Theft from SG.. Tale of Woe
By
ajax_cat,
Posted on: 2008-08-04 18:10 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The morale of the story is - never trust anyone you don't know the address of just in case you need to give them a smack in the face.
@Sweet Chilli
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The morale of the story is - never trust anyone you don't know the address of just in case you need to give them a smack in the face.
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I can safely say that knowing someone's address does not mean you should trust them.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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The morale of the story is - never trust anyone you don't know the address of just in case you need to give them a smack in the face.
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The morale of the story is there are no grrrls on the internets.
Until camfap confirmation.
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But the main issue for me is that as things stand he has essentially been protected by the current rules and policies in place
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No. Existing policies do not cover such an incident - there is no recourse here. It's unfortunate you got conned, but arguing on for 'justice' in the face of responses from Red names and (arguably) experienced players does seem like either a venting exercise or a fools errand. It serves no purpose.
Instead of railing against the known and officially acknowledged shortcomings of the existing system and entering questionable debates of morality why not explore ways of stopping this from happening?
From memory the most common request is to allow seperate permissions for each individual storage unit by both group and/or individual player access. Example: the top quality swag can go in a 'bosses only' access storage bin, each player has a storage bin, and one or more storage bins exist for communal use. This won't protect you from getting conned by someone for access to the sweet lute though.
An idea I had triggered by this thread was some sort of per-instance permission system - an sg member effectively submits an order form for the items they want to take out of storage (e.g. "3 green insps, a Photonic Thingy salvage and 12 Nimrod salvages"). The person in charge of the sg storage gives a yes/no response next time they log on.
There's alot of problems with the above system. It's not instant, it needs a scheme to resolve the cases of when permission granter leaves the sg or does not sign in for a long time, and it smacks of control freakery. It *is* a sure fire way to stop someone swiping all the sweet lute however.
every time I read a story like this it reinforces the decision we have taken only to allow family members into our SG,s.I am not ot bothered with base salvage as we have plenty in all our SG,s what would hurt would be for someone to walk of with the enhancements as thru out all our bases we must have almost 700 of them made up,these are all IO,s as we no longer use DO,s or SO,s.Shame that we have to do this but as the customer support will do nothing even if you have told the person not to remove them we have to protect all our hard work .
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would you expect a kid to be left alne in a sweet shop by themself and not to touch any sweet if you told them not to?
the reason they can't one it one word against another, two it the way the guild was set up, three they here to fix promblem with the ame and improve it not polices the game
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would you expect a kid to be left alne in a sweet shop by themself and not to touch any sweet if you told them not to?
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Thats some warped logic there my friend lol.. firstly the guy was an adult same as me and not a child.
Secondly and on a more lighter note if you think because somethign is there is adequate justification for someone helping themselves then I forsee a lot of jailtime in your future lol as that line of thought is not going to work out to well for you.
Seriously though as has been mentioned and discussed with others there is a fundamental difference between having "access" to something and "Permission" to take it.. the guy in question knew that, yet helped himself and did a runner straight after anyway. And that is after every day for a month of acting like and trying to be my friend as was already noted in the original post.
Id also note to the couple of posters Ive seen speak of "other sides of things" and "his side of things" I'd love to hear them and his justification for what he did I really would, but despite trying to get answer for him he couldnt explain or rationalise his actions at all and instead placed me back on global ignore.
He may not be a child, but he does play a villain ...
:P
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He may not be a child, but he does play a villain ...
:P
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just because you may or may not play a villian gives you permision to empty an sg storage then leg it claming hay only natural im a villian (regular villian player myself for the record)
There isnt a problem on earth that cant be solved with the proper aplication of hi explosive's
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There comes a time when you need to put things down and walk away, this is one of them.
You have been suckered by a fellow player?
Ok dont be taken again, learn from whats happened and move on.
As annoying as it is to have what you see as a trust broken why make things worse by trolling it over and over again hear on the boards?
Will things change? Nope I cant see that happening.
Will you get the stuff back? Again no cant see that happening.
Does venting and gnashing your teeth make you feel better? Yes it would seem so!
Was the chap role playing? Whatever deities you worship only knows that!
At the end of the day its, and I know this may shock some players
..a game!!
This chaps playing the game the way he wants as a villain, for better or worse thats what he or she wants to do, if you want to play with him/her and allow the potential for this to happen so be it, if you dont then dont play with new players or get to know them better first, even then the EVE case is a dam good one, there are people who love to play the dark side and there is no way to know whos, who 
If the persons a bit of a fool then this very post will be puffing his/her chest up no end, some people playing the game will also look on this and think its funny or cool or any other number of things, in the end keeping your rant alive is only doing them a favor not you!
Its time to put the pitch fork down and let the torch go out, yes your annoyed and hurt but there is not a blessed thing you can do about it, and any other on line game will be the same, you have been played good and proper try not to repeat it again and go on.
To cancel a sub seems excessive for this, at the end of the day you have lost some of your on line time, if you had 20 level 50s and someone had hacked your account and deleted the lot selling everything you have and leaving you with a blank logon screen then things may go differently!
But its not thank goodness
It is after all meant to be fun as games should be not life and death, and thank your stars its not WoW 
hope you work it out
/salute
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would you expect a kid to be left alne in a sweet shop by themself and not to touch any sweet if you told them not to?
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Thats some warped logic there my friend lol.. firstly the guy was an adult same as me and not a child.
Secondly and on a more lighter note if you think because somethign is there is adequate justification for someone helping themselves then I forsee a lot of jailtime in your future lol as that line of thought is not going to work out to well for you.
Seriously though as has been mentioned and discussed with others there is a fundamental difference between having "access" to something and "Permission" to take it.. the guy in question knew that, yet helped himself and did a runner straight after anyway. And that is after every day for a month of acting like and trying to be my friend as was already noted in the original post.
Id also note to the couple of posters Ive seen speak of "other sides of things" and "his side of things" I'd love to hear them and his justification for what he did I really would, but despite trying to get answer for him he couldnt explain or rationalise his actions at all and instead placed me back on global ignore.
[/ QUOTE ]1st thing my post wasn't against you it was against the other person, but as you want me to answer you then fine i will
i know what it was like in fact twices, 1st time it was an open house rule you put in and you can take ut well someone did break the trust back, so we had to lock up tight but it wasn't tighted anuff as someone work though the ranks quickly to obtain the stuff. but that the day it broke my SG i lost alot of player that day to other SG because i couldn't hold onto stuff people worked hard for, they felt let down and so did i for i didn't think it would happen again.
So don't jump your guns and try to think you know me, i seen the darker side of any mmorpg game player and what lengths they go into get hands on or destory other people happiness.
Plus your telling me you never hear don't let a kid alone in a candy store???
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Plus your telling me you never hear don't let a kid alone in a candy store???
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Candy store is somewhat an Americanism and to be honest no I've never heard that phrase myself.
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So don't jump your guns and try to think you know me, i seen the darker side of any mmorpg game player and what lengths they go into get hands on or destory other people happiness.
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"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Broadcast flames on fire off the shoulder of Orion Beltway. I watched gold-spam glitter in the mailbox near the Talos Island Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like debt on your main. Time to log off."
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As annoying as it is to have what you see as a trust broken why make things worse by trolling it over and over again hear on the boards?
Will things change? Nope I cant see that happening.
Will you get the stuff back? Again no cant see that happening.
Does venting and gnashing your teeth make you feel better? Yes it would seem so!
Was the chap role playing? Whatever deities you worship only knows that!
At the end of the day its, and I know this may shock some players
..a game!!
This chaps playing the game the way he wants as a villain, for better or worse thats what he or she wants to do, if you want to play with him/her and allow the potential for this to happen so be it, if you dont then dont play with new players or get to know them better first, even then the EVE case is a dam good one, there are people who love to play the dark side and there is no way to know whos, who
If the persons a bit of a fool then this very post will be puffing his/her chest up no end, some people playing the game will also look on this and think its funny or cool or any other number of things, in the end keeping your rant alive is only doing them a favor not you!
Its time to put the pitch fork down and let the torch go out, yes your annoyed and hurt but there is not a blessed thing you can do about it, and any other on line game will be the same, you have been played good and proper try not to repeat it again and go on.
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LOL the abvoe is the kind of response you get when someone walks in on the end of a conversation and doesnt actually bother to read what has gone before... now admitedlly we may be on page 14, but my actual comments only make up a miniscule amount of that and have not been Trolling the point as you put it but actually responding to others comments on the subject and explaining my POV, which is after all the nature of any discussion and the point forums exist... i.e to Talk about things.
I would also note this issue is only here, because NCSofts Customer Support told me to post it here in order that discussion about it could occur.. so if that is problematic for you, you are free to pop across to the next thread and choose to ignore this particular topic even exists or take the issue up with them so as to ascertain why they thought thier should be a discussion about it.
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To cancel a sub seems excessive for this, at the end of the day you have lost some of your on line time, if you had 20 level 50s and someone had hacked your account and deleted the lot selling everything you have and leaving you with a blank logon screen then things may go differently!
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you know I think some people whether because of age or whatever.. seem to forget this game is not free.. it is a service "we" pay to have provided. NCSoft do not do us a favour by allowing us to play.. "We" keep them in business by playing the game they have made.
so when I get abused in a non acceptable way obviously as most normal people would I expect to have the issue resolved and something done about it, so that I as a consumer am protected from such abuse in the future.. so with that in mind although the ending of a subscription may have been a knee jerk reaction (and one that has since been changed due to a number of very nice people on this actual thread) it is not un-understandable.. or at least it doesnt seem to have been for most people here.
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It is after all meant to be fun as games should be not life and death, and thank your stars its not WoW
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I totally agree it should be fun, but thats kind of the point isnt it... someone else for no reason took it upon themselves to ruin my fun simply because they could. Wasnt nice, wasnt acceptable... simple as.
though as noted although I lost faith in the game for a while many of the nice people that make up our community, and more importantly who I have spoken to here via this thread and tell have restored that faith somewhat..well at least enough for me to stay subscribed. though I think its safe to say I wont be giving anyone access to either of my SG's any time soon until the Sg system is SERIOUSLY overhauled.
and thanks, I hope the issue is solved too on numerous levels
I wouldnt say that it needs a serious overhaul.. more additions to the current system definately (maybe even on a per user basis instead of a per rank basis) but even so, that is still open to the potential for abuse once they have gained your trust.
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so when I get abused in a non acceptable way obviously as most normal people would I expect to have the issue resolved and somethign doen about it, so that I as a consumer am protected from such abuse in the future..
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Here's the rub, though: by the rules and mechanisms of the game, he had the right to do what he did (as that's what you'd given him when you gave him access to the storage bins.) Yes, you had what amounts to a gentleman's agreement with him that he shouldn't do what he did and he broke it, but you can't expect NCSoft Europe to enforce your gentlemans' agreements in the game any more than you can expect the police to enforce them in real life.
If you give someone the keys to your apartment, you can't call the police on them because they cleared out your fridge, even if they'd said they wouldn't do that.
The problem isn't NCSoft's inacticity. As Supergroup rights are implemented today, there's nothing they can, or indeed should, do about this instance. The problem is the way the Supergroup rights are implemented, and in particular the "all or nothing" access to base editing and storages. There ought to be support for some kind of per day limit, or similar.
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1st thing my post wasn't against you it was against the other person, but as you want me to answer you then fine i will
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I think you misunderstood my response as Im not entirely sure what you thought it said that would necessitate such a rant reply..
But my reply was first part joke (hence the LOLs and on a lighter note comments) in response to your kid in a candy shop quote, which came across to me as a joking comment and that is how it was responded too it. The second part of my reply was a clarification (and a general one, not actually aimed at you and in no way a dig at you) and finally a general comment in reference to some early posts by other people that I tagged on to my reply, (which wasnt even directed at you at all)
So colour me confused as to why your getting riled up over nothing.
And yes I have heard the Candy Store quote before, though I dont know why your asking if I have? as nothing in my response indicated I didnt get it, indeed the first part of my reply very much indicated I did..
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Here's the rub, though: by the rules and mechanisms of the game, he had the right to do what he did (as that's what you'd given him when you gave him access to the storage bins.)
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Ive already mentioned this in more detail in previous repsonse in this topic so I wont repeat things.. but no he didnt have a right to it, he had access to it, and access does not equate to permission. And yes the system as it stands may require people to abide by permission on thier own honor.. but that is kind of what we've been talking about. I.e how the Honor system is a flawed one because "Some" people are blatantly not honorable.. therefore we need more tools in game to be able to restrict who can and cannot access what as far as SG's go.
Also just as an aside, NCsofts Customer Support at no point have ever stated what he did was acceptabel or allowed simply because the rules as they stand dont prevent it. Indeed they have agreed many times during our tickets that it was an abuse.. but what they have said is that because it doesnt breach the policies they (not cannot) but ARE not allowed to actually do anything about it.
the stance of "It is not breaking the rule sand so is totally okay" is one taken by some of the commenters on this thread, not by NCSoft.
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I wouldnt say that it needs a serious overhaul.. more additions to the current system definately (maybe even on a per user basis instead of a per rank basis) but even so, that is still open to the potential for abuse once they have gained your trust.
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Obviously not EVERYTHING lol.. but definitely as far as storage and who can/cannot access what we need WAY more control than we have now if they effectively expect us to police ourselves.
Its just unfortunate that people like the thief exist as in three and a half years this is the first time Ive ever had my trust betrayed in this game.. normally when you take a new player under your wing and help them, support them you come out the other side with a new long term frined and someone you can trust who si grateful for the help and time etc.. you have given them.. though he obviously decided to go another route for whatever reason.
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"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Broadcast flames on fire off the shoulder of Orion Beltway. I watched gold-spam glitter in the mailbox near the Talos Island Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like debt on your main. Time to log off."
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someone is having a Blade runner moment lol 
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Ive already mentioned this in more detail in previous repsonse in this topic so I wont repeat things.. but no he didnt have a right to it, he had access to it, and access does not equate to permission.
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According the way supergroups work in the game, it does. If you didn't want to give him permission, you shouldn't give him access. Anything beyond that is a gentleman's agreement. It's a sucky system, but it's the one we've got.
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the stance of "It is not breaking the rule sand so is totally okay" is one taken by some of the commenters on this thread, not by NCSoft.
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It's not "totally okay," it's just not in any way sensurable by NCSoft support staff.
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Thats some warped logic there my friend lol.. firstly the guy was an adult same as me and not a child.
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It's 20 years or so since I saw a postcard of a dog sat at a computer terminal under the words "On the internet no-one knows you're a dog..."
That still stands today.
The actual age is probably irrelevant here, but you don't really know a darn thing about the person who betrayed your trust. Sure you got an impression of them over a couple of weeks, but they may not be who you thought they were. Heck - Even though I wasn't RP'ing (in my eyes) I've had adults mistakenly believing me to be female even after a couple of weeks of regular teaming (but maybe that's more to do with empaths and the male psyche).
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Seriously though as has been mentioned and discussed with others there is a fundamental difference between having "access" to something and "Permission" to take it.. the guy in question knew that, yet helped himself and did a runner straight after anyway. And that is after every day for a month of acting like and trying to be my friend as was already noted in the original post.
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BTW - half the people on the forums seem quite familiar with IT, and as such rights and permissions may be used synonymously as they tend to be used that way in IT security. SO someone saying that the person had the rights to remove everything may just mean that they had the technical access permissions to do so, with no implied judgement upon whether it was morally right or wrong.
Whether or not they had the 'right' to take the items may be subjective, but what is known is that they couldn't take anything unless you gave them permission to remove items from SG storage.
Again: You gave them permission to remove items from SG storage.
You may have done this implicitly. You may have promoted them to a level that had removal rights and didn't realise it and never intended them to have removal rights. In that case it's an unfortunate mistake on your part, but it is a mistake on your part. Maybe to help stop this, the UI needs to show you the new access permissions upon promotion and get them confirmed...
If you did know that you were granting them access permission (in a technical sense, even if bound by your gentlemans' agreement) then in-game you had granted permission for them to remove from storage without limits.
There is no in-game option for allow removal within reasonable limits. Removal permission is an all or nothing affair - and you granted permission.
So one of three things happened:
1 - You promoted the scounderel to a level which had removal rights without realising it. Your mistake.
2 - You knew you were giving them removal rights, but had a gentlemans' agreement. Your mistake of judgement - you cannot have a gentlemans' agreement when only one party is a gentleman.
3 - You knew you were giving them removal rights with no limits but didn't expect them to misbehave so suddenly. Again a mistake of judgement.
All scenarios have a mistake or error of judgement of some form on your part.
As I read it, GMs/support are there just to enforce EULA. They is nothing that they can practically do as it's nigh on impossible to prove that the EULA was broken.
About the closest you could get is that the behaviour of removal-SG exit-place you on global ignore looks like the behaviour I'd expect from someone griefing through a smash-and-grab... but it may be explained by other circumstances. He'd possibly be in trouble if he'd started sending you tells gloating at his actions and effectively confessing to griefing, but maintaining a silence isn't EULA-contravening afaik.
Best writing this off to experience, being a lot more cautious about giving information or permissions that could possibly be used/misused/abused to cause you distress and joining the call for better, more granular SG permissions and management tools.
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Theft in real life can be reported, and the thief be arrested.
It's a nice parallel to say you gave the thief the key, but hey if a person in real life steals from his workplace, he will face charges. The base looks more like a workplace, than a small house to me. To use the uncalled-for parallel.
Since there is no charges here, and nobody is willing to take action, tighter control it must be. Or scrap the whole system. Because it's based on trust now. And trust is not cutting it.
The current base security, assume people behave. And that's not going to happen. The access options are far too generous, in fact not dealing with these issues in more than the most rudimentary way. If people steal in real life, where there are consequences of some note, then this must be the gift shop of the ages. Free loot, no real punishment.
But hey, let's continue to blame the people who trusted someone. Because that was their only option, bar rendering the base useless for storage purposes, for all but the very few.
This is not the first time, and unless something is done, not the last. Security based on trust, that's a nice idea. For solo bases. And in alternate dimensions where humans behave. In this game, it's working for us with 2 people in the SG. Too bad for the rest, huh?
Individual storage bins with a generic access point like the salvage vault is the way to go, in addition to a common storage pool, as before. Where you gosh darn don't put anything nice, or else.
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At any rate, as I have said, I ASSURE you there was no attack.
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thanks for the heads up though, as I certainly didnt mean my response to him to come across that way. I guess its all a matter of perspective and how someone chooses to read it.
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Just to clarify I never thought this was a personal attack so we're all good. After a couple of attempts I still don't understand the OP's logic but I certainly don't think it was intended in an insulting way. As we seem to be using different strains of logic and have a general inability to understand each other its best for all if we leave it alone.