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... vampires that are suddenly immune to absolutely everything. I ran into TWO in Pocket D in one night, and a couple more dimensional/demonic undead beasties. My priest, who is a human, armed with a gun, lots of holy ammunition and basic skills with holy flame, basically got bounced off the walls, as 'Oh look we're immune to holy light too and holy bullets dont work either.'...
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You're also forgetting that a lot of vampires state that the religious aspect is just superstition, because in order for it to affect them, it would have to actually be holy, rather than (in their eyes) just crazy men with 'special' water.
Does holy water and crucifixes really have power over undead or was it just a way of making the frightened and gulliable see them as powerful?...
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Sorry for lopping so much out of the quotes, but it was getting big 
This debate reminds me of an old Sylvester McCoy Doctor Who (The Curse of Fenris?) wherein the writers had the Doc postulate that the power of the icon over vampires had nothing to do with holy power but everything to do with profound faith and belief in philosophies that consequently lent great power to their advocates: hence the Russian officer keeping the vampires at bay with his Red Star badge and the priest falling victim to them because his bible and cross were useless when he himself had a crisis of faith.
Now I feel embarrassed, citing ancient Doctor Who storylines to illustrate the power of philosophical codes on the human psyche. Someone point me in the direction of the nearest Geek Asylum? 
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Someone point me in the direction of the nearest Geek Asylum?
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You're already here mate. Pull up a mat!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Pocket D is kind of a tricky one really. The game canon tells us that there can be no fighting there, but just how do you stop it? Sure there could be some kinda of technomagical field that prevents use of powers (also non-offensive abilities work), but how does it stop you smacking someone in the mouth?
Personally, I allow physical contact such as punches or kicks; but disallow powers use. Makes more logical sense to me as otherwise, if physical contact were prevented, then why would you even go to a nightclub?
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It does allow it.
After all the barman does tell you the chalk outline on the wall is from BAB punching some one, of course then we'd get down to arguing what exactly is allowed or not and no one would agree.
It'd be like Civil War, except not caused by Skrulls.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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The barman does tell you the chalk outline on the wall is from BAB punching some one.
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Yeah, this is an example of ingame text countering ingame canon.
Personally, I take it to mean that it was a clear point to prove that the prevention bit had to be put in place. Or it's a lie to add 'atmosphere' to the club.
Who says the NPC Bartender is telling the truth?
I assume the various other sources say more then this one counter source.
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
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...After all the barman does tell you the chalk outline on the wall is from BAB punching some one...
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doesn't the barman just say something like; "The chalk outlines? That's from when BAB had a few too many drinks?" He doesn't actually say BAB smacked anyone. It could mean BAB got drunk and started drawing portraits of his friends on the wall and floor... or it could be one of those "No More Hiroshimas" campaigns. In any event, it's deliberately vague and I don't think it means BAB beat anyone to death in a psychotic drunken episode. For a start that's unarguably unheroic behaviour. I think BAB is considerably more than some Smirnoff-chugging dimwit. I go with the "barman trying to create atmosphere and mythology" notion. A bit like those pubs where the landlord has a photo of the Kray twins behind the bar.
It was late...-fill in excuse here-
D is *always* a toughy, again with the conflicts issue. To be fair to you two, yes it wasnt too bad. And, admittedly, I am still working out the kinks in Xaviers character (which I think Im getting now. Less angry, more cold watsit 
)
Butcha, it gets very easy where, if some things dont seem to work, and you've run into one to many godmoders in your time (dont ask...) then, well, prejudice aint just what a priest has for them
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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...After all the barman does tell you the chalk outline on the wall is from BAB punching some one...
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doesn't the barman just say something like; "The chalk outlines? That's from when BAB had a few too many drinks?" He doesn't actually say BAB smacked anyone. It could mean BAB got drunk and started drawing portraits of his friends on the wall and floor... or it could be one of those "No More Hiroshimas" campaigns. In any event, it's deliberately vague and I don't think it means BAB beat anyone to death in a psychotic drunken episode. For a start that's unarguably unheroic behaviour. I think BAB is considerably more than some Smirnoff-chugging dimwit. I go with the "barman trying to create atmosphere and mythology" notion. A bit like those pubs where the landlord has a photo of the Kray twins behind the bar.
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He looks more the Stella drinker if you ask me, and you can't trust those guys.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Regarding D's, I've reasoned that Zero creates an overlapping dimension for each patron as they enter, that allows interaction with other people, but prevents any harmful contact. What this means is that, if two chars shake hands, they shake hands. But if one tries to stab another, the attack passes right through the victim's body without effect. For me, the interwoven dimensions created take all Zero's concentration, or a significant portion of it, which is why he never comes down from floating over his speaker.
I've no idea what the general roleplaying community thinks of this, but the few people I've given my theory to have taken it as a feasible explanation and have accepted it. Out of curiosity, what do the rest of you think?
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I actually quite like that idea. It ties in nicely with Zero's dimensional portal ability. Although I would reason that the club itself is a focus point for Zero's power, allowing him to produce these multiple subdimensions without significant effort on his part. That way he can float there all day without rest.
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This I agree with, it seems decent enough. It works that's for sure. But the focus point may not be that powerful, but it definatly helps....
[Union Roleplayers]Kiken: Tick the off in your Observer Book of Lesbians
[Union Roleplayers]Nitro v. IV: we need a perma-man feature
[Union Roleplayers]Nitro v. IV: I'd trust you more if you did it in front of me
Gotta love dem dere RolePlayers
Occasional roleplayer here, just throwing in my 0.02 inf..
I think of the official canon as a half-finished painting - sure, some details are there, but there's so much white space that can be used without erasing the previous work.
(huh, I actually created an analogy that made sense! amazing )
Also, I saw someone's bio say they owned Crey Corp, which incensed me so much I actually ragequitted.
~union4lyfe~
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Occasional roleplayer here, just throwing in my 0.02 inf..
I think of the official canon as a half-finished painting - sure, some details are there, but there's so much white space that can be used without erasing the previous work.
(huh, I actually created an analogy that made sense! amazing )
Also, I saw someone's bio say they owned Crey Corp, which incensed me so much I actually ragequitted.
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Yeah, anything like that makes me flip especially people with names like 'Son of Recluse' or some such guff. I mean, would Recluse actually do that? Technically he's immortal, so hes hardly going to try and create someone else with his level of power.
Basically anything that gives players an unrealistic ammount of power. Or, at least, *all the time*. For example, one person I know does have a character that can become godly powerful. But they are very, *very* careful on how they use it, speciffically for story use most of the time. Anything that is done with skill and consideration is good. Badly thought out and badly played means that its doomed
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'll admit breaking the power level of the system does bug me. The Freedom Phalanx are meant to be the worlds première heroes and none of them are world shatteringly powerful, it can be a big lame to realise that playing it straight makes your character a bit of a lead weight (Or at best a spectator) in RP. Being able to project fire or wield a magic sword is pretty useless when your teammates can beat a whole host of enemies with a merely a sideways thought.
And don't get me started on people playing blasters/controllers/whatever and being IC claimed as far tougher than even a top level Tank!
yeah, i do that too, i would really have liked to pick super strength and then had MA attacks powered by said super strength.
Pocket D for me I always thought of in the same way as the train station from Matrix Revolutions. There's no actual inability to fight each other, but it's Zeros personal little dimension, his power is supreme in it because it's all his, and he'll slap you silly if you start trying to fight each other in there. EDIT: Or more likely he'll eject you from it back into 'reality', probably at a speed high enough to hurt.
As to the canon, I also use the Freedom Phalanx, or more especially Statesman, as a bar for the abilities of our heroes. It's simple, at the very best your character might possibly manage to go toe to toe with Statesman, and certainly not easily. You are essentially the same power level as he is. More commonly, he will turn you into a greasy smear so fast you'll wonder why you bothered turning up. I find the idea of trying to talk yourself up like that in this game to be utterly laughable, if I were roleplaying my characters would be constantly laughing in the boastful face of such a person, and throwing out sarcastic comments about their supposed mighty abilities. I'd expect to recieve a lot of this with Khorak, who is a boastful barbarian by nature, and only notices defeats with irritable comments on being sucker punched or vowing never to go into battle drunk again. We all know better of course.
At the most I like to give my characters certain specialties, such as Carnal Sin being, as she claims of her time there before moving to Paragon City, "The fastest flier on the Rogue Isles", which I try to represent in game by slotting her Fly and Hover for speed and picking up a fair few movement speed increases from set bonuses. Sometimes I wonder if anyone else has put two extra slots in Fly to max out their speediness.
I actually encountered this 'God Modding' as you've all been putting it, a long time ago on the forums. Someone made a thread asking how powerful our heroes really are, especially compared to Marvel and DC counterparts. My response? Not very, especially based on the direct canon evidence of heroes having actually been tested in World War II and getting mashed up in open combat, and the most powerful single hero on the planet being downed by a tactical nuke (which hit a fast moving flying target, thus not big). We're Spidermen and Wolverines. We can change the world but not by being unstoppable titans of strength and power. Of course, this was contested by a lot of people whose characters had various absurd reasonings why they hadn't alternatively destroyed the planet or cured humanity of all its ills with their deific magnificence.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
They're fairly powerful compared to Marvel (Sure there's a few like Thor and Dr Strange, but for the most part Marvel Heroes are a bit below CoH characters) but not DC i'd say as DC has a lot stronger heroes.
Come to think of it, I wonder if people who claim the more powerful heroes prefer DC to Marvel and vice versa. Just an idle thought.
I wouldn't say we're a bit below them, I'd say we're largely the same, but with a frankly lunatic number of us (and lacking the random Thors, Hulks and having to make sure our most powerful hero is a neurotic freak so we can exclude him from easily mashing our latest plotline in five seconds flat). I'd love to see the Skrulls try to pre-emptively neutralise us lot. We've probably got more heroes in Paragon City alone than marvel has on the whole planet.
It's the sheer amount of us. Compared to the classic comicbook template, the CoX universe is a non-stop warzone. Just the other day I broke up an all out open war between the Council and Nemesis Army complete with a surprising and very grim dearth of civilian bodybags and poor policemen who had tried to defend them. I relaxed by getting involved in an area cordoned off due to another entirely unrelated total war with an extra-dimensional invasion force in the middle of the city, and then later considered stalking Golden Girl through the ruined future timestream of Atlas Park where, you guessed it, some sort of immense temporal war is taking place.
Skrull Invasion? Please. That's a Halloween event, at worst.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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The Freedom Phalanx are meant to be the worlds première heroes and none of them are world shatteringly powerfu
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The in game storyline sets you up to supplant them, from Task Forces of doing their dirty work or being the only person who can help out, to pulling various heroes [censored] out of the fire and doing supar speshul stoof that only YOU CAN DO.
The FP are so old guard :P
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The FP are so old guard :P
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And yet each one will, one on one, smash you to pieces.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
One of Ed's old claims is that he went 'toe to toe' with Statesman.
Mind you that claim is followed up by, "I saw a fist coming towards me, I blacked out and woke up in the Recluse's victory Arachnos mediports..." This coming from an incident where I was flying around RV at night without pets and accidently aggroed the RV Statesman who proceeded to one shot me but for a split second, I was toe to toe with him.
The question is, how do we guage power because certain sets and ATs are far more powerful at taking on the big hitter targets than others.
Rad/Sonic is known for being an AV killer (though having craptastic AoE capabilities). Does that make any Rad/Sonic simply more powerful than any other hero?
Edward and another Mastermind with the help of some heavies managed to duo all but the Statesman in RV and almost solo'd BaB in RV (was very close, he managed to destroy my heavy before it could get the final hit on him) does that make Edward a match for most of the Freedom Phalanx when going one on one...probably not.
Edward did use to boast about the number of heroes he had defeated but they were all EB level so does that count or do we say they were holding back some of their power since it was only one lone criminal and they were feeling particularly cocky that day?
On the subject with player canon I always find saying 'defeated' in the traditional comicbook sense (they will be back to fight another day) is fine, after all most comic book villains will flee and lick their wounds only to pop back up later, the same with heroes (though there's involves some kind of deep heartfelt thought or chat with one of their friends, a training montage and them going back out to defeat the villain).
As pointed out earlier to say you 'killed' someone is a big no-no, the only time you can have claimed to killed anyone is generic enemies since they're all alike.
I do agree with the fact that Paragon has so many heroes that any kind of Marvel style threat (skrull invasion = Rikti Invasion, Galactacus would last ten minutes until people got enough rad/* defenders and controllers to drop his resistance to nothing and get him pounded) would be beaten down quickly.
Overall we ARE more powerful (at higher levels) than Spidermans of the Marvel world because the most they have to deal with on a normal (non-super powered villain around) day is thugs and bank robbers.
Paragon City heroes however have to deal with:
a) Ongoing second alien invasion.
b) A group of women who can drain souls.
c) A black ops group with GIANT FREAKING ROBOTS WITH LASERS!
d) Italian superpowered Faschists.
e) Highly powerful wizards and their demon friends.
And that would be just after breakfast...
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
I usually weigh in on these threads pretty early on (heck, I usually seem to cause them), but I thought I'd wait for everyone to have a say before I leapt into the fray.
The thing is, there are two types of 'Official' canon.
There's 'Story canon', which is things like "Statesman and Lord Recluse are the most powerful super-beings in the world" and "Sister Psyche is one of, if not the, most powerful psychics in the world".
Then there's 'Game-mechanic canon', which has some really weird stuff in it, like... "A Tsoo who accidentally spawns in Galaxy City would beat the ever-living hell out of any hero in the zone's level range, but still not be able to wrestle a handbag off a granny", and "My character can defeat Tyrant single-handedly, because he's only an EB as long as I don't have my rep set to Invincible, in which case, chances are I'm a grease-stain on the floor". Other game-mechanic canon, though, is actually useful, because it covers things like the powers and abilities of enemy types. Some Freakshow can self-rez, for example.
The problem comes when people say that 'Game-mechanic canon AND story canon must be taken into account at all times'.
Balls.
We're here trying to tell interesting stories, and things that flat-out interfere with our ability to do so can be... allowed to slide a bit.
There is an heirarchy of canon, IMO, and mathematically it could be expressed as follows:
Story canon > Player canon > Game-mechanic canon
The official story of CoH is what we have to work around - the history of Paragon City is 'real', and should be treated as real by player characters.
Then comes the stuff we make up - if I want my character to be able to travel at the speed of light (or close to it, as long as he's not in atmosphere), then I can do that. Provided that I don't break the core story (and really, the only biggie here is as long as I don't make my character more powerful than Statesman or Lord Recluse - even if I can defeat them game-mechanic-wise - then I'm pretty much okay) there's nothing wrong with any storyline or plot device I attempt to use.
Lastly, and least, is the in-game restrictions. Shadowe can't travel at a sizeable fraction of the speed of light, because the game restricts him to less than 100 mph. I can ignore this, for the purpose of story. Shadowe can defeat an EB Lord Recluse - I can fudge this by saying that I got in a few lucky blows and forced him to retreat, because, thanks to Story-canon, I know that Shad isn't more powerful than Lord Recluse. We give a nod to game-mechanics, but it's not important. The story we create in this shared world is important. Further, there's nothing actually wrong with creating a character more powerful than the story and game-mechanics allow (Shadowe is one of them, and I know it), provided that there is a rational reason that the character doesn't at least appear to fit within the story restrictions. Case in point, then: Shadowe. At the end of the day, he's insanely powerful. I am well aware of this. He can destroy the world, if he wants to. There's only a few things that could stop him, really (yes, I know what they are), but I've consciously limited him. While his theoretical maximum power is vastly in excess of any of the official characters, he is restricted by his wish to be more human. This is an artificial limitation set by me to explain why although he is more powerful than Statesman or Lord Recluse, he can't access the upper limits of his powers, because if he were to do so, he would lose his humanity, which is something that he, as a character, does not want to do.
Now, there are some huge gaps in the official story, and that's great, because it allows us to make more stuff up. But there are some inviolable 'facts' that we should all attempt to live with, such as the oft-mentioned 'Power cap' at Statesman/Lord Recluse levels, where the City Zones are, and so forth.
If we all suspend our disbelief, and accept the official story, and attempt to avoid breaking that, and give at least a nod toward the game-mechanics, then any player-canon we create can be accepted by the majority - it becomes a case that there's a problem only when we contradict each other.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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If we all suspend our disbelief, and accept the official story, and attempt to avoid breaking that, and give at least a nod toward the game-mechanics, then any player-canon we create can be accepted by the majority - it becomes a case that there's a problem only when we contradict each other.
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So, pretty much all the time then.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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There's only a few things that could stop him, really (yes, I know what they are)
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An insanely powerful gravity controller, perhaps?
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
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There's only a few things that could stop him, really (yes, I know what they are)
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An insanely powerful gravity controller, perhaps?
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Naah. She's dead.
Easiest way to stop Richard is to throw a naked woman at him.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
A naked insanely powerful grav controller would work... trust me
But actually, yes, Jess is one of the things that would be capable of stopping him, and not particularly because she's a grav troller. It's something a little more fundamental than that.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
The only reason it bugs me is because when IC plot runs, unless you're at said characters power level (Or we do it as a mission instead of a free-form) your a bit useless.
Fans feels a bit like Aquaman when she goes along with people like this! (And not the badass JLU on) Being fairly tough and able to set things on fire with a touch is pretty pathetic in comparison to being able to beat most things in one hit with amazing ranged powers, while also being far tougher, quicker and smarter than Fans herself. What's crazier is if you can't beat it in one hit, then I've go no chance at all!
So the threats ever become laughably easy to beat or determinedly impossible for my characters to have much effect on relegating me to the good ol' cheer leading squad.
It's actually why i'm starting to prefer IC missions to actually be done on maps with mobs in than freeform. At least then I seem to actually be helping!
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now how often do you get the ceo's of MS IBM and Intel in one location for a off duty chat ..
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For the record, Infinitron was a hero first (actually a villain first, but thats a moot point) and then Infinicorp. formed. Also its not a massive company, a small company whos profits feed back into R&D and charitable work. Joseph Infinus wouldn't be considered rich (in a Bruce Wayne sense).