Theft from SG.. Tale of Woe

Invincible_Atlas · 08-04-2008 06:10 PM

To be honest I don't really see the point of what this is meant to achieve, but Customer Support suggested I post the situation here at the forums and what was done i.e thier responses or in this case, wasnt done.

So here is the situation...

During the course of usual play I became friends with a new player, he was new to the game (less than a month) and was in every way what people would commonly refer to as a noob. However, he expressed a great deal of enthusiasm and as I have often done in the past I took it upon myself to include him in activites in the game, make him feel welcome and involved, explained the game and its various facets and intricacies, helped him out with funds, recipes, enhancements etc.. and basically spent the best part of a month (every single day) helping this guy and later hsi girlfried who started playing out also.

During this time he and later his girlfriend asked to join my SG I signed him up and gave him a rank which was above normal but had few actual priveliges. He on a couple of occasions expressed a desire to have more responsibilities.. indeed he wanted carte blanche access to all aspects of the SG but I explained to him I had only known him a short while and although I appreciated his enthusiasm I would not give him total access.. I did however give him a little more he could do, though nothing that could potentially wreck the SG if for some reason he took it upon himself to do such a thing, which he seemd at the time very unlikely to do.

At any rate he seemed happy and stopped asking for more control after our chat. and things continued happily as ever. In due course of me introducing him to things I introduced him to the Villains side of the game, which as It happens I also have an SG on albeit less aged and developed than the one on the hero side of things, so there was less to lose if things went pear shaped.

As he seemed to take much more to the Villains side of the game than he had the hero side and started spending most of his time there, I re-arranged the structure of the "SG" ranks and priveliges on the villains side of things so he could have a lot more control and responsibility in things (again trying to help him and so he could experience more of the game).. indeed on that side of the equation the only things he couldnt do was increase a rank of another member above his own, kick people from the "SG"m modify the base and change the main components of the SG (description, logo etc..). As part of his new responsibilities he could however access th 2 base Salavage Racks. An area all members of the SG could access and place things (wasnt really any point limiting access to it on the villains side before, as the SG had only me and my alts in it and as I didnt play villains much compared to heroes initially there wasnt a lot in the racks). However, he and his girlfriend were playing on villains all the time ao I paid out some of my own real £££ to transfer a couple of my villains over from one server to the one they were on who had a lot of salvage on them to put in the racks that would be used later to improve the base and thereby provide more facilities for us all to use.

I didnt do this immediately, I waited three weeks during which I was talking, and playing every day for considerable periods with him and his girlfriend and felt they were trustworthy enough that I would feel comfortable putting stuff in the racks without undue fear of them taking it, they understood it was used only for improving the base and as such it was in thier best interests to leae things in storage. He even contributed some items to this himself albeit a tiny amount being so new and all.

Then I logged off one night in the early hours as usual and went to sleep...

Logging n the next night I sent him a tell again to say Evning, and got no response, I didnt think too much of it as he had had troubles with his ability to chat in the game before (The chatban duration bug). So after a while I sent him another tell... this time however the message came up telling me I was being globally ignored??? Confused and suddenly feeling the bottom drop out of my stomach, I logged across to villans.. maybe it was a communication problem in the game? Once on the other side of the game however, I saw instantly that both he and his girlfriend had left the SG. At this point I was getting a horrible feeling, I knew what was coming, I entered the SG Base and indeed the contents of it had been ransacked and as much as his character could carry was taken the salavage racks had been robbed of around 350ish items that had take me and my alts months to gather on my own (remember the Sg was essentially just me and my alts before that time).

I immediately reported it to the Customer Support people, who later responded asking me to send them a list of what was taken along with the time, date etc.. and any screenshots, all of which was very easily provided (except screenshots, for some reason salvage rack logs dont appear in screenshots), but they could enter and see for themselves so wasn really an issue as far as proving the theft went.

Something the thief in his Noobish'ness didnt realise is that anything put in or taken out of the SG is listed on a storage log that shows the exact time, date and what was put in or taken out. So this information was quickly sent to the support staff who assured me the issue would be looked into.

However this is when problems started..

Over the ourse of the next few days however, nothing happened, I could (and still can) still see when him and his girlfriend were online playing as usual. I had another friend in the game send him a tell to let him know his theft had been reported at which point he took me off ignore briefly and tried to act surprised and deny, and avoid the topic of his theft (of course he didnt know I had the logs proving it) he then tried to make out like I had offended him though couldnt quite tell me how despite my numerous attempts to find out. And even if we had had a falling out, which NEVER ever happened it would not justify his theft. Worse still he was smug in his action convinced that the company in question would be more interested in his subscription fees than doing something about it. And after that he placed me back on ignore and that was that.

I was left waiting for the customer support staff to resolve the issue (one response per 24 hours seemingly all they can manage), punish the thief and return my poperty... however this is where things hit a wall.

The customer support staff effectively took the following stance...

Due to thier privacy policy they may or may not take some action against this thief bob (its important to note the thief's girlfriend took no part in his thieving however) and "IF" they did, despite the irrefutable proof I would not be told the outcome of any investigation and/or action against him. Secondly what he had stolen would not be replaced as this was company policy, people could be claiming things stolen when they werent in order to get "FREE" stuff in game... which as utter nonsesne.. OBVIOUSLY this was not such a situation, proof had been provided that was as previously stated irrefutable, not to mention the fact I was not asking for extra items or duplications, all I expected was that what was taken be removed from him and returned to me a perfectly understandable and reasonable request.

I also wanted to know that something had been done against him, not necessarily details, just that "something" had, for my own sense of justice and right or wrong, in order that I could continue to play the game in the knowledge that a thief hadnt gotten away with it, and that he had had to answered for is actions.

Apparently however the games customer support staff did not aggree as far as they were concerned in so much as thier responses indicated every situation was essentially the same, and shouldnt be judged on its individual circumstance/merits/flaws as common sense would dictate (and why I might add most people would assume there actually ARE people in customer support as opposed to an automated answerphone services dispensing incompassionate unalterable, same every time responses).

But thier stance was unwavering and indeed after what has esentially now been over a week of many cut and paste replies and some personal direct responses I got so frustrated I demanded to speak to someone in autority/ I got a Senior GM who straight away gave me another cut and paste response, false platitudes about my situation and a continued refusal to bend on any point even stating that it was essentially my fault I had been robbed because I gave the individual access and the company put policies in place as they did not wish to interfere with what is essentially a player run organisdation (even though noone is asking them to interefer with how it is run, just to adjudicate when someone blatanly abuses the systems they provided us with).. unbelievable.

Essentially the system they have in place protects thieves and other morally bankrupt players who by intent or circumstances end up ruining other peoples enjoyment of a game in such dispicable manners at the expense of thier victims for whom they will provide no understandng, compassion, justice or peace of mind.

Appalled I have ended my three and a half year subscription enough is enough I will no longer give my hard earned money to such a reprehensible company that would allow such a circumstance to go unchallenged. My feelngs and experience with the companies support staff being such that as far as im concerned I will never touch another game from this company now or EVER again, on principle of them being as dispicable and morally bankrupt as him and his thieving habits.

The basic crux of it is that there is a basic moral principle here someone has stolen rom me and the companies policies essentially protect the thief and not the victim. In no way is or can that ever by anyone with any shade of decency consider that acceptable or allowable.. it MUST be changed, not just for me but for all of us, who are all essentially vulnerable to such activities without anyone from the company taking any form of stance to prevent it.

Im not quite sure what Support hoped to achieve by having me post the circumstance and responses here.. but if it helps to enact some cange to this blissfullygnorant policies they have that protect thieves then hopefully sme good can come of it.

As for character [Edited: naming is against the forum rules], hopefully naming and shaming him will at least protect others from his morally bankrupt antics.

Myopic Aardvark · 08-04-2008 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
@********** hopefully naming and shaming him will at least proect others from his morally bankrupt antics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the forum rules - I can't believe Customer Support told you to name and shame him.

"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon

Myopic Aardvark on Twitter

bluedarky · 08-04-2008 06:37 PM

Sorry to hear about this,

unfortunatly the problem is that in the event of things like this the policy is along the same lines as giving your car keys to someone and them driving off and never returning. As you allowed them access to your base and items within it, they can't do anything.

The only way they can restore it is if they used a bug or exploit to get around the limits imposed by the SG leader.

Londoner · 08-04-2008 06:39 PM

Its happened time and time again mate,nothing will be done about it because the useless pemission structure in effect says you gave him permission to steal your goods.

Shame you had to stumble over another [censored] bag.

MaXimillion_Zero · 08-04-2008 06:39 PM

By allowing them access to the base salvage, you effectively gave them the permission to empty the salvage bins should they want to do so. It's simply the way things work. It's like having a shared bank account with someone else, if they decided to empty the money from it it's their decision, and they have the right to do it.

Golden Girl · 08-04-2008 07:01 PM

I think you should reconsider your decision to quit - you shouldn't let one event put you off a game you've had a lot of fun with.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

Alphane · 08-04-2008 07:26 PM

Got no presence on the dark side mate but tell me the value of what was stolen and I will do my best to replace it for you blueside

I may even be able to arrange a redside drop for you given a little time

Invincible_Atlas · 08-04-2008 07:31 PM

Thanks for the offer Alphane

It isnt about the value though mate, my villain has plenty of Infamy, this is more about a) the betrayal of trust for absolutely no reason and more importantly b) how he has effectively been allowed and even protected by the companies policies to do such a thing and worse yet do it if he so chooses time and time again without any fear of official reprisal.

Invincible_Atlas · 08-04-2008 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should reconsider your decision to quit - you shouldn't let one event put you off a game you've had a lot of fun with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont want to quit, I enjoy this game and I have invested a lot of time, effort and money on and off over the last three and a half years playing it...

BUT at the same time I cannot in good conscience condone to myself paying money to a company that protects thieves at the expense of thier victims.

When a system protects activities of this sort, and those who perpetrate them, then something has to change.. if a Customer Support service, not cannot, but WILL not do something about such behaviour..then something is very very wrong with the way things work.

Alphane · 08-04-2008 07:41 PM

Mate don't get me wrong but I'd be catious abot blaming the entire system for one mans abuse of it. It would be a shame to see 3+ years work go down the pan for the sake of one ijut.

Invincible_Atlas · 08-04-2008 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By allowing them access to the base salvage, you effectively gave them the permission to empty the salvage bins should they want to do so. It's simply the way things work. It's like having a shared bank account with someone else, if they decided to empty the money from it it's their decision, and they have the right to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know HOW it happened, although there is no justification for the "Why" of it.. but this isnt about that. This is about the larger issue of someone doing something safe in the knowledge the system will protect them from having to answer for it.

My trust may have obviously been missplaced as it turns out, but that doesnt make what he did right, nor does it excuse him being able to get away with it.

For example.. if I have a flat and I look for a flat mate and all his references say his an awesome person.. such that I give this seemingly trusworthy effective stranger a key to my flat, only later find that after a week I come home one night and discover all my property has gone and my flat mate has vanished.. On what planet do you think the police would tell me sorry its your fault you gave him the key, consider it a learning experience and know better next time? Obviously that would not happen, the police would never tell me that, instead they would do everything possible to apprehend the thief and make him answerable for his actions and if humanly possible retrieve what was taken. And even if it wasnt retreivable id have insurance that would at least reimburse me for my loss.

So if such a situation could not occur in real life, then why should it be excusable for it to happen in a game, especially when that game constitutes a service I am paying to be provided and as such expect someone (the game company) to be looking otu for and protecting my ssafet and interests while playing it.

As I have stated this is about the principal of what the individual did, he stole from someone else, something that wasnt his and the system has effectively allowed him to do it, get away with it and even protect him for doing it from having to answer for his actions so that he could effectively do it time and time again to other people in total safety.

Golden Girl · 08-04-2008 07:49 PM

I think maybe they should add a second type of permission, rather than the current total access or total no access - make a more restricted kind of access that only allows you to take out items you've put in.

@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

MaXimillion_Zero · 08-04-2008 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]

For example.. if I have a flat and I look for a flat mate and all his references say his an awesome person.. such that I give this seemingly trusworthy effective stranger a key to my flat, only later find that after a week I come home one night and discover all my property has gone and my flat mate has vanished.. On what planet do you think the police would tell me sorry its your fault you gave him the key, consider it a learning experience and know better next time? Obviously that would not happen, the police would never tell me that, instead they would do everything possible to apprehend the thief and make him answerable for his actions and if humanly possible retrieve what was taken. And even if it wasnt retreivable id have insurance that would at least reimburse me for my loss.

[/ QUOTE ]Not a valid metaphor. What you did was to give them the same rights to the stored items as you had, not simply providing access to the space where they're stored at.

Oh, and you missed one instance of the name when editing your first post.

Invincible_Atlas · 08-04-2008 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Mate don't get me wrong but I'd be catious abot blaming the entire system for one mans abuse of it. It would be a shame to see 3+ years work go down the pan for the sake of one ijut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not the entire system I blame, just certain parts of the policies that protect any thief from thieving with the sole exception of a situation where someone hacks someone else's account to do it.. as currently that is the only instance where they would do something about it.

MaXimillion_Zero · 08-04-2008 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Mate don't get me wrong but I'd be catious abot blaming the entire system for one mans abuse of it. It would be a shame to see 3+ years work go down the pan for the sake of one ijut.

[/ QUOTE ]We've had threads like this before, the system isn't going to be removed. The most we're going to see will be more customization of the storage access, which would be a Good Thing

Londoner · 08-04-2008 07:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know HOW it happened, although there is no justification for the "Why" of it.. but this isnt about that. This is about the larger issue of someone doing something safe in the knowledge the system will protect them from having to answer for it.

My trust may have obviously been missplaced as it turns out, but that doesnt make what he did right, nor does it excuse him being able to get away with it.

For example.. if I have a flat and I look for a flat mate and all his references say his an awesome person.. such that I give this seemingly trusworthy effective stranger a key to my flat, only later find that after a week I come home one night and discover all my property has gone and my flat mate has vanished.. On what planet do you think the police would tell me sorry its your fault you gave him the key, consider it a learning experience and know better next time? Obviously that would not happen, the police would never tell me that, instead they would do everything possible to apprehend the thief and make him answerable for his actions and if humanly possible retrieve what was taken. And even if it wasnt retreivable id have insurance that would at least reimburse me for my loss.

So if such a situation could not occur in real life, then why should it be excusable for it to happen in a game, especially when that game constitutes a service I am paying to be provided and as such expect someone (the game company) to be looking otu for and protecting my ssafet and interests while playing it.

As I have stated this is about the principal of what the individual did, he stole from someone else, something that wasnt his and the system has effectively allowed him to do it, get away with it and even protect him for doing it from having to answer for his actions so that he could effectively do it time and time again to other people in total safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats all true and i agree 100%, but with the permissions as they are this lots customer support are pushed to tell the difference between case a... whats happened to you.

And case b.... someone has a grudge, gets sg member to remove salvage then reports them for stealing it.

Its the the permissions that need changing badly, customer support are between a rock and a hard place.

Alphane · 08-04-2008 08:01 PM

I'm unsure about how far to continue this conversation as you are obvouisly very wound up and I really don't want to atoganize you further but let me just say this your example seems to lack some depth, you not only invited a flatemate into your home ( invited them to your SG ) but in essence you also asked them to help themselves to your property ( gave him required access ). Don't get me wrong the guy was just plain stupid to do what he did but I kinda feel I'm getting my back up a little because you are attacking a system that I'm am kinda fond of ( the whole SG, earn trust and responsability in your community thing ) . My advice just take 5, chill out, and as far as leaving is concerned remember wherever you go there will always be some [censored]

Swissy · 08-04-2008 08:03 PM

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Really.

However, I think this issue is more about you feeling betrayed and seeking "revenge" rather than being outraged regarding the game's system.

@heshouldnotbenamed stole from you by the rules. These rules are fair and have been looked at many different angles before being implemented in the game. They are fairly straight forward and idiot-proof.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have made the same mistake you did (since I always give the benefit of the doubt to everyone I encounter, in-game and in RL) but you really misjudged @heshouldnotbenamed. Therefore you can only blame yourself for this slip up.

I'd just let it go. Even if your trust has been abused.
Spend time with friends. This can be a great opportunity to make up for the loss by making more TF's while sharing more great moments with said friends.

The game's system and rules are fine. The people who abuse them f***ed.

Alphane · 08-04-2008 08:05 PM

<QR>
Oh yes if I ever meet @hewhoshallnotbenamed I'm sure I'll amuse myself watching him faceplant as long as he'll put up with it.

*Sorry AFK, phone call, NNOOOO you faceplanted again, Sorry mate*

Invincible_Atlas · 08-04-2008 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not a valid metaphor. What you did was to give them the same rights to the stored items as you had, not simply providing access to the space where they're stored at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it is valid, as with the metaphor I gave the option the give access is an all or nothing affair, which is exactly the case in the game.. as the system does not allow for refining who can access what, only a carte blanche yes to everything or no to everything option of access.

We should ideally be able to give individual Rank access to each and every storage device (from inspiration and enhancement storages through to salvage racks) in a base separately.

As for salvage racks well my opinion has always been that realistically their isnt any real need for anyone besides the person(s) with permission to modify the base to remove items from them anyway, but as he had no use for the base salvage it never really occured to me at the time to restrict his access especially seeing as up until that point the Sg had only had me and my alts in it and therefore no need to restrict add/remove access from myself.. but then the notion of him taking it and doing a runner never seemed likely either as we were laughing, joking even on first name basis....up until it happened..totally out of the blue without anything precipitating or leading up to it.

HardRider · 08-04-2008 08:15 PM

well. i feel for u mate. i was once a sg leader my self. infact got my sg to rank 70. (i was villains btw). and during my rain i came across one person offering to steel salavge from some other sgs to add to mine. staright away i took action. when he/she logged to make a fake alt. i kicked him from the sg, and warned every leader n sg i knew ppl in. and since then have hated tht person. ( the only in game i actually hate, which is unfortunate but to be done)

theif from sgs isnt new n very old. and very gutting to the sgs.its sad tht people still do it and is why ppl put in place unbreakable rules to protect what should be a fun thing to be in. however i do understand why customer support act the way they do but it still sucks.

*may the minions of the Lucifer's reaper's live forever in the shadows*

Alphane · 08-04-2008 08:19 PM

I'd agree Permission by storage device would be nice so you could have one enhance bin for your mates ( full of common IO's) and one for yourself ( with all your funky stuff in ) a better idea might be pemission by member name rather than rank so anyone could have there own storage without any conflicts and you can have 'help yourself' storage as well. Hopefully some of these issues will be addressed in the new issues SG revamp.

Raven33 · 08-04-2008 08:20 PM

Talk to anyone, play with the good ones, trust no-one....

Sorry to hear about your issue friend

Invincible_Atlas · 08-04-2008 08:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Really.
However, I think this issue is more about you feeling betrayed and seeking "revenge" rather than being outraged regarding the game's system.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is SO not about Revenge lol, though I definitely feel betrayed. this is about people who do wrong things HAVING to answer for them in an applicable manner... and the system not actually protecting them while they committ such actions. Fundamentally it is about what is intrinsically right or Wrong..the basic tenets of what most of us are taught as children and take through into adulthood.. i.e you dont do bad things and if you do, you expect to have to answer for them and make amends.

It the very least I would have expected the system to warn the perpetrator and return what he stole.. not duplicate or provide extra..but simply take from him, what he took from me and return it back to my base where it belongs.. but instead he is allowed to prosper for his theft safe in the knowledge that nothing will be done about it.

[ QUOTE ]
@heshouldnotbenamed stole from you by the rules. These rules are fair and have been looked at many different angles before being implemented in the game. They are fairly straight forward and idiot-proof.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suggest you re-read this part of your response my friend as it is a total contridction in terms. If you honestly think someone stealing by the rules is acceptable then you have missed some key lessons in what is right and wrong along the way.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying I wouldn't have made the same mistake you did (since I always give the benefit of the doubt to everyone I encounter, in-game and in RL)

[/ QUOTE ]

Its safe to say NO I dont expect to be betrayed and stolen from when I spend every day for a month, for like 12 hours a day helping someone new to the game, going out of my way to include and advise them, support them and aid them and then have nothing done about it.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

that is where you and I differ im afraid, I make a point of not standing by while people take advantage. things never change unless smeone takes a stand and says "This is not acceptable" and that is what I am doing.

[ QUOTE ]
The game's system and rules are fine. The people who abuse them f***ed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they were they wouldnt be able to safely abuse them..so no obviosuly things arent fine.

MaXimillion_Zero · 08-04-2008 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Actually it is valid, as with the metaphor I gave the option the give access is an all or nothing affair

[/ QUOTE ]Option to access != Permission to use/take. If you were to give someone the keys to your house and write a contract with them allowing them to take whatever they wish into their own possession, then it would be comparable to this situation.