[ QUOTE ]
Story canon > Player canon > Game-mechanic canon
[/ QUOTE ]
This^
Also It actually irks me to hear game-mechanic terms ic. The "class" thing can be passed off as bureaucratic pigeon-holing for the licence, but mention of security level is the big one. There are so many factors that tend to make the SL void when RPing, that it can break immersion for me to hear, especially as some form of gauge of power.
Side kicking for example allows a level 1 to become more powerful than say... a level 30 as long as a level 50 is there to give tips!
[ QUOTE ]
I'll invite you to the warzone in an 8 man group and watch you solo it, then why you die, I'll KNOW you're nuts.
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not mention the characters that -can- survive and defeat these spawns then. 
Because they can. I don't have one, but all those people who get fillers in to boost their spawn numbers and then take them on solo?
Yeah, those guys.
And level 50 isn't really that valid to compare between characters. A level 50 TA/Archery is no where near as powerful as a Level 50 Fire/Energy Blaster, and as mentioned, the whole security level/sidekick thing then blows that out of the water.
Actually... Security level is a totally valid RP concept. I think you're getting mixed up with power level, a separate entity. Your SL is a measure of the trust the city puts in you. Your CL is a measure of your overall strength. Both can be used quite easily in RP, but SL being the far more useful one.
Ellie, for example, is partly an energy being, and is able to "see" a persons bio-electrical signature (or aura - Kirlian photography sort thing), and from that make a reasonable estimation of a persons strength. Of course, if they're suppressing it, then she'll make a false judgement, but generally she gets it fairly close. Of course, I make no claims that all Kheldians can do this; after all, Ellie's unique in that she's a mix of three lifeforms, so perhaps it's a side effect of that? 
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
If you claim to be so powerful that you could wipe out scores of Rikti in a thought, I'll invite you to the warzone in an 8 man group and watch you solo it
[/ QUOTE ]
I did that with a 7 man team while the others where elsewhere. IC that fits.
I also duoed the Lady Grey TF with a sidekick, up to and including beating the weakened hammidon. IC that shouldn't be possible.
The argument "prove it" does not always work.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, game/story cannon is way more important than player canon, to the point where player canon should be built WITHIN it. I also hate over-powered heroes. As soon as somebody makes a claim of power beyond what you SHOULD be able to do as a level 50 toon I IC assume mental instability. If you're strong enough to single handedly destroy the world (or say you are) My chars assume you're nuts. If you have the power to affect my powers against my wish (or claim to) you're nuts. If you claim to be so powerful that you could wipe out scores of Rikti in a thought, I'll invite you to the warzone in an 8 man group and watch you solo it, then why you die, I'll KNOW you're nuts. Simply put, make a character with powers WITHIN the constraints of the actual game. (Passive/none-huge game affecting powers notwithstanding as the odd bit of mind-reading etc isn't NECCESSARILY out of question.) To all of those who create uber/godly/way-over-the-top-just-designed-to-take-the-limelight-because-you-aren't-creative-enough-to-be-equal heroes who then add "limitations" to explain them, I'll ask this question. "Why bother with all that when you could just create a toon without the powers or the limitations, and you'd have what you have now without all the nonsense fluff that makes my toon think you need psychiatric help?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that almost struck me as a personal attack. I know it wasn't, so I'm not going to treat it as one.
To take the things you describe, though - Theoretically my main could destroy the world with a thought. I know it. Other people who RP with him know it. The potential is there, but yes, we have to operate within the constraints given by the game engine when we try to do things IC utilising the game engine, so I (though I am not alone - FFM, ShadowGhost, Ravenswing, Zortel and many more players have what might be described as overpowered characters) have an obligation to have an explanation why it doesn't happen that way.
So, Dicky-boy (as Shadowe is affectionately known) can be dragged to the RWZ, stuck on an 8-man team running at Invincible, and will NOT be able to solo the spawns. There's a good IC reason for it. I don't feel any particular obligation to explain what it is, but the explanation does exist, and is utterly consistent with the character's history, motivation and feelings.
Some of the best stories around come out of characters like this - those who are powerful enough to do almost anything they want, but if they do it will betray what it is that makes them a hero.
You won't see Richard brag about what he can do. He's ashamed of it. You won't see him claim to be able to destroy the world. It scares the hell out of him, and he doesn't want to do it by accident. What you will see is a man, confident in his power and ability (he is, after all, a L50 hero), driven to help people as best he can, and trying to find his particular place in the world. That's the story. That's part of what makes him a compelling character to me. If he 'just had the powers of a L50 hero', it would detract from a lot of that, and I don't want to retcon him to such an extent that I effectively screw over what made him become a hero in the first place.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.* And it also makes secret identities hell. Azure Arrow uses a moulded suit to make him look a bit more different physically to his alter ego, covers his face, puts on a different voice, uses a different kind of aftershave to mask his scent and even puts on a different attitude and walk, and all it will take is someone with that kind of ability to see him and Shay Bennet to point out that they're one in the same.
[ QUOTE ]
Actually... Security level is a totally valid RP concept. I think you're getting mixed up with power level, a separate entity. Your SL is a measure of the trust the city puts in you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've heard them used interchangeably, which is the annoyance.
SL is what keeps you out of the RWZ at sl2.
We do not (or at least most of us do not) explode in a flash of light and suddenly become more powerful when city hall pages us that our SL has increased.
[ QUOTE ]
And it also makes secret identities hell. Azure Arrow uses a moulded suit to make him look a bit more different physically to his alter ego, covers his face, puts on a different voice, uses a different kind of aftershave to mask his scent and even puts on a different attitude and walk, and all it will take is someone with that kind of ability to see him and Shay Bennet to point out that they're one in the same.
[/ QUOTE ]
Remember when Ellie accidentally called Nevermore by his real name at GG? A few days later, he was wearing a pheremone masking device.
Yes, for many people she DOES know their ID's if she's met both, though scent is a far better key for her than a persons aura as she has to concentrate to see that, it's not an "always on" ability, unlike her nose.
These days, though, she's discrete enough to not actually TELL anyone that she nows their secret...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Funnily, Toxic Widow my Thugs/Poison has beaten practically every AV villain you can face on CoV all by her lonesome including all of the ones in Recluse's victory and Recluse himself (Even Biff!). She's also a pretty mean demon in PvP, i've beaten 3 Spine/Regen scrappers at the same time solo and can even take Heroes who have an AV suit as back up! (Or could, I think i'd need to update to IO's before I try this again!)
Yet IC i've always said she's not all that powerful, she certainly wouldn't have been able to do most of that!
As a niggle, wouldn't a single psychic be able to spot Azure Arrow?
Someone once did that IC on a team I was on. It made my pockets hurt. And why do we have to visit trainers to get a new power? What can Back Alley Brawler teach Fusebox about throwing lightning about? He's a guy who hits things, and he's retired now so he doesn't really do that much!
Learning a power, going to a trainer and saying "Hey, look what I can do, I kick [censored], boost my security level a little please?" Would make a bit more sense. Having 50 security levels as it is seems a little redundant, how about SL 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, with .x's for all up to 5?
Official Canon is the bare-bone structural framework of the CoX universe... but Player-Canon is where the heart is and is what keeps me Reporting for Duty. 
I get way more of a buzz from seeing a Veteran Hero/Villain that I recognise still going strong than I ever did from seeing the Signature Heroes/Villains/AVs, and I enjoy reading the bios and their take on how their character is woven into the CoX universe.
Actually Horizon does ding IC. Her bracers absorb a little knowledge and experience from people she fights (Knowledgfe being power after all!) and give off an audible dinging sound when they've pieced together enough to weave and pass a new enchantment to Horizon's body.
A lot of effort just to make some bad puns, but worth it!
[ QUOTE ]
As a niggle, wouldn't a single psychic be able to spot Azure Arrow?
[/ QUOTE ] That too. He tries to do some mental training stuff to make it harder, but easily breakable.
It's one of the reasons why Zortel has a psychic intrusion barrier wired into her brain. She doesn't want people prying about in there. Given the prevalence of psychics, rightly so. (Okay, I have one too, but he's also a Psychologist in training, so all those ethical rules of consent have been drummed into him, and even if it was OMG ESSENTIAL that he broke them to save someone, he would still be -very- reluctant to.)
See, this is another place where 'Game-mechanic canon' should take a back-seat to Story and Player canon.
The artificial level-based advancement of CoX does not follow the trends of comic-book heroes, who tend to have 'their powers' and that's it. The rare few who have an 'omni' or 'variable' power (as they tend to be described in PnP RPGs) tend to have a single schtick that they use.
So, any given existing comic-book hero will usually have a small array of abilities, perhaps learning new uses for them over time, but rarely to the extent we see in CoX.
This part of the discussion is one I've had many times in the past - If I want to create a L1 version of Richard, does he suddenly becomes a huge amount weaker than the L50 version of him? Of course not! But in-game he is. Since that's impossible to justify, I simply state that Player Canon > Game-Mechanic Canon, and any problem is solved - and I can prove that Shadowe is more powerful than a L1, because I can drag out my L50 version any time I like.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
I like to tie my IC powers to powers I have and I take hold resistance to be protection from invasive things like that (It's my system, i'm not saying this is the right way!)
It does mean the only character who doesn't have it to any real extent is Emily One. But she's got things to figure out who'd doing it and will not be best pleased!
How does a level 1 enemy with a pistol differ to a level 50 with a pistol? Are they better shots, different bullets, some strange quantum effect that means a level 25 being shot by a level 1 with a pistol will take minimal if any damage even if they're a normal human with a bow, standing still, while a level 50 will leave them bleeding on the floor?
Also: Fans, with that it means that in order to be able to resist mind-raep I'd have to have Zortel take three powers (Combat Jumping, Super Jump and Acrobatics) which doesn't make any sense.
... How does Number Nine or ADAOS get held by psychics?! They're frickin Robots with computer brains! How does a mind probe cause them damage, they have no mind! How can a Fire tanker/blaster/scrapper still take damage from fire if it's their natural ability to throw/use it? Is it the 'Wrong Kind of Fire'? Cindersnap lobs bolts of fire from his hands and even stands in his own flames, but the fire from someone else can have him rolling about on fire with no way to control or prevent it?!
Another place where game mechanics should be ignored... Damage scaling over level ranges just... doesn't work ICly... It's the one thing that kinda makes me wish all mobs used Rikti invasion code...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Well Malta Pistols (The only ones with them at 50 that I can recall) do have different Ammo! Cryo Bullets, incendiary and so on as well as being near the top range on weapons systems!
Meanwhile low level pistols seems to be snub nosed revolvers. Which you would be lucky to kill normal people with.
I'd say they're better shots, more experienced (Shoot them in the weakspots!) and equipped with finer weapons. The difference between a generic mook and John Preston
[ QUOTE ]
How does a level 1 enemy with a pistol differ to a level 50 with a pistol? Are they better shots, different bullets, some strange quantum effect that means a level 25 being shot by a level 1 with a pistol will take minimal if any damage even if they're a normal human with a bow, standing still, while a level 50 will leave them bleeding on the floor?
[/ QUOTE ]
And this is why I say that Player Canon > Game-mechanic Canon
There is NO good reason for this. There is NO good reason that a Tsoo warrior can annihilate a L1 character, but a L50 hero can do the reverse in the blink of an eye. An AK47 is an AK47, and will cause the same trauma to a single person, yet a L50 enemy with one does more damage than a L1 enemy. You can say something about the skill of the person firing the gun, but you can only take that so far.
If I want a Hellion to get a shot off at Richard, and hurt him, then it WILL hurt. Just the same as if he'd been shot by a L50 enemy. The story WINS over game-mechanics EVERY TIME.
And this is the biggest problem I've had with the M&M project, too. But I've solved it.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
It's a conspiracy. The US government is covertly training us all for war. The rikti, hellions, trolls, malta... they're all cia operatives playing a role.
When they implant your medi-port chip with your licence, what they're really doing is implanting a receiver, which causes pain or paralysis depending on the projector device fired at it.
PROJECTOR DEVICES THESE MOBS (cia operatives) HAVE BEEN GIVEN!
they effect you differently depending on a signature code in the "weapon", giving a scale of "danger" up to a "level" they consider you to be at the peak of the training.
Just you wait and see, one day they will orchestrate a terrorist attack from the planet Puppulon, and we'll be tricked into war!
(opinions stated within may be the product of a deranged mind, detached from reality)
[ QUOTE ]
Also: Fans, with that it means that in order to be able to resist mind-raep I'd have to have Zortel take three powers (Combat Jumping, Super Jump and Acrobatics) which doesn't make any sense.
[/ QUOTE ]
I said it worked for me! I don't try impose it on other characters as it wouldn't work.
I allow Blaster a little wiggle room myself, due to Defiance but it'll never be complete immunity. Also a blaster with Psi Manipulation i'd allow myself to have it because it'd make sense thematically!
Zortel's a fricking scientest in a power suit that can take on aliens by the invasion load, and she gets foiled by a simple piece of military ordinance like a Flashbang from the Malta, leaving her staggering around for 30 seconds?! She could use sunglasses and earmuffs, but it'll have no effect!
How does someone punch a burning man without getting damaged? How on earth to blade attacks work on ghost? They're ghosts! How come we can't phase out and attack while others can? How come we can't phase out to how others are to attack them while the battle rages on in the real plane, uneffected by their struggles?
How can some guy with a sword and good luck be allowed into a zone while the energy flinging Sidekick of Captain Amazing can't be allowed in with his mentor? Why does a Talsorian blade make the same sound as a metal sword? How come someone can't punch when they use martial arts? How on earth does Endurance effect someone with a gun. They use up all their bullets, but then can't punch someone with glowing hands or make a fire sword or fly? This isn't Perfect Dark where a gun can consume ammo to make you invisible!
RAAAAAARGH, NERD RAGE!
[ QUOTE ]
There is NO good reason for this. There is NO good reason that a Tsoo warrior can annihilate a L1 character, but a L50 hero can do the reverse in the blink of an eye. An AK47 is an AK47, and will cause the same trauma to a single person, yet a L50 enemy with one does more damage than a L1 enemy. You can say something about the skill of the person firing the gun, but you can only take that so far.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Punisher would disagree! He's the model of a level 50 AR Blaster, he's used them to take down some pretty big names after all that normal mooks with AK's wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance.
Although as said, I like to think everyone is roughly the same level range wise. (Rikti invasions after all are the great equalizer and pass by GG a lot!)
Personally, game/story cannon is way more important than player canon, to the point where player canon should be built WITHIN it. I also hate over-powered heroes. As soon as somebody makes a claim of power beyond what you SHOULD be able to do as a level 50 toon I IC assume mental instability. If you're strong enough to single handedly destroy the world (or say you are) My chars assume you're nuts. If you have the power to affect my powers against my wish (or claim to) you're nuts. If you claim to be so powerful that you could wipe out scores of Rikti in a thought, I'll invite you to the warzone in an 8 man group and watch you solo it, then why you die, I'll KNOW you're nuts. Simply put, make a character with powers WITHIN the constraints of the actual game. (Passive/none-huge game affecting powers notwithstanding as the odd bit of mind-reading etc isn't NECCESSARILY out of question.) To all of those who create uber/godly/way-over-the-top-just-designed-to-take-the-limelight-because-you-aren't-creative-enough-to-be-equal heroes who then add "limitations" to explain them, I'll ask this question. "Why bother with all that when you could just create a toon without the powers or the limitations, and you'd have what you have now without all the nonsense fluff that makes my toon think you need psychiatric help?"