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being a tank-lover myself i've found myself in the "line of fire" when it comes to other peoples opinions on how i should play them, but who are they to judge?
the only thing that we all have to think about is that the game needs to be FUN and as long as the player who 'owns' the character in question think its fun to play then thats that.
You're the one paying, not everyone else, so dont care about what they say about your toon in whatever way unles you've asked for some advice.
i also have to say that ppl telling others things about their AT or current build isnt always wrong. but most of the time the intention is sadly enough a bad one.
so to sum up, you pay, you play, have fun and dont give a rats*** what other ppl think 
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Thats how i play my villains. people start complaining i get them into debt and slow there levelling. But do i care? I dont give a Rats ****. I'll powerdebt anyone. Its amazing how people start to care when they feel like their xp/time rate is slowed on villains than actually playing a thoughtful hero on CoH.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I dont get it.
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Nuff said.. 
..However I feel that I should mention that although I fully understand the need to pigeonhole everyone (I think its a natural instinct) I see no need a sub-category of any AT.
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Nope you've lost me i still dont get it.
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Defrollers wont exist as any form of controlling is defending and scrafenders you have also made up.
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Please show me an official posting that shows the powersets of a Scranker, or a Blapper or any of the other obviously not made up terms for toons that make full use of their chosen powers.
Incidently I found the term Scranker amusing (it sounds like it should be censored - but not everyone gets everyone elses humour, no problem)
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Merely pointing out that i feel you personally made the word scrafender up and defrollers.
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And thanks alot IF you've stereotyped me in order to feel a rant to direct at me.
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Err...I didnt. I was asking if you were the type of person to wait (and count the time it takes) until someone else realised you needed assistance. For me if im out of the range of the Empath I use an Insp (or other) until the healing is given. The rest was a general rant. Sorry if you feel that it was aimed at you it really wasnt.
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Nope its not that they were out of range, they were lost in their attack chain, out of range is sometimes my fault that i'd accept, being a blocked target would be my fault, not being patient enough for the action time of an attack would be wrong of me but 10 seconds in the red i mean "come on". I have a 50 empath myself and i really dont think its a good idea to put the secondaries first, its not worth losing the team over.
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To put it back towards the original question I do feel that by selecting to play a particular AT that you are accepting certain responsibilities (not forgetting that it should be fun to play) like making sure the team is healthy for the Empath etc etc and, Yes taking the Aggro away from the rest of the team when tanking (with the exception of the Blaster that runs round as if hes on fire and aggros the whole map - they deserve what they get 
) But people play it their own way and shouldnt be ostracised for it. There are always other teams where your efforts will be appreciated.
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I have said that the minimum inherent requirement to be a tanker is to gauntlet. The less taunt control you can create the less effective you are as a tanker. Gauntlet is poo, no doubt in my mind about it but the correct way to use it is to attack everyone around you (tab hit tab hit). Many tanks i have seen could be found on a minion or 2 whilst the rest of the team is dealing with the bulk of the group, a scrapper could of achieved that. Of course you could have an aura and taunt but not generate much taunt control through positioning and lack of using them and therefore do less tanking. Your not tanking unless your getting hit, the tankers ability to redirect fire away from the team and have the enemy place aoes away from the team is second to no other AT. Ofcourse i agree that you cant save everyone some people move into the way of cones, join you in the aoe, dont allow you enough time to finish your redirecting of fire or grouping before debuffs and aoes so that the maximum amount of foes are subjected to them.
People play their own way, however they see their toon and i do too. I dont come on to play my tanker to have to play my tanker as i dont want to play it but people in the team can through their playstyle dictate to you how you tank. In my case from being less preventative due to impatient teams too more recoverative. I like to tank preventatively. Some people prefer it, some dont. Some people want me to allow a stray here or there for their personal battles. Some controllers feel a little bit next to unnecessary as the tanker has taunt control and the defender has the teams survivability in hand. But controllers are very special to the tank because after the intial high burst of damage and the taunt control is there its nice to have foes held as it means no more getting damaged especially after you have used your heal.
People have different opinions on who is the best tank and I am sorry but there isnt one, because we are all only as good as the team we are in and people look for different things from a tanker even from a fun point of view.
What is important, is that you get to play your toon how you want to play it. Some will love you, some will not like you. I play all my toons from the perspective of all my toons. Its not until you have played other ATs you may realise certain things about how you play. I have mates playing their tankers looking back on their scrappers and thinking "**** did i really play like that?"
Every AT is special, everyone makes a toon to play that toon. I made a trick archer to debuff. Barely is it safe for me to debuff because aggro isnt controlled. I am not really getting to debuff and so i wonder why i am playing the toon. You all can think about your own personal journeys through the game whilst i'll look to play to assist team members in being effective. Some controllers want to be point and manage the aggro, i get that, ill go get my scrapper in that case. My dark defender can be on a team who all obviously dont want to live because they keep killing the anchors, i get that, ill go get my bubbler so i dont keep getting in debt but what i dont do is keep on playing my dark defender how i dont enjoy playing her and i dont think for a minute that anyone should. If someone dont like my playstyle or finds it slow/fast and unrisky/risky then they can go play with someone else because if i dont like someones tanking because they are risky and are basically ignoring what my set needs to do to be useful i will leave too. I didnt make a trick archer to be relegated to a second rate blaster. If no one is going to herd so that my debuffs are very effective and keep aggro from me because their only knowledge of playing is with an empath then ill get another team.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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scrafenders you have also made up.
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I've got a rad/rad defender that could be called a "scrafender" if you like.
The safest place for me is where my debuffs are active, which is usually in the middle of the melee, and my PBAOE heal is most effective in the middle of the melee, and my PBAOE attack is most effective in the... ah, you guessed it. So, I scrap it out in the middle of the melee with powers like Air Superiority, which is very nice control (so you could call me a "scraconfender" 
) and Boxing, which is a nice, quick attack, while I apply a PBAOE hold through my Choking Cloud.
You have two power sets - using just one is like running you engine on only half the cylinders.
And, besides, its boring. Playing should be fast, furious, involving - not repeating the same optimal attack sequence with automaton-like precision, like you were on an assembly line...
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Play the same similar way with my Rad within reason. What i find boring is the same tactics applied no matter whose in team, what enemy your up against, you talk about automaton-like precision. No matter what PuG team i join with toons people play the same way - run in mash buttons, fall down get ressed, run in mash buttons, fall down get ressed, yeah great...actually no. Id like fast and furious along with well thought out tactics. In fact the tactics only have to be thought out on first mob of first mission with first team and then you run with it. I am one of those players though who doesnt mind a chat in between groups.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Not sure where this idea comes from, but it's certainly not how I play my Tankers.
Attacks not only trigger Gauntlet on the target and any nearby enemies, they also do damage. The more damage you've done to a critter, the more aggro you generate and the quicker the team can defeat it.
It's a balancing act, of course, as you need to make sure that you're using your attacks to peform your primary role in the team (which will normally be to protect the other members by taking the hits yourself).
In my opinion, though, a Tanker that doesn't attack is making his job harder, not easier, and isn't contributing as much to the team as one that dishes out damage as well as holding aggro.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
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My mileage doesnt vary, the "as well as holding aggro" is a key point.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Is it time to resurrect the tank / taunt thread?
I knew there was a reason I kept from posting.... I cant believe how far people are willing to go just to say they've been here longer, which doesnt necessarily mean that they know more......
I think ill go back to enjoying the game and steer clear from areas such as this. I cant believe what Im reading.
.....Thanks for all the fish!! They definately knew better :-)
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I knew there was a reason I kept from posting.... I cant believe how far people are willing to go just to say they've been here longer, which doesnt necessarily mean that they know more......
I think ill go back to enjoying the game and steer clear from areas such as this. I cant believe what Im reading.
.....Thanks for all the fish!! They definately knew better :-)
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Why dont you do better than that and come out with numbers, talk game dynamics, come up with something?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Is it time to resurrect the tank / taunt thread?
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Mate other than serious taunt control i dont know what else a tank can offer a team that other sets cant using a combination of powers. Sure not every team needs a tank. I just cant see the point in making or playing one if your not going to tank.
And whats this tanker section for? whine about how firetanks have it bad balancewise when things arent actually that bad? Tell me not to take taunt and not to take aura cos redirecting fire from the squishier members doesnt matter cos it dont effect my xp? Tell tanks that they bear no relation to other sets and that nothing they do is useful to assist them? I dont think so.
The more taunt control a tanker has the better the possibilities and thats got nothing to do with a tank being a damage dealer. My tanks outdamage my scrappers particularly when they herd. Hell the whole team does.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Is it time to resurrect the tank / taunt thread?
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Has it ever died?
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Is it time to resurrect the tank / taunt thread?
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Has it ever died?
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"Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
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I knew there was a reason I kept from posting.... I cant believe how far people are willing to go just to say they've been here longer, which doesnt necessarily mean that they know more......
I think ill go back to enjoying the game and steer clear from areas such as this. I cant believe what Im reading.
.....Thanks for all the fish!! They definately knew better :-)
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Why dont you do better than that and come out with numbers, talk game dynamics, come up with something?
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Numbers/statistics are better than playing and enjoying the game as is?
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Is it time to resurrect the tank / taunt thread?
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Has it ever died?
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We can only hope
@SteelRat; @SteelRat2
"Angelina my love, I'm a genius!"
"Of course you are darling, that's why I married you. Physically, you're rather unattractive"
http://faces.cohtitan.com/profile/SteelRat
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I knew there was a reason I kept from posting.... I cant believe how far people are willing to go just to say they've been here longer, which doesnt necessarily mean that they know more......
I think ill go back to enjoying the game and steer clear from areas such as this. I cant believe what Im reading.
.....Thanks for all the fish!! They definately knew better :-)
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Why dont you do better than that and come out with numbers, talk game dynamics, come up with something?
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Numbers/statistics are better than playing and enjoying the game as is?
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I personally didn't think so, and I think it's kinda sad that someone has been put off the forums by a thread on it...
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All I can say is; It's down to the tank to decide how the tank wishes to play. It is his (or her) toon. That's the sum of it, as far as I'm concerned.
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Sounds good to me.
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
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Numbers/statistics are better than playing and enjoying the game as is?
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I have to say that I hated I5 and ED because I feel they forced me to pay attention to the numbers..
Ultimately, damage is everything in this game. The only situation where a tank should not attack is when they need to focus all of their time in keeping teammates alive. And such situations are very rare unless the team is truly hopeless.
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a tank that can attack is far more flexible than a taunt-bot for any situation that a team may encounter
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Indeed, not really. There isnt a situation in existence in which the best way for tank to proceed in team wouldn't be taunting..
[/ QUOTE ]All foes are herded nicely around the tank, in the AoE of his aura, and you say it would be better to taunt than fire off a PBAoE attack?
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Gauntlet is enough to hold aggro for a 2-4 man team even if you have no clue what you're doing (and if you do, it's easy to hold all the aggro for a 8-man team with gauntlet alone) unless you meet an AV, in which case it's impossible to hold its aggro with Gauntlet alone.
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Edited for completeness.
[/ QUOTE ]Sad, but true, one of the biggest single design failures in this game.
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How about a defender that's just standing there buffing?
[/ QUOTE ]They have their secondary and should use it when they don't have any (de)buffs to apply.
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Is it time to resurrect the tank / taunt thread?
[/ QUOTE ]Which one of them?
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Numbers/statistics are better than playing and enjoying the game as is?
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I have to say that I hated I5 and ED because I feel they forced me to pay attention to the numbers..
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You don't have to tho, you can certainly get by without it... apart from knowing that more than 3 of any enhancement type is a bad thing to do I don't really have a clue about any of the numbers. And I think I prefer it that way..
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All I can say is; It's down to the tank to decide how the tank wishes to play. It is his (or her) toon. That's the sum of it, as far as I'm concerned.
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Sounds good to me.
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Sounds good to me, too.
But I should add that it is up to me to decide who I want to team with. When I see a tanker that seems to be afk with taunt on auto during fights I feel that he is not contributing as much as he could. (It is not unusual that a tanker does this once in a while to get something to drink from the kitchen or something like that, but that is not every fight.) So, when I look for a good tanker this guy won´t be top of my list.
And when I see that my defender gets his teeth kicked in because the tank does not care about aggro management, that is a case where I will actively avoid ever teaming with that tanker again.
Worst case scenario was once when I teamed with a friend (peacebringer and warshade) and two other guys: one tanker and one empath. Looked like a decent little team at first sight but soon turned out to be anything but that. The tanker obviously didn´t have a clue what he was doing. He ran around rather aimlessly, attacking once in a while and didn´t have taunt or any taunt aura. When asked he explained that he didn´t like those powers since they made enemies hit him! 
Just to top it off the empath declared after a very needless near-teamwipe that he was sorry for the bad healing but he was chatting on ICQ and had the so-called tanker on follow with his aura heal on auto. 
Almost needless to say that we left that team ASAP.
So, basically even those two may play their toons as they wish to, but there is no way that I will tolerate reduced fun and increased debt because of walking talking team debuffs anywhere near me.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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I knew there was a reason I kept from posting.... I cant believe how far people are willing to go just to say they've been here longer, which doesnt necessarily mean that they know more......
I think ill go back to enjoying the game and steer clear from areas such as this. I cant believe what Im reading.
.....Thanks for all the fish!! They definately knew better :-)
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Why dont you do better than that and come out with numbers, talk game dynamics, come up with something?
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Numbers/statistics are better than playing and enjoying the game as is?
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No, but the Devs' paradoxical game design means that it's very easy to make a complete [censored] of a character that is so unplayable that it's no fun at all to level. They won't provide any hard figures - or even accurate power descriptions and consistant damage "amounts" - but do things like ED that make it all too simple for uninformed players to do horribly wasteful things (both in terms of slots and inf) like 6-slotting powers for the same thing.
Ultimately, if you're having fun and your team is having fun that the numbers don't matter and neither does your playstyle. However, there comes a point where both of those *do* make a difference - when you start getting your team killed because you're playing your character in a reckless manner or your contribution to the team is non-existant because of a dreadful build.
Personally, I play my tanks as aggressive meat-shields. I will attack for as long as I can afford the endurance cost and on the condition that it's not causing me to lose track of aggro - the last thing you want to do as a tank is for your actions to get the whole team killed, especially if it's because you were too busy beating on that Boss to notice that you'd lost the attention of the other mobs.
Omnes relinquite spes, o vos intrantes
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I knew there was a reason I kept from posting.... I cant believe how far people are willing to go just to say they've been here longer, which doesnt necessarily mean that they know more......
I think ill go back to enjoying the game and steer clear from areas such as this. I cant believe what Im reading.
.....Thanks for all the fish!! They definately knew better :-)
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Why dont you do better than that and come out with numbers, talk game dynamics, come up with something?
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Numbers/statistics are better than playing and enjoying the game as is?
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No, but the Devs' paradoxical game design means that it's very easy to make a complete [censored] of a character that is so unplayable that it's no fun at all to level. They won't provide any hard figures - or even accurate power descriptions and consistant damage "amounts" - but do things like ED that make it all too simple for uninformed players to do horribly wasteful things (both in terms of slots and inf) like 6-slotting powers for the same thing.
Ultimately, if you're having fun and your team is having fun that the numbers don't matter and neither does your playstyle. However, there comes a point where both of those *do* make a difference - when you start getting your team killed because you're playing your character in a reckless manner or your contribution to the team is non-existant because of a dreadful build.
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Great point. Since the data isn't available in game we have to be slightly obsessed with the numbers. Otherwise you have people slotting Combat Jumping & Hover for defense, Flash arrow for ToHit debuffs and the like.
If you don't want to use them you don't have to but for mechanics junkies like me I enjoy looking at the figures & the way they are used ingame.
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i entirely agree! a tank that can stay alive and dish some damage to boot is far more beneficial to a team than a tank who stands there and auto taunts! also a tank that can attack is far more flexible than a taunt-bot for any situation that a team may encounter
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id like to see this proven, i really would. i SERIOUSLY disbelieve it.
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Well, I can prove it easily. Take a team of one defender and one tank. You can't tell me with a straight face tauntbot + def will finish missions faster than normal tank + def, Gauntlet is enough to hold aggro for a 2-4 man team even if you have no clue what you're doing (and if you do, it's easy to hold all the aggro for a 8-man team with gauntlet alone).
Tauntbot, just like pure emping, is exp leeching, plain and simple. I don't see the need to tell my teammates I'm a "scranker" or I don't have taunt, because I'm a true tanker instead of a pansy tauntbot, and all I ever get is "wow! you're awesome at tanking".
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No he said "any" situation so i never bothered reading past the first line of your text.
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Gauntlet is enough to hold aggro for a 2-4 man team even if you have no clue what you're doing (and if you do, it's easy to hold all the aggro for a 8-man team with gauntlet alone) unless you meet an AV, in which case it's impossible to hold its aggro with Gauntlet alone.
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Edited for completeness.
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Thats it Standoff and that is just one reason why i seriously disbelieved it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.