bosses.
Secondly, if it is successful and brings in innovation then it poses the question: why the bloody hell arent the devs serving up that quality of missions now??
So, taking the assumption that the reason they arent is because the most it will give you is pretty much what we get right now, cept maybe you can turn left instead of right, and can add a contact or whatever in the mix, I cant get excited about it. But, in fairness, thats only my opinion.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
[ QUOTE ]
This totally excludes the casual player entirely, of whom the game is largely made up of. And withoit whom, PvP will never be popular.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that PvP requires heavy Setting of builds, then that will always exclude the casual player, and nothing they can do will ever change that.
[/ QUOTE ]
it never used to be like that.
And if its like that now, which it is, then they should either bloody well change it or accept PvP will never be the popular factor they want and have just wasted valuable months they could have dedicated elsewhere.
please bear in mind they have just alienated half or more of the PvP community with the power changes in the chase for the greater good.
[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, Dual builds means the casual player can have a build which they are slowly slotting out for PvP while keeping a build stocked with 'lesser' but perfectly adequate SOs which they use to obtain the cash needed to get the Set components.
Cut the DOOM, Lionsbane, your logic is faulty.
[/ QUOTE ]
What a let them eat cake philosopy that is.
My logic is not faulty at all. And I havent created the doom. They have.
I'm not the one who has shot the current powers on PvP to bits while trying to improve PvP for the wider masses.
And if there is a doom to my comments its because an almighty train is coming round the corner. As far as I'm concerned, while this one could defend itself, its almost in complete denial that a great deal of its player base plays because if they want to play a super hero game this is the only one in town.
That wont be the case soon.
And, with precious little time left, the PvP drive, which has constituted this issue has actually put this game back not forward. Or do you disagree with that assessment too?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...