Stereotyping?


Alvan

 

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Against artificial intelligence there is no excuse for being defeated apart from not being too bright or not getting the support you'd expect.


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Care to explain in more detail? As I think a lot of people would take offence to this statement.


 

Posted

Hmmm This thread is way too deep for my taste.

Bottom line is you can either;

1. Approach mob - Taunt - gain aggro of the mob - spam taunt and don't attack, while your team takes the mobs out.

or

2. Approach mob - Taunt - gain aggro of the mob - spam taunt and attack, helping your team take the mobs out.

I know what I'd rather do as a Tank.....


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Posted

[Removed - Bridger]

Secondly, I agree with Thunderbolt.

Thirdly, this is what I have to say about this topic. It's a game, if somebody wants to play in a different way to you, or how somebody told you they should play, then just let them.


I am the Blaster, I have filled the role of Tank, Controller and Defender
Sometimes all at once.
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What the Hell is a Blapper or a Scranker?? Are we to have a defroller or a Scrafender??

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I could have been a Cont-Ender

Characters are usually defined by their 'original purpose'.

Blasters, Controllers, Defenders : Ranged Squishies that damage/lock/heal.
Tankers : Melee Meat Shield
Scrappers : Melee Boss Killer.

Despite all characters having abilities that allow them to do things other than that; some people that haven't played the AT's look on them for that purpose. Hence the sub-AT's of Blapper (Blaster with Melee), Blaptroller(Blaster with Melee Holds), Scranker (Tank who Damages or Scrapper who soaks damage), Offender (Defender with Ranged Damage) etc.

The sub-AT's define your playing style if it differs from the 'norm.'.

But, as is plainly obvious, referring to a Defender as Heal-Bot, especially if Kin or Rad will get a lot of backs up. Similar with Taunt Bot for Tanks; as long as you can keep aggro from the squishies; you're doing your AT's job.


 

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I don't think it's a case of not attacking but knowing when to attack. On a good team or easy mish where a group is taken down in 20 seconds, your aura and an AoE is enough to get aggro at the start of the fight. No reason not to attack then as there is little danger. As the difficulty goes up the amount of attacking should go down as you focus on keeping the team safe. Against tough foes, I rarely attack at all as I watch for runners, keep bosses busy or keep an eye on nearby groups in case they get aggroed. I actually only have three damaging powers from my secondary and only use two most of the time - and thats for the knockup and hold they have, not the damage.

As people have said though, you can play your character any way you wish. Just nice to let team mates know that you prefer to scrank so they know what to expect.


 

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Not sure where this idea comes from, but it's certainly not how I play my Tankers.

Attacks not only trigger Gauntlet on the target and any nearby enemies, they also do damage. The more damage you've done to a critter, the more aggro you generate and the quicker the team can defeat it.

It's a balancing act, of course, as you need to make sure that you're using your attacks to peform your primary role in the team (which will normally be to protect the other members by taking the hits yourself).

In my opinion, though, a Tanker that doesn't attack is making his job harder, not easier, and isn't contributing as much to the team as one that dishes out damage as well as holding aggro.

Your mileage may vary, of course.


 

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i entirely agree! a tank that can stay alive and dish some damage to boot is far more beneficial to a team than a tank who stands there and auto taunts! also a tank that can attack is far more flexible than a taunt-bot for any situation that a team may encounter

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id like to see this proven, i really would. i SERIOUSLY disbelieve it.

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Well, I can prove it easily. Take a team of one defender and one tank. You can't tell me with a straight face tauntbot + def will finish missions faster than normal tank + def, Gauntlet is enough to hold aggro for a 2-4 man team even if you have no clue what you're doing (and if you do, it's easy to hold all the aggro for a 8-man team with gauntlet alone).

Tauntbot, just like pure emping, is exp leeching, plain and simple. I don't see the need to tell my teammates I'm a "scranker" or I don't have taunt, because I'm a true tanker instead of a pansy tauntbot, and all I ever get is "wow! you're awesome at tanking".


 

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Gauntlet is enough to hold aggro for a 2-4 man team even if you have no clue what you're doing (and if you do, it's easy to hold all the aggro for a 8-man team with gauntlet alone) unless you meet an AV, in which case it's impossible to hold its aggro with Gauntlet alone.

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Edited for completeness.


 

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Add this one to the list of "Popular Misconceptions" I'd imagine.

Speaking from my own experience, I have a lvl 46 Fire / Axe Tank, that doesn't have taunt. BA is slotted for 2 acc, 2 end rdx and 2 taunts. His build is geared more towards damage, than damage mitigation, but that is kinda the point of a fire tank anyway isn't it?

Fact of the matter is, I don't usually have trouble getting a team, and there are a few players I've teamed with that regularly team with me because, I'm "an awesome tank". Personally, I think I'm too squishy and rely too much on support to be a good "proper" tank, but hey - so long as the job gets done and everyones happy, isn't that the point?


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Add this one to the list of "Popular Misconceptions" I'd imagine.

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One can always speculate, but I've seen an awful lot of posts - from reliable people - saying "gauntlet just won't hold AV aggro". I've seen zero posts saying it will.

If you've tried to hold AV aggro with gauntlet, and it worked, then all well and good; as things stand I'll call it not working as close to established as we can get it, not a misconception.


 

Posted

being a tank-lover myself i've found myself in the "line of fire" when it comes to other peoples opinions on how i should play them, but who are they to judge?

the only thing that we all have to think about is that the game needs to be FUN and as long as the player who 'owns' the character in question think its fun to play then thats that.

You're the one paying, not everyone else, so dont care about what they say about your toon in whatever way unles you've asked for some advice.

i also have to say that ppl telling others things about their AT or current build isnt always wrong. but most of the time the intention is sadly enough a bad one.

so to sum up, you pay, you play, have fun and dont give a rats*** what other ppl think


@EU Brimmy - Union and Exalted servers

 

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Add this one to the list of "Popular Misconceptions" I'd imagine.

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One can always speculate, but I've seen an awful lot of posts - from reliable people - saying "gauntlet just won't hold AV aggro". I've seen zero posts saying it will.

If you've tried to hold AV aggro with gauntlet, and it worked, then all well and good; as things stand I'll call it not working as close to established as we can get it, not a misconception.

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Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that "it being impossible to tank an AV with gauntlet alone" was a popular misconception, but the idea that "a tank shouldn't attack" was a popular misconception.


@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
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scrafenders you have also made up.

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I've got a rad/rad defender that could be called a "scrafender" if you like.

The safest place for me is where my debuffs are active, which is usually in the middle of the melee, and my PBAOE heal is most effective in the middle of the melee, and my PBAOE attack is most effective in the... ah, you guessed it. So, I scrap it out in the middle of the melee with powers like Air Superiority, which is very nice control (so you could call me a "scraconfender" ) and Boxing, which is a nice, quick attack, while I apply a PBAOE hold through my Choking Cloud.

You have two power sets - using just one is like running you engine on only half the cylinders.

And, besides, its boring. Playing should be fast, furious, involving - not repeating the same optimal attack sequence with automaton-like precision, like you were on an assembly line...


 

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Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that "it being impossible to tank an AV with gauntlet alone" was a popular misconception, but the idea that "a tank shouldn't attack" was a popular misconception.

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Ah - gotcha. In that case I agree completely; from a purely practical point of view taunt auras are automatic anyway, Taunt itself only cycles so quickly, so there has to be a bit of spare time a tanker might as well do a bit of damage in. Standing there like a pudding because "tankers shouldn't hit things" won't help anyone.

Plus, as Bridger said, hitting something with an attack will grab the attention of several mobs via gauntlet so even from a "tanks should just grab aggro" slant it's still a good thing to do!


 

Posted

I find it a little bit weird how some people view tanks as defined by their primary powerset alone. The best tankers I know actually attack quite a lot.
However, I have to say that there are toons I would definitely call "Scrankers". In the mid-twenties they are easily identified by their power choices since they typically take almost any secondary power and only so many armours. Sometimes this does not even include any form of status protection at this point (mid-twenties).
In the late game their sets look a lot more balanced, but their playstyle is definitely untankerish. They don´t care about aggro at all, but instead they go after one enemy at a time and generally do their own thing. (Still expecting to be healed by the defender who is fighting for his life, of course.) Some of them even skip their taunt auras because they actally try to avoid aggro.
So, a word like "Scranker" is translated as "bad Tanker" in my book. I really don´t care how a tanker runs his aggro management thing and I am thankful if he even adds some damage (like decent fire tanks for example) or control (like a good ice tank) to the mix, but if I invite a tanker who turns out to be a durable but sub-par scrapper I am a little bit annoyed.




If it has
eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.

 

Posted

On the question of taunting - am I right in thinking that even if you slot taunt auras with a taunt duration enh, you don't actually see the "taunted" symbol above the heads of those enemies affected by it? I ask because I've never seen it, but I think it'd be a useful way of gauging how many within a group you've got the attention of (other than the obvious one that they're attacking you :P)


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Take a team of one defender and one tank.

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I have a lvl 25 stone/stone tank and my Mrs has a lvl 25 elec/empath defender. I do the damage and keep the agro away from her as she heals and defends me. Does that make me a scranker? Cause if so I'd like a reason why. As I'm doing the my job and useing all my abilities to come out on top with a little help.

I agree that a tank standing there taking the agro and not REALLY pulling his wight is leaching. As a team without a tank can still take mobs. Maybe not as easy but still win.


 

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I think Lecxe would agree with me that by doing that you would qualify as a tanker doing his job.
Just imagine Lecxe´s example with you being just a taunt-bot and your Mrs healing and defending, both without any real damage output. You would be perfectly safe but so would the enemies.
In my book you would qualify as "scranker" if you would just pound on on or two enemies and wouldn´t care too much if the rest of the guys went after your Mrs. But given the fact that she is your Mrs I find that highly unlikely in any case.




If it has
eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.

 

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I agree that a tank standing there taking the agro and not REALLY pulling his wight is leaching. As a team without a tank can still take mobs. Maybe not as easy but still win.

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How about a defender that's just standing there buffing?
Or a controller who's just standing there holding?
Or a blaster who's just standing there attacking?

After all, teams can still take mobs without them. Maybe not as easy, but still win.


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I dont get it.


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Nuff said.. ..However I feel that I should mention that although I fully understand the need to pigeonhole everyone (I think its a natural instinct) I see no need a sub-category of any AT.

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Defrollers wont exist as any form of controlling is defending and scrafenders you have also made up.


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Please show me an official posting that shows the powersets of a Scranker, or a Blapper or any of the other obviously not made up terms for toons that make full use of their chosen powers.

Incidently I found the term Scranker amusing (it sounds like it should be censored - but not everyone gets everyone elses humour, no problem)

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And thanks alot IF you've stereotyped me in order to feel a rant to direct at me.

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Err...I didnt. I was asking if you were the type of person to wait (and count the time it takes) until someone else realised you needed assistance. For me if im out of the range of the Empath I use an Insp (or other) until the healing is given. The rest was a general rant. Sorry if you feel that it was aimed at you it really wasnt.

To put it back towards the original question I do feel that by selecting to play a particular AT that you are accepting certain responsibilities (not forgetting that it should be fun to play) like making sure the team is healthy for the Empath etc etc and, Yes taking the Aggro away from the rest of the team when tanking (with the exception of the Blaster that runs round as if hes on fire and aggros the whole map - they deserve what they get ) But people play it their own way and shouldnt be ostracised for it. There are always other teams where your efforts will be appreciated.

(think Ill go and get my extinguisher now, just in case )


 

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Freedom Falcon,

I speak here as someone who teamed with you way back in yout "teen" levels and later on, was on a lowbie team that you tanked for when you were in your early 30s just to help out (you were not exemped and thus got XP yourself) Far from getting pwned I think you have tanking down to a fine art.


 

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How about a defender that's just standing there buffing?
Or a controller who's just standing there holding?
Or a blaster who's just standing there attacking?


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Not any of my defenders, controllers or blasters. My defenders blast, my controller scrap[1], and my blasters control[2] too, etc, etc.

"Specialization is for insects", to quote Lazarus Long, and dead boring.

Why artificially limit yourself to half of your resources?

None of the players in my SG limit themselves that way, and lots of times when we get an extra pick-up-member in our SG groups, we get comments like "Wow! How fast you go through missions!".

[1]Pool attacks get quite decent with containment.
[2]Lots of control in the secondary effects of various blasts and blaster melee attacks.


 

Posted

All I can say is; It's down to the tank to decide how the tank wishes to play. It is his (or her) toon. That's the sum of it, as far as I'm concerned.


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Posted

Personally, I view things simply as can the AT do the AT's job reasonably well.

In the case of the Tank is boils down to: Can a tank take the lions share of the aggro; in essence allowing the rest of the team to get down and do their job free from the burden of taking care of themselves.

Ive come to see how tanks are "facilitators" more than any other AT. They allow the team members to get down and do their job(s). When tanks dont do their job, you see blasters, controllers, and defenders all running around and chaos. With good tanks on the team you often see how quickly things fall apart when and if they fall.

With any toon, I think all a team wants, and quite rightly expects, is that you can do your job reasonably well. This comes down to skill, build, and attitude. To be honest no-one should get to upset about wether your tank attacks or not - but they WILL get upset if in a 6 man team you are taking 20% of the aggro.


 

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Against artificial intelligence there is no excuse for being defeated apart from not being too bright or not getting the support you'd expect.


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Care to explain in more detail? As I think a lot of people would take offence to this statement.

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Ok I do apologise for that as when your new to the game you have to go through a learning curve. I keep thinking about how long this game as existed and how many people repeat the same common mistakes over and over such as running past a blind corner straight out into the middle of a mob it does worry me that people run out into the middle of the roads in real life without looking.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.