By the tone of your post, it seems like you're liking your primary only.
If you want to defend, a controller is the best choice. (control/defense)
If you want to defend some and blast some, a defender is a good choice. (defense/blast)
Now, in fact, any controller can outdamage any defender in ST damage using Containment, and AoE with the fire epic. I'm hoping this problem will be adressed someday, but I'm not crossing my fingers. 
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Not wanting to insult anyone, but surely will: Is the Defender AT more fun for those who can't keep up with being a Controller?
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Heh. For people that play only the primary as a defender, maybe.
For me, defenders are fun because they are balanced. Controllers are fun because they are overpowered. I play both, I like both. Sometimes I like to have a good challenge, and I play a defender. Sometimes I want to feel like an unstoppable force, and I log a controller. It's good to have both options, IMO. I've abused Containement since they introduced I5 on Test, and I will abuse it until they fix it. 
You have a FF/en and don't like knockback? You have two basic options:
1) Delete him.
2) Learn to like knockback.
Given the rest of your post, I'd recomend one of the more active, less buffbotish defenders. Dark, Rad, Kin, Storm (well prehaps not Storm given the KB) TA and possibly even Emp may be more what you are looking for, as they all require more constant use of their primary, rather than a bit of buffing every four minutes, and the effect they have is somewhat more obvious.
Respecing out your blasts will only make it worse. A FFer with no blasts and no KB powers from FF may as well only show up for 20 seconds every four minutes and then stick themselves on follow.
As for defender only powersets, if we are including CoV, then it is only Psi Blast. If we are talking CoH only, add Dark Miasma, Dark Blast and Rad Blast to that list.
Dead Calm's Defender Manifesto
If you are saying that the secondaries for defenders need a little attention, no argument here. It was the loss of 5 slotted damage that hamstrung me. Up till then I was a poor mans blaster and had 4 or 5 of my secondary slotted up, now I have 2 or 3 and I barely reach for those buttons.
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Is the Defender AT more fun for those who can't keep up with being a Controller?
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My two penn'orth:
The Defender is more fun for those who want to do different things than a Controller. In my experience they can both find plenty to do but a Def will spend more time worrying about his team-mates than the enemy and vice-versa for the Cont.
I think the problem is that you've chosen possibly the worst available Defender build for you. Not only have you picked both 'knock-back strong' sets but FF is probably the lowest maintenence primary which will contribute to your feeling of not doing enough. My advice: don't bother waiting for 22, retire poor Dark Bubble and try something more interactive like Kin/, Rad/ or Dark/.
From personal experience I can recommend Dark/Dark as a nice build, which can include several controller tricks if you're getting withdrawl symptoms.
"If there's anything worse than being sacrificed, it's being sacrificed incompetantly."
I think your trouble is your sets. FF is a very 'buffed everyone, now what?' set and Energy has an inherent Knockback which you can't do anything about, it just happens.
Kinetics Defenders are the business, there's none of this 'now what?' stuff, there's always a buff to be applied or a debuff to be done. Also other defender types are much more action orientated. I suspect it's your sets that you're having trouble with as opposed to the Defender archetype.
Defiant 50's
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@Miss Chief
You can make /Dark controllers
I don't think any of the Defender primaries are unique - they're all also controller secondaries (Unless I've missed something obvious).
I've never liked controllers, they're just not any fun for me (Same with scrappers), but I'm absolutely loving my Kinetics/Elec Defender (Currently Lv31). I can solo on Rugged without any real problems (Some bosses can be a pain and mobs with a lot of mezzes) and in teams I can play a major part.
Hell, last night we were fighting Babbage (We destroyed him in a matter of minutes) and I had his end down to 50% within 60 seconds, he was slowed to a crawl and hardly doing any damage. If we hadn't killed him off so fast I'd have been able to drain all his end and keep it at zero with Short Circuit, rendering him unable to attack.
Once I get Fulcrum Shift in 310k xp time, I'll be able to turn the tide of entire battles, weakening all the enemies and putting the entire team at the damage cap, not to mention the +Recharge, +Speed, +RES and +Mez protection buffs that I can hand out.
FF can be a very dull set to play because of its lack of interactivity - a lot of builds can just be buffing team every 2 minutes and standing there with your toggles on - but by no means are Defenders dull.
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You can make /Dark controllers
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Dark is the only Defender primary you cannot have as a Controller secondary.
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You can make /Dark controllers,
I don't think any of the Defender primaries are unique - they're all also controller secondaries (Unless I've missed something obvious).
[/ QUOTE ]You can NOT make a controller with Dark Miasma, all other sets you can use though. Dark miasma is pretty much only defender I'd consider rolling nowdays... :/ Well, storm too.
FF/NRG used to be great as offender, nowdays I'd only recommend it if you like knockback (It's still the best char for that, and great fun with the right build, you just need to learn HOW to use knockback for it to be good instead of bad).
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You can make /Dark controllers
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Dark is the only Defender primary you cannot have as a Controller secondary.
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You're entirely right - not sure how I missed that one.
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I guess it all is a question of taste, I rolled a grav controller once, got him to 18 and was so completely bored with him that I deleted him. Sure, the attacks where nice and did good damage, the only problem was the animation time, by the time I got an attack off the targeted enemy was already killed by the team, the only useful thing I could do was hold the bad guys in mid-air.
I then rolled a dark/dark defender, completely different! Sure, not really a damage dealer but the fact is that you can throw a tar patch, scare the [censored] out of them and debuff their accuracy to oblivion and on a safe distance get of some attacks, the fact that they're slowed by the patch even means that you can get off a Moonbeam now and then, and that's almost in melee-range.
But, as I mentioned, it's all a question of taste.. 
I find defenders great fun to play because to me they are so versatile and can adept to the needs of most teams. Tufty is a dark/dark and thru out my career I've played as a healer, a herder, a blaster and a controller.
As most people have pointed out FF is a set you every love or hate to play becuase it doesn't really involve much. To be honest if I played an FF I'd concentrate on my secondary just as much because after you've done your buffing, you either sit there and not do much or blast away. The only way you can kind of combat the knockback is to pick up hover/fly and attack from above so you knock stuff into the ground.
Based on what you've said I'd say if you wanted to try a defender you're better off rolling a rad, kin,dark or if you want to be different a TA.
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The only way you can kind of combat the knockback is to pick up hover/fly and attack from above so you knock stuff into the ground.
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the other option with the knockback problem is... learn to like it a little bit.
I don't like knockback either and I remember feeling really gutted when I came back to my then lvl 16 kinetics defender to discover in a moment of madness I'd selected energy blast. I thought that it was going to be pretty rubbish for a defender that relies quite heavily on buffing off mobs stood next to the team
In the end I totally ignored all the AOE attacks and went the single target attacks (so as to annoy myself less initally) and then realised that it was actually quite an offensive defender tool. Being able to knockdown the deathmage that's attacking the contoller is quite useful...
If you only take the single target attacks it also allows you to be a bit more creative with your powerpools if you want to.
Alternativly, if you really hate knockback that much I would delete and make a defender with a blast that has no knockback
Defenders are fun tho, and I think different from controllers... as for the query:
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Is the Defender AT more fun for those who can't keep up with being a Controller?
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Nope Both are fun to play, I don't think controllers are faster or more frantic than defenders. I think they are about even... but I do think it takes a different mind set to play a defender
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Not wanting to insult anyone, but surely will: Is the Defender AT more fun for those who can't keep up with being a Controller?
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My main is a controller, but I love my defenders too. They require a slightly different playstyle, so it does depend on how you like to play.
If you want something active, you can't go wrong with kin, rad or dark. Empaths can also be very active, but they're more team-centric - if you want to affect the mobs as well as your team, go for something debuffy. Personally, I feel more useful if I'm helping to battle the mobs, rather than just helping my team to battle the mobs (if you get my meaning). That's a personal preference, though. 
That's also why I prefer to use the blasts that carry secondary effects with them, such as rad, dark and sonic. As a defender, you're not going to do as much damage as most (all?) of the other ATs can, but if you can add in a nice debuff while you're chipping off their health, bonus! Every little helps, I believe, and if there is a gap in the need to use my primary, then I'm always blasting away.
If you're looking for something controllery, then I think dark/dark is the closest you'll get in the defender sets. And you'll never be without something to do if you're playing a kinetic. Give a different powerset a try! I hope you find something more to your liking.
Hi again all, thanks for the responses
You're all absolutely right about my powersets being bad choices for me. I am very tempted to start him again as something else now. I do love being in the middle of things throwing powers around all the time, and see why bubbles aren't really that way oriented.
Thinking back on the original plan for Dark Bubble, I should mention that it was a concept/idea toon. I had a mate who had a bubble defender through a lot of levels, who he deleted in the 40s for some reason.
I witnessed a bubble defender in an Eden trial holding back huge walls of Devouring Earth, and though 'cool'.
I wanted to try to make a toon that I levelled properly, but always in a team, and never on my own missions. That was the hard part. So far, DB has gotten to 21 and has one person in his contact list, the initial one, with a fully empty bar. Taking FF was to force me to find teams, and not succumb to taking my own missions part way. I wanted something that was not really useful to me alone, but would be appreciated in a team.
I will have one more attempt at him before consigning him to the waste basket though. I might as well use my respec and by my SOs before retiring him.
Can someone help me out with a concept build given the above reliance on teams? If I had a hero builder handy I'd post it, but I don't unfortunately, so I'll just throw some ideas off the top of my head:
Forcefields: Take pretty much everything.
Energy Blasts: No AoE blasts, take first blast, take 'big' power burst blast, take snipe, aim?
Flight pool: Hover, Fly
Healing pool: Aid other (3 interrupt redux, 3 heal?), Stimulant, eventually rez?
Leadership pool: Assault (1 end red), Tactics (end reds, tohit buffs?)
Any thoughts on that? I'm really thinking of powers to 22 at the moment. I'm not planning on taking stamina, as that seems rather selfish, and on a good team I should be able to pop blues constantly if I run low, plus I should only need endurance every 3.5 minutes or so.
I agree with the suggestion that energy blasts can be manageable too. I think my main problem was Energy Torrent, which really grinds my gears, and I have no idea why I took it now. I've thrown hover in as an idea so that I can knock them down instead of back if I need to. I would usually take Air Superiority, but am not really going damage as you can probably tell.
Granted I'd still be standing around most of the time, but since I'm a chatty team player, I should be able to think of something to do. Plus throwing Aid Other in there should give me something to do 
Ta for any advice! When I get home tonight I'll try to throw it into a builder and post a real build, to 22.
Oh, final thought: How does one slot bubbles properly? 3 defence, 1 end red?
Cheers!
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Any thoughts on that? I'm really thinking of powers to 22 at the moment. I'm not planning on taking stamina, as that seems rather selfish, and on a good team I should be able to pop blues constantly if I run low, plus I should only need endurance every 3.5 minutes or so.
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From what I've heard about FF, end gets very tight in later levels with mutliple toggles running, especially with leadership as well - note, this is not from personal experience (I've only played a /FF 'troller up to 14 before deciding that it was not at all suited to my play style).
Dead Calm's Defender Manifesto
reading your post made me wonder how I would actually build a ForceField defender hehe (I've tried one several times, including a FF/Nrg blast, but never got beyond lvl 10).
I think I would take stamina though... thinking that all those toggles will be a nightmare without stamina.
Anyway, you said you didn't want to solo?
Level 1: Deflection Shield -- DefBuff (A), DefBuff (3), DefBuff (11), EndRdx (39)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- Acc (A), Dmg (3), Dmg (5), Dmg (9), RechRdx (37), EndRdx (37)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- Acc (A), RechRdx (19), RechRdx (43)
Level 4: Power Blast -- Acc (A), Dmg (5), Dmg (7), Dmg (9), RechRdx (37), EndRdx (40)
Level 6: Aid Other -- Heal (A), Heal (7), RechRdx (25), RechRdx (25), Heal (33), RechRdx (33)
Level 8: Insulation Shield -- DefBuff (A), DefBuff (11), DefBuff (15), EndRdx (19)
Level 10: Hover -- Flight (A), Flight (39), Flight (40)
Level 12: Dispersion Bubble -- DefBuff (A), DefBuff (13), DefBuff (13), EndRdx (15)
Level 14: Fly -- EndRdx (A), Flight (17), Flight (17)
Level 16: Swift -- Run (A), Run (46), Run (46)
Level 18: Health -- Heal (A)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod (A), EndMod (21), EndMod (21)
Level 22: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff (A), DefBuff (23), EndRdx (23), DefBuff (34)
Level 24: Aid Self -- Heal (A), Heal (29), Heal (31), RechRdx (31), RechRdx (34), RechRdx (34)
Level 26: Maneuvers -- EndRdx (A), DefBuff (27), DefBuff (27), DefBuff (29)
Level 28: Assault -- EndRdx (A)
Level 30: Detention Field -- Acc (A), Acc (31), RechRdx (40)
Level 32: Force Bubble -- EndRdx (A), EndRdx (33), EndRdx (46)
Level 35: Tactics -- EndRdx (A), ToHit (36), ToHit (36), ToHit (36)
Level 38: Resuscitate -- RechRdx (A), RechRdx (39)
Level 41: Dominate -- Acc (A), Hold (42), Hold (42), Hold (42), RechRdx (43), RechRdx (43)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- EndRdx (A), ResDam (45), ResDam (45), ResDam (45)
Level 47: Telekinesis -- Hold (A), Hold (48 ), EndRdx (48 ), EndRdx (48 )
Level 49: Vengeance -- DefBuff (A), DefBuff (50), ToHit (50), ToHit (50)
notes:
didnt really bother with many of the secondaries, if you are team based you wont really need to attack, much. Usually think snipe is a waste of time for defenders as if you are pulling and it goes wrong you get all the aggro first... ouchy
Already mentioned I put stamina in, am sure you will need it. Left stimulant out of the medicine pool, that's personal preference as I've never really liked it. Gave you all the leadership pool. Was figuring that the def boost from maneuvers + all your bubbles has to be pretty good. And well, vengeance at 49 as thats when teams will face plant the most vs those pesky AVs
Didnt take all the FF powers as tbh I don't know enough about them and am basing my recommendations on teaming with a FF defender from mid 30s - to 50 with my controller. Think the slotting is OK for the shields but wasn't 100% sure about Force Bubble and Detention Field.
Went with the Psi epic so that you have something more to spend your endurance on when you hit the 40s as you dominate and telekenisis all the AVs and sappers
Am sure people will now pile in to correct the awful slotting mistakes, but hey as a build I think it looks quite fun. Tempted to roll it up and try
lol I like your build, take a look at these powers though (no slots done):
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
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Name: Dark Bubble
Level: 50
Archetype: Defender
Primary: Force Field
Secondary: Energy Blast
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Personal Force Field==> Empty(1)
01) --> Power Bolt==> Empty(1)
02) --> Deflection Shield==> Empty(2)
04) --> Force Bolt==> Empty(4)
06) --> Insulation Shield==> Empty(6)
08) --> Hover==> Empty(8)
10) --> Maneuvers==> Empty(10)
12) --> Dispersion Bubble==> Empty(12)
14) --> Fly==> Empty(14)
16) --> Aid Other==> Empty(16)
18) --> Swift==> Empty(18)
20) --> Health==> Empty(20)
22) --> Stamina==> Empty(22)
24) --> Repulsion Field==> Empty(24)
26) --> Assault==> Empty(26)
28) --> Tactics==> Empty(28)
30) --> Vengeance==> Empty(30)
32) --> Force Bubble==> Empty(32)
35) --> Aid Self==> Empty(35)
38) --> Resuscitate==> Empty(38)
41) --> Mass Hypnosis==> Empty(41)
44) --> Dominate==> Empty(44)
47) --> Telekinesis==> Empty(47)
49) --> Group Fly==> Empty(49)
Basically it's only got the single required secondary power Everything else is primary or pools/epic. I was running out of things to pick that looked fun at the end, which is why Group fly is in there, heh.
I'm sure that I could rearrange the powers a little better to get a nice build for 22, where I am soon, but that's one team-hungry load of powers!
I added stamina in there too, since everyone has convinced me of the lack of end i'll have. The other idea was to pull out the fitness pool and put in the concealment one, perhaps.
Any thoughts? Any cries of 'you're a crazy man!!'? Hmm...
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lol I like your build, take a look at these powers though (no slots done):
*Snip*
Basically it's only got the single required secondary power Everything else is primary or pools/epic. I was running out of things to pick that looked fun at the end, which is why Group fly is in there, heh.
I'm sure that I could rearrange the powers a little better to get a nice build for 22, where I am soon, but that's one team-hungry load of powers!
I added stamina in there too, since everyone has convinced me of the lack of end i'll have. The other idea was to pull out the fitness pool and put in the concealment one, perhaps.
Any thoughts? Any cries of 'you're a crazy man!!'? Hmm...
[/ QUOTE ]How can you actually PLAY such a build and not bore to death?
Playing an engery blaster taught me how anying knockback can be, playing a rad defender in team reinforced that. But with FF/EN you can actually use the KB well. you can corner people with it, which keeps them nicely grouped around an anchors your team has dropped. So long as there is a corner, and you have that skill a FF/EN will be a welcomed addition to a team. If you dont have that talent they'll be an anoyance to any melee types, anchor based sets and AoE junkies
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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lol I like your build, take a look at these powers though (no slots done):
*Snip*
Basically it's only got the single required secondary power Everything else is primary or pools/epic. I was running out of things to pick that looked fun at the end, which is why Group fly is in there, heh.
I'm sure that I could rearrange the powers a little better to get a nice build for 22, where I am soon, but that's one team-hungry load of powers!
I added stamina in there too, since everyone has convinced me of the lack of end i'll have. The other idea was to pull out the fitness pool and put in the concealment one, perhaps.
Any thoughts? Any cries of 'you're a crazy man!!'? Hmm...
[/ QUOTE ]How can you actually PLAY such a build and not bore to death?
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easy... all that having to time your aid other to not get interrupted!
Seriously, I think this is the most team build I have ever seen :P If I was teamed with this FF defender I would love it... oh, and would help keep the chat at an acceptable lvl not to let him get bored
I think the powers look good, I would try and have 2 attacks tho... maybe aim for the first 2 attacks from nrg blast and then respec in the 40s so you can take group fly?
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You can make /Dark controllers,
I don't think any of the Defender primaries are unique - they're all also controller secondaries (Unless I've missed something obvious).
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You can NOT make a controller with Dark Miasma, all other sets you can use though. Dark miasma is pretty much only defender I'd consider rolling nowdays... :/ Well, storm too.
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Dark/Psi is a fun build to play - although I'd be Statesman's best buddy if he let me play a Mind/Dark 'troller.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Mind/Dark? If only, oh, if only....
Rather interestingly i play pretty much that exact build, compulsary blast power and nothing more, its more active than you might think, between keeping all the buffs up, topping up health with the medicine pool, trying to keep those most in threat close for dispersion and leadership...
Plus your not watching the enemy, i find it allows you to get a better view of the big picture than most of your teammates frantically in the thick, you can spot problems, be the one to call the retreat, warn people before they stray into extra aggro, you form the heart of the team by keeping them safe in more ways than the obvious. I found it a great learning experience as you can see just how everything works...
The pellet with the poisons in the Vessel with the Pessel, the Chalice from the Palace has the brew that is true...
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Mind/Dark? If only, oh, if only....
[/ QUOTE ]
Or Illusion/Dark, and be just as annoying as those carnies...
CoX 50s: <ill/rad> <ice/ice> <fire/kin> <grav/sonic> <ice/storm> <earth/kin> <kin/elec> <cold/psy> <thugs/dark> <fire/dark> <dark/elec> <night widow> <EM/ninj> <mind/icy>
Sigh, I've been thinking hard about this, and am having trouble, so thought I would question the forumites.
It wasn't meant that way, but I can't seem to word it correctly right now. It's like mental diarrhea, I'm just typing as I think of things, so the whole post might not flow well 
I have a defender, level 21 now, that I'm not finding that much fun anymore. In truth, I'm not sure what was really that fun in the beginning, which is disturbing.
Dark Bubble is a Forcefield/Energy defender.
I am anti-knockback. I protest about kheldians and prefer not to team with them if they tend to stay in nova form. I have a friend with an Energy/Fire corrupter, who can't seem to keep his blasts under control when teaming with my brute. For S4, I was an Energy/Energy blaster for our team, he was deleted and is now making a comeback as an Ice/Energy blaster.
So maybe I should mention again that he's forcefield/energy. Yes, one of the worst powersets in the game, energy blast. Why did I choose it? Must have been in a drunken moment. I run around helping my team, and throw out a blast (because they seem to expect it), and immediately regret doing so. I only have a couple of the blasts, and can't figure out why I got any of them (apart from the mandatory one).
Ok, my question is... Why a defender? In general, why roll a defender? I have several controllers, and they are awesome. I never feel like I'm leeching, or not pulling my weight (unless I am purposely doing so, but that doesn't tend to happen) with my trollers. With Dark Bubble, I do. Is there really a good reason to take a defender over a controller with that defenders primary as a secondary?
Maybe it's the blasts that are ruining it for me. Those damned blasts.
Maybe it's the level. I think that most of my slots are red, or contain trainings waiting for that magical 22-SO level.
I have a free respec, DB has been out for a good while now, and has one from I6/ED I think. I think I will have to use it, respec in more bubble powers, no blasts (bar the 'big one'), stamina, fly, etc, and see if it makes anything better.
I really wish that I had made him FF/ something else, most likely Dark - to match the name.
Ok, so I've kind of talked myself around a wee bit.
Here's the plan:
Respec in a better build (I would post my current one but am at work, and don't recall most of it, sorry)
Get to 22, and stock em out with SOs
Try a few teams, and see if he feels better
Delete him if not.
The thing about deleting him is that he's my only defender. I'm mostly sure if he goes, he'll be replaced with a forcefield controller instead. Most likely Grav/FF, for no real reason but sounds interesting.
I have /kin, /emp, /rad controllers, all good fun too.
Not wanting to insult anyone, but surely will: Is the Defender AT more fun for those who can't keep up with being a Controller?
It seems to me that when I play a controller, it's great, everything flashing and recharging and numbers all over the place and never a second stopping, fast-paced action everywhere. But then I jump into this defender and really feel I only have half a useful AT... The buffs are great, but there's nothing there I couldn't take as a secondary on a controller, where I would have a great and unique-to-that-AT primary too.
My intent on this post was to find out what I should do with Dark Bubble. I never intended to question defenders in general, but it did turn out that way I guess.
Is an 'Offensive Defender' really a 'wannabe corrupter'? Do they work well? When I see a defender blasting, it seems to me that they should have taken a blaster, especially when they only have minimum primaries (like say, an Empath with only Healing Aura and Rez - bad sign? prob not possible).
Are the only really 'fun' defenders D3s or Rad/Rads? What makes them so? Actually, that's raises an interesting question... Can you make /dark controllers? I'm not sure now, but I don't think so. What powersets are Defender only?
Sigh. I really hope I didn't offend too many people